Bob_oz

I don't have any LDS family other than myself, wife and children so I can't comment on being that close to the issue. Over many years I have been involved in such "Disciplinary Councils" many times (its not that I am really that bad you understand - poor humour I know!) The Gospel is based on law and sometimes when a we break a law we need to take certian steps to repent. Such a step in some cases is requires this action to help one repent or to maintain the law when one is not repentant. These Councils have as a foundation love and when full love is shared the individule has a far better chance to return. The gospel is love and when we all help each other these difficult times become wonderful opportunities for progress, alas, we humans don't always show love or remember the old saying "that there but for the Grace of God go I" I have friends who sinned and be it pride or lack of loving support have not yet made it back. The gospel plan is so very good, you see again how we all become interdependant and responsible for each other. Palerider, that really was awesome, and we both know that your daughter likely had some hard times and lessons but I'd say she looks back at it as a blessing in her life today, thanks for sharing, I'd say she had a pretty good Bishop too :) Bob

In the past week I caught at BBC (UK) doco hosted by one of the "Black Adder" stars that took "the Code" apart, end product is that Brown's book is a darn good read, makes a good movie (I think the book is better) and has little/no relevance in historic fact. Then there is the seperate point it highlights, was Jesus married, there we have a different topic and one we can clearly see divides LDS and non-LDS alike. I find time and again that Ben Raines makes some logical, meaningful and rational comments that are worth a second read. That Jesus was involved in the creation, or more correctly the organisation of matter, and therefore should somehow stop Him having his own specific eternal family, as well as being my older brother and recognising that Jesus and I/we have the same eternal Father. Again so much of this view of history comes from those who write it, as has been said! There again the majority of us would find the thought of having physical relations with a brother or sister as unthinkable but if we are Christians and accept the creation story and from an eternal view I am married to my sister! From an LDS view its interesting that we have qoutes from GA's/respected writers indicating that Jesus may/was/could have been/etc married but I know of none saying He was not - does any one? Don't you just love a good mystery with no clear cut, cast in stone, answer? Bob

I have to agree with Shanstress on her lead post, shame we have to get spam right into thread. Then we got off to some good thoughts, I like to read for relaxation/recreation (as well as study), mostly on the bus or over lunch at the office when I need some down time. I tend to get into an author and see him through, like Tom Clancy (the real thing not so much the spin offs) read everything, and all of Dan Brown and others, at the moment I am hooked on Harry Turtledove and the Great War/American Empire alternative history series where the Utah Saints get to be bad guys. Have a great week folks I am off to the Sydney Temple for the week, catch you next weekend Bob

WOW! I was of two minds to post for fear of being caught out in the cross fire! First I'd like to go back to the original question. Yes I have read the book and seen the movie, I have read all of Brown's books and they are a really good read. I am waiting with great interest for the next where it looks like the Masons and maybe we get a good going over! If I was RC I'd be ticked off that one element of my religion was being taken to task in such a manner, but I thought the RC's really got it bad in Angels and Demons, makes this look almost tame, taken together and I'd not be too happy if i was RC. But there again it sold and sold really well so it has to be ok, right! Regarding the book I have one big concern of its effect on the minds of those who think they are reading fact in a good story. In the opening pages of the book right before the story starts there is a page headed: "Facts" that indicates that certian key items in the book are facts, this tends to lead some readers to think that the foundation of the book IS in fact, where the only real fact is that its a darn good read. Again Brown does this so very well, some facts, a little dressing, a good story and we have a new view on history! But its making him the money, right! People want to believe in some things, the search for the Holy Grail, the resting place of the Ark etc but as with so many movies or books there is the danger for some that they believe it as "gospel" and for most people reading 600 pages of the code is 600 more pages than they have read of the Gospel, its subtle and it can lead away some less prepared. After all Brown is not the first, i am sure that there are people who think the "Life of Brian" was more than a good laugh. Regarding the many points discussed in detail in some posts I'd say that for those who have a mind set towards one view or the other there is plenty of points to make, to my knowledge there is no clear answer in doctrine and the facts as we have seen here can be read two ways. For me I find the answer to be clear in the light of eternal truth. I will say this, if the Lord was married, if he had children in this life it would be a most sacred, eternal and priceless element of His life and maybe we don't need to know that at this time. We know that we are commanded to marry and have children both of which will be eternal for us if we are worthy. My eternal family are sacred to me, I am sure Jesus family , however you see tham, are sacred to Him. I did enjoy one comment about having sex with His creation, I am now deeply concerned that I have married my sister!!! (ok, so you don't want to laugh, that was just a joke!) Maybe the facts are contained in the records of the RC church that we, nor historians are permitted to view or know. Time will tell. Ok, I will now head back into my bunker before you folks wake up and read this! Have a great day, after all its today that matters! Bob

Some years ago I was briefly in a site like this, I guess from the way people have spoken it may have been the old one, anyway I wanted to find an LDS group that would be of benefit to my gospel growth and generate an increase in personal study, knowledge and understanding within my busy lifestyle. My focus is on LDS doctrine and I am not interested in conflict, I remember those years ago that other group had one lady who was really anti and that was the reason I left, and I have to say when I started reading here the number on non-lds concerned me but the respect shown by all (well most of the time) is really good so I am still here. Life is short we have to use it well Bob

I have just finished reading these posts and I'd like to say how pleased I am to see the cross section of opinion from normal people. We all know that this issue is not only your issue, British immigration led to the London race riots not so long ago, just this year in Sydney race differences raised riots, France and most of Europe has rioted and is waiting to ignite again, in Africa its tribal and on we can go. For many reasons we open our doors and hearts to people to give them a better life. Others open the door for profit and greed. Some feel unaccepted and retain ties with their homeland over making connection working for acceptance in their new land, some live with us and declare they are Mexican, Greek, Italian when they are citizens of the USA or Australia, it is not hard that others feel they are anti-USA or Australian (yours and mine) by their actions I really feel the hurt from our sister lumberjacksdaughter and understand it all too well. In Australia we have a activity when we visit some of the large cities ....called: "spot the Aussie" because they can be in the minority (at least those that look australian) Intollerance is a BIG issue and I think may be the big issue of the future, frankly I see no easy answer because sometimes the more love you show the more some will see this as a weakness and take advantage. When you who are rejected because you have become the minorityit becomes very difficult This land is my land , this land is your land .......but only if both want to share in mutual respect Bob

This is a challenging Q I'd like to go back to the States again (was there in 82) But I'd love to visit the old home land again, England (last there in 82) After that I'd start to share dreams! Bob

Thanks Heather for the detailed references regarding Jesus/marriage/children I found it a most rewarding read and it was good to have reviewed this again. I see that we all have differing views, one way or the other, that is good for the enquiring mind but I like to think there are a number of reasons we don't have our answers in doctrine, some I have mentioned before and in addition I would add faith, importance for our own salvation and one other, sacred nature of the topic. I have drawn my own conclusions I base on what I feel to be sound gospel logic, in keeping with the principles of the teachings of the Church and on comments made by those with a better understanding than I of gospel issues. I believe Jesus was married for the reasons stated plus that he was the example of all that is right, it is right that all of Gods children marry in this life (ok, I know we can see exceptions, that is not what we have here) and where there is no recorded doctrine for us I feel sure the Lord would have demonstrated the right to his followers. Had he have been married I feel sure he would not have refused his wife(s) that which is only right, children. I believe we have two things here, Jesus who did all that was right by the commandments and Jesus the Christ who was that one special brother who did for us what we could not/cannot do for ourselves and by so doing made a special connection with each of us who would accept Him. If the Bible specificly stated the Lord was married the church has is custodian of the oldest records would have a big issue with its position regarding the clergy. I don't think we should over look the sacred nature of the Lords marriage/family, is it not one of the most important eternal elements in our progress and was not Jesus perfect? It is a wonderful discussion and maybe the Lord will release more that we may learn of the doctrine for ourselves, but there again the commandment has always been there for us. My only regret is that I'd love to spend more time here, learning from you all Bob

Hey Bob, Actually No. 6 confessed to Baltar that she was an angel in one of the episodes. Wikipedia offers us this info: Six constantly remains in the memory of Dr. Baltar, appearing real to him, yet invisible to everyone else. She suggested the reasons behind this were possibly a computer chip implant or insanity over his guilt. When Baltar underwent a "brain scan" (which appeared similar to an MRI), it revealed no sign of a computer chip or any other foreign object in his brain. While this briefly led Baltar to think that he had truly gone insane, he then realized that the vision of Number Six he sees could not possibly be a hallucination generated by his subconscious mind, because she was aware of facts that his own mind could not possibly know. For example, Number Six told Baltar that the first Human/Cylon Hybrid would be born in the ship's brig, and soon after the Caprican version of the Cylon Sharon Valerii (pregnant with the human Karl Agathon's child) was imprisoned in it. When Baltar confronted Six with this, she admited that she was neither a computer chip nor a hallucination produced by mental instability. When Baltar then asked just who or what she was, she simply replied that she was "an angel of God sent here to protect you". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_Six_(B...star_Galactica) And you must remember that both the humans and cylons are very religious/spiritual people. The humans believe in many gods and the cylons believe in one true God, especially No. 6. Have a great day yourself! M. Hi Maureen, OK, I have done my share of investigation and can say that I am now up with it, thanks for the help. Looking now towards session 3 I note that so far of the 12 human cylons we can identify 7 No 3 D'Anna Biers No 5 Aaron Doral No 6 Gina/Shelley No 8 Sharon ? Leobem Conoy ? Simon ? Brother Cavil so we have 5 to yet show themselves .... I guess i need to watch the backgrounds a little more I suspect they are out there! Regards Bob

I read the book some time ago and found it a great read and I am looking forward to the movie. The biggest danger of such movies is that people see this as 100% fact and so a movie can distort history. Pure truth does not always sell so well. That the RC church has a great wealth of undisclosed ancient material is I think taken by many as a given, material that for all seekers of truth would provide a life time of study but I don't see this material coming to us in the near future. I have seen people make a strong case for the Lord being married in this life and find that for me it may be a likely consideration. Consider some of these points. We have two elements in the life of Jesus, he came to this world to complete His mission and, I believe, to fulfil all righteousness, including obtaining a body, keeping the commandments and making all the covenants needed for Him to return to his Father. In this the commandment to multiply and replenish is applicable both to keep the commandment and as a blessing for himself. Now it is said that Jesus started his ministry at 30 to meet certain requirements/expectations of the Jews and for one to be taken seriously as a teacher/Rabi Jesus would likely have had to demonstrate qualification, maturity (age) stability and marriage, as I understand marriage was a requirement of a Rabi and most would not have taken him seriously had he not qualified. Some regardthat the first miracle, of the wine, was actually his wedding as he fulfilled the groom’s obligation under custom to provide the wine. I think it is correct that we don’t have any specific scriptural reference to Jesus being married but then how many references are there to God the Father being married and that we have a Mother in heaven too? I see many good reasons that the family of Jesus would not be recognised in scripture, how many people today would flock to his family rather than his word. By contrast, how many neo-Nazi members would have a centre of focus had Adolf left the world a son! If the Da Vinci code is seen by people as more than a good read and a distraction or recreation in life then it serves not to build up but to break down the most important episode in history and move us away from our inspired path. There is, however, an opportunity here for inspired discussion if we have the heart to say “I know” about the mission of Jesus Christ and the restoration of his Church. Bob

Hi Bob, After I wrote my reply I later saw the episode you are referring to, here in Canada there are 2 more episodes left for S2. All I can speculate is that there is a bond between No. 6 & Baltar, more so then either of them realized until the Cylon attack. Their connection might be similar to Vulcan bonding. Both No. 6 & Baltar were greatly influenced by each other during their very intimate relationship - so much so that neither one can let go. If you remember the Pegasus episode, Baltar gave this very touching speech to Gina (No. 6) why she was still being held prisoner, it kind of explained his feelings towards her duplicate and how she had such a influence on his thoughts and being. Maybe the same follows for the resurrected No. 6. The Cylons hate the humans but in their quest to deceive the humans by looking like them, they unintentionally made some 'types' to be too human (ie Sharon, since both Sharons have shown love and concern for humans). It could be some genetic anamoly, which No. 6 seems to also have. That episode was very interesting. I agree that some of the story-telling can get a little confusing, like the Apollo and the black market episode, but eventually I think they piece it together well with much to think about by us viewers. M. Hi Maureen, I think I need to pay greater attention some of the things happening here as I am still not with the "angel" concept it seems to me in the realm of Sci Fi a spiritual element does not cut it, I guess i could have accepted it on a one way basis but now we have both 6 and Baltar being each others angels with such incredible effect, unless of course Baltar is Cylon and does not know it. Can you tell I am struggling with this element of the plot! Now I assume the last episode is set on New Caprica, oh, maybe you have not seen that yet if you have 2 to go, OK, how about we discuss this further after each of the last two you have to watch? Have agreat day Bob

Dr. Who is the only show I watch (and I love it!) but I "hear" a lot of shows that my hubby and daughter watch. Hi Jenda, I get Dr Who from the UK screening and I have to say that the new 05/06 series are great, after series 1 I am looking for threads that are carried through the series. I was concerned that bringing back some of the old characters like the Daleks, Sarah-Jane etc but its been awesome. There is more to it than meets the eye. Bob

I have seen both movies, I thought the BoM movie was "ok" not the same quality as the Work and the Glory which I found portrayed the spirit behind the story better, the BoM movie I thought tried to grab for the stun effect and failed, some of the parts simply are not in the book, there is a dramatization(s) effect rather than a contact with the spiritual message and that is where it lost out but I also thought it lost as being a tad amaturish hollywood. I guess if yopu are going that way (hollywood) you need a presence from at least one actor, now if they could have got hold of Charlton Heston! (is he still alive?) Maybe I expected too much. W and the G was pretty good I didn't think it try to go Hollywood and I thought it worked. Considering LDS type films where the film is good quality and really much better than I expected take time to look at "Saints and Soldiers", outstanding. Bob

Hi one and all, Well having posted a few times maybe I should introduce myself. I am Bob and live on the island state of Tasmania in Australia having moved here in 1969 at age 19 from my home in the UK. I joined the Church in my teens in England. My wife and I were married in the NZ temple 32 years ago and we have 6 children aged 30 to 19. I have served in many Church callings and no few years of community service. Why am I here, for me its to learn and be involved with like minded people, I have no desire for confrontation, just to learn and gain experience in my prime objective in life, returning home and helping other do the same. I enjoy meaningful discussion designed to make me think and so far have enjoyed what I have seen, I can see that there are some key players here that spend some quality time posting and I look forward to learning and beinvolved to the degree time permits. Regards Bob

Hi Bob, IIRC, No. 6 explained her presence to Baltar has his ability to have visions, she in essence is an angel to him. She brings him information, and her visionary presence has the power to effect his senses. The more recent No. 6, aka Gina, is from the episode called Pegasus. She is to the Pegasus, as Sharon is to the Galactica, except Sharon is treated more or less with respect, while Gina was disrespected in everyway you could imagine. It was Baltar that saved her and helped her escape. M. Hi Maureen, Ok, so No. 6 is an angel to Baltar, does that mean that Baltar is an angel to No. 6 where he appears to her in her reborn state on Caprica? Then is this leading to Baltar being one of the 12 human cylons? I find the multiple levels of thinking and plot to sometimes be challenging but at the same time love them ... I have never been very smart at crosswords! Bob

AK, A clear and concise posting of the LDS view. When getting deep on to this subject invariable lead us into the relms of the unknown where faith has to lead and where in the end we have to identify that spending time will only take us away from our critical mission in this life. But the unknown and unexplained will always hold an intrigue for the sons of Adam. One can only wonder that God smiles at our conjectures when he has provided the Book of Abraham for us! regards Bob

Hi Maureen, Awesome! Firefly was special, I hear the company who made Serenity have the option to make 2 more movies, one can only hope. I just caught up with BSG S2 E20 today and I am ready for the start of S3, its interesting to know there a 12 Cylon human models, I am trying to remember all that I can identify and how many we have to find, I wonder what twists await us? So how do you read the ability of Baltar to still see No 6 (the Canadian blonde) and then more recently No 6 to see Baltar! Have a great day Bob

Hello Jewel Stone, One thing I would add to all that have gone before me is to go more than just one endowment session, I have seen people do their own session and leave. Take time after the session to go over things in your own mind then go back and do another session and if you have the time and opportunity another. The Temple is a learning experience and when we are attentive we learn something more times then not. Then I recommend going back as often as time and money permit, you will find great blessings await you there and your mind and spirit will be receptive to learning. This is after the event for you now so I hope its been a choice experience for you, if you are challenged from what you found my recommendation is go again. all the best Bob

We have always had food storage, plus a vegtable garden, plus laying chickens for eggs (and compost) plus fruit trees. We try to eat good and healthy We buy our food when its on special and in large quantities to replenish our food store, so we eat what we store and get it at a lower price. We also buy in bulk, like flour and suger. In my years we have not been directly effected by war but we have by other issues where we have needed cash for bills, at one time we lived for 3 months on food storage to make ends meet, it was one great blessing to be so prepared. We have preserved but as the children have departed we do less of that, we have dried many things for keeping and also made jams all have extended ourstorage ability and the quality of what we eat. Home storage is an awesome blessing that has saved us in so many ways. Bob

What a nice topic, I was thrilled to read how alike we are, ok here is mine, but you have to remember I come from the land down under. Number one American show in a long long time West Wing (I have seen them all and I am right up to date, awesome, what a shame its ending) High commendation for Battlestar Galactica - the plot just gets better From the UK one of the great Sci Fi programs that is just getting better Doctor Who These are my 3 must see programes. Beyond that life is too short to spend hours in front of the box I was so interested to see Coranation Street is still going, it must be like 40 years old! Black adder was awesome Did anyone follow "Firefly" that was great before it was axed, another US Sci fi it has come out recently as the movie "Serenity" very short sighted canning that one from TV Bob

Hi Christos and Pushka, I was interested in your stories, can I relate my own experiences. I was 16 when I first met the missionaries at my home in the UK, Tonbridge in Kent and like you I had challenges from my family, I am the only member, my mother refused permission for me to be baptised for about 18 months. During that period of time I continued to attend Church and Church activities, I read the Book of Mormon and continued to prepare for the day I could be baptised. The little branch in Tunbridge Wells met in a small hall where the smell of beer from the night before was a weekly companion so it was not the best of locations. Leading up to my baptism I encountered some tough decisions, emotional losses and no small degree of strife but I was baptised and with it came the assurance of the Gift of the Holy Ghost and what a difference that makes. That was back in 1967, in these past 39 years I have seen so many good people challenged as they approach making important covenants with the Lord, specificly at baptism and at the temple I know that Satan will stop at nothing to pull us away from these critical steps in our progression. I know for me Joining the Church was coming home, I know through a multitude of experiences that it was the correct decision no matter the challenges or the cost. I am sure thet both of you feel the same good feelings as you discuss eternal issues with the people here.. Regards Bob

Its been a few days since I last posted on this topic and I have to say that its been a pleasure reading your postings. I am heartened that we are not alone with challenges in the community (I didn't think were ever were) the world over, these challenges serve to remind us all that these indeed are the last days. Shantress, please I do hope you understand where we are coming from when we talk about Priesthood v male domination, please don't misinterpret caring concerning love for control, sometimes the best of intentions may come across badly, the best of doctors can have a shocking bedside manner but it does not mean the treatment prescribed is done so without the best intent. There are a lot of us men who will take a lifetime to come close to getting it right, maybe that is why we have the Priesthood! As far as financial control goes Mrs S put it very well, in our ward a better part of our available funds are used by the Sisters, Young Women, Relief Society, Primary, Activities Committee, Library and yes there are guidelines for the expenditure of what we regard as the Lords funds and yes there is a programme to work within but I don't recall anyone unhappy where they understand these points. Bob

I have to disagree with this (of course :) ). In my experience, women cannot even meet in the building without a 'member of the priesthood' present. I'm not sure if this is a churchwide policy, or just my then-bishop's policy. Anyone know? All of the financial decisions are ultimately made by men in the church. As for the argument that women have the task of bearing and raising children and that takes a lot of time. There are only so many years in our lives that we have and raise children. And there are plenty of women who cannot have children. I think this is a lame excuse. I saw a very interesting 'article' once that someone put together. It asked the question, "Would any man join a church that..." Some of the points below it were, only women are allowed to speak for God, only women could perfrom church ordinances, women covenanted to obey Mother in Heaven, but the men convenanted to obey their wives, at age 12 the girls got the priesthood when getting into teen years but boys got a 'Manhood medallion', the BoM had only 4 references to men but the rest was about women, etc., etc., etc. I wonder if the Bishops policy that sisters should not be in the chapel without a priesthood holder in attendance was designed to regiment women kind under the long arm of male domination or just maybe he was aware of concerns for the ladies being out after dark in the community, our Bishop does not make that rule but the caring concern is good for even in our little corner of the world we have problems right in the car park

A very interesting discussion, my wife and I have been through this 6 times and of course watched others do the same. We decided to allow each child to participate as they desired and found if ma and pa were eating the bread and drinking the water they wanted to also, we made no demands just offered. We taught that the Sacrament was a special time, toys or books came out only after the Sacrament and we selected a group of special items reserved for sacrament, quiet soft toys and gospel related books, there was always a parents knee and a cuddle and if they had to be taken out they came back in again or they sat quietly if we had to stay in the foyer. I am no expert but I have found children get to understand how to control a parent from a young age, do this and get that, we found that starting at day one you take control or else one day you wake up to a smiling child who is the new ruler of your life and don't they know it! For the organised teaching of children we have Primary with some wonderful people but Sacrament is for all members to attend and is also a teaching opportunity and not just for those with children, those who show distaste at the conduct of others have an opportunity too. I have found that in every sacrament meeting there is something for me if and when I am willing to listen to both what is said and what the Spirit has to tell me. All to often I depend on the quality speaker to reach me but I am slowly learning that those who are learning to give a good talk may some day have the quality if I give them my attention. Sacrament meetings are 70 minutes of quality opportunity, I just hope I can do better this week and the week after to be worthy of the opportunity.

Outstanding comment Winnie, I find it fascinating that when we don't like something we say the Church should not comment, yet we go to church to to be closer to God (well I assume we do!) The comment Church leaders make are based on the commandments we say we follow, some comment is a don't do this, murder for example, or we recommend, like in the issue of working wife's, in the end its down to choice. With the choice comes blessings. Some times we just have to be obedient. My wife and I decided with our first child that she would stay home and support the family as a home maker, 6 children and 20 years later she re-entered the workforce, at first part time and later full time to pick up her career which she has shined in. 3 years ago I had a cardiac arrest while at work and my wife came real close to being greatly blessed for being back in the workforce and able to support herself. We (yes I repeat its WE) have always made decisions based on gospel teachings, our covenants, and fasting and prayer, we sometimes didn't understand the way we had to go but in time we knew it was right. OK, last point, why do Church leaders in all positions make comments, suggestions etc where some say they should just be quiet .......... because they/we care .... they are plenty of people out there who say nothing! Have a great day Bob