Bob_oz

Hi Monica, personally I appreciate your comment in these threads, your faith and appreciation of the scriptures is a standard to us all, I for one know I for one would be well served by a better understanding of the standard works. There will not be an understanding or agreement on or of what the Lord has provided for us in this life, if there was there would be no need for faith and trust and endurance. If science was seen to up hold God there would be less need for faith. The debate as we see here will rage till the Lord returns and even then? The mind of men and women will be shaped by knowledge, understanding, faith, anger, revenge, pride etc. Bob

Hi Maureen and thanks for the links you posted I will get to them as time permit and I appreciate the post Bob

Today I was reading from a site called Biblestudy.org an article regarding the content and many versions of the Bible translations, I think its worth a read. If anyone is aware of any denomination affiliation of those who run Biblestudy.org I'd be interested to know. The article seems to me to indicate that over time and the translations, elements of the teachings contained in the original text have changed and/or the meaning changed and that depending on the Bible version adopted by a denomination or individual so the goes the teaching. http://www.biblestudy.org/basicart/kjverror.html Just a thought Bob

Well Jason you must do as you must do and yes an opposition either strengthens or breaks down so you are fulfilling a purpose. I have always smiled when people state the facts; science not so long ago stated the fact that the world was flat, sail too far, fall off the edge! Today learned man tells use "we know" as the facts for so much of life when I am sure that in a few hundred years time knowledgeable people will look back and say how blind were they at the turn of the millennium! But there again perception is fact for the one who perceives. I don't find I am bored with learning but I am bored with conflict for conflicts sake.

Thank you “Outshined” for the defense of my character in my absence, the time differences mean I can’t be here when such comments are made, not that I would be sitting here waiting for them. Jason I didn’t start this thread with a lie but with a quote and as “Outshined” has shown there is more than one to be found, also, it was presented to demonstrate that some elements of Christianity have/are making some pretty specific changes away from the Bible and I was wondering if others here were aware of similar approaches in the world. I accept that the Pope has not made the statement but I think you must agree it’s not just “a stake president” making a statement but a rather large chunk of the RC church who not acting alone but as an authorized part of the whole. I would also point out that you are quick to select and quote from individuals who support your views against the Church but attack me when I make a quote and ask a simple question! Again I return to my original post: “and I am wondering if other denominations have indicated a change of view toward Bible content, I understand that the RC view is where science "discredits" Bible teachings, for example the first 11 chapters of Genesis, that homosexualality is not a sin, etc” I find that I hear almost weekly of the denomination or that changing the “rules” and I ask in all honesty are there parts of the Bible no longer accepted? Bob.

Today I was reading that the RC church announced late last year: "THE hierarchy of the Roman Catholic Church has published a teaching document instructing the faithful that some parts of the Bible are not actually true" and I am wondering if other denominations have indicated a change of view toward Bible content, I understand that the RC view is where science "discredits" Bible teachings, for example the first 11 chapters of Genesis, that homosexualality is not a sin, etc. Regards Bob

one thing i have found...very difficult to attend while traveling with young children. most temples do not have a nursery. since my wife and i do not like to attend seperately for each other, i have found if you call some temples, like nuacoo, they now the name of someone local who will babysit. or if you find out the Young Women's presidency, they usually know someone. Some will charge, as this is what they do for extra money, others will do for free, but usually try to give at least a 20 for a half day. most refuse. this sometimes may take 2-3 weeks advance planning to make the necessary contacts. Miztrniceguy We found in the past the same sort of issue with the family, added to that we have a 2 hour flight to Sydney and 1 hour flight to Melbourne, we use Sydney because accomodation is better.cheaper/closer and we go for 4 - 5 days work at the temple normally 4 sessions a day, our focus being on the Temple. Over the years we have not been able to afford it as often as we like but the children are no longer an issue and we get there more often now, sometimes business gets me there alone, other times my wife will take a week off and go but mostly we go together, either way its the most special of times. Bob

I'd like to add my thanks to this comment and for all the efforts Heather and the Mods put in, I once helped friends by looking after a board while they went on vacation, so much work! I have to once more demonstrate my ignorance, there are a number of things I don't know how to do, for example: How does PM's work? How do I gain access to the secure fourm? Where and how do I find answers to other questions I may have from time to time like these? Thanks for your help Bob

My thanks for posting the “Rules” again. I have to say that I joined this board for good positive LDS discussion and frankly I find that although in general the thoughts are good the over riding theme is not proactive in the LDS domain but in the LDS defending the faith. I am challenged to see the number of posts that are negative toward the LDS teachings, the number of times the LDS leadership both past and present are addressed in a less than kind or respectful manner, I find referring to the Prophet of the restoration as “Smith” as insulting, but that is just me. I am disappointed at those who state they are “LDS” and then by their actions are only here to attack the Church and its members and yes it’s still an attack no matter how subtle the comment tries to be. Frankly there is false representation all too much. It has been remarked that there is limitations placed on discussions and that is limiting the free flow of comment and hence the number of participants, frankly I think there are a lot of LDS who would love a place to get right into good gospel discussions designed to enlighten, build up and strengthen but we know that most of the posts are ruled by the antagonists who for a range of reasons are not looking to build up but to break down. In this thread alone we see some pointers, Serg, who lists himself as LDS but over recent days has started to come out and tell us how much he is opposed to the Church makes this comment “There is the same commitment in exmormons to tell the TRUTH to their still mormon brethren, just as mormons have it to convince christians how apostate they are.” Do you regard yourself as an exmormon here to tell the TRUTH to the LDS here? And what is the truth you speak of? Your mindset for things you either choose to object to or don’t understand or cannot exercise faith in? I would be interested to know if there are teachings in the Church you do have a testimony of? As for Jason, well I actually respect you for your honesty, knowledge and character and that you admit to being here to have fun, I just think it an incredible shame that you cannot put all that you have and all that you are to better use. I can see that “sqallan” is known better by long term members than I but I just do not comprehend why he would make 1235 posts in a group he has no interest in if not as some form of sport or cyber debating society and absolutely no interest in the objectives of the board. We have mentioned others who come in, start a thread, post six times stating honest challenges and a desire for help only to demonstrate later a clear pre-mind set that is darn near Anti! And good caring people waste time trying to help, the rest of us waste time reading and we find the number of posts is down! In the main I find the comments here are pretty good, too much them and us (who ever us may be) and the people good and considerate with a desire to learn. If any one takes offence at what I have said I regret it but seeing the discussion was rolling I thought I had to put in. As in all matters I relate my comments from my own perception and as a mere mortal greatly subject to error. Have a great Sabbath Bob

London, endowed New Zealand, married Sydney Perth L A S L C Hawaii

Outstanding views from both the Captain and PC, thank you. I have to say in recent days I have been a little disappointed at some very Anti-LDS comments and also some bigoted member comments on here (at least that is how I perceived it). and I have wondered if i really want to be involved. On the up side there are some very good people here too. Bob

Some times I think we need to consider the reason a member starts a thread and try to restrain our human desires to stand on the high ground launching personal anti-non-LDS or anti-LDS rhetoric. Its not a Christlike attribute and far from the purpose of this group. I have to say for myself that too often we do not demonstrate the principle of love one to another (including me). If you follow the posts you will see that "Church" is not the only issue this couple have and attacking one anothers beliefs/conduct does little to help our sister. I will now relinquish the high ground as I am sure some feel I need a mirror. (sorry mine are all cracked!) With love Bob

One element that I feel is worth highlighting in this thread is Covenant. Temple Sealing (unlike life marriage) in the form of the marriage of two living individuals is an Eternal Covenant that reflect the great importance God places on Family. There is a reluctance to cut these ties. At the same time, in wisdom, the opportunity is given for all Gods sons and daughters (by starting again) to make and keep these covernants that have such meaning for the eternities. Indeed no matter the changes that are made due to divorce as a covenant is involved there will also be an accounting in the eternities. I know that the God has all things in hand, that He is perfect in His dealings with His children and will deny us no blessing if we are worthy. Bob

Hi Steflou, Well that is good news that you have sound support and staying strong, your example of true values, love, understanding, concern and compassion will go a lot further to reaching your husbands heart than any discussion on right and wrong. The thing now is to build communication between the two of you and it appears from what you have said that its going to fall to you to encourage such communication. Frankly I would think he has other concerns than just the Church, I imagine he is not really a jerk and that there are other issues to be discussed, firstly from his side so you know the whole picture, do you feel this open and frank discussion is possible? It seems that your children are pretty normal, at 17 he wants to spread his wings and what ever he does now is his choice, again consistant example is your tool and faith that he will be ok, in the end he is accountable for his own actions and that is how it should be, but he is not the issue is he. The relationship is the issue and you have some deep inner searching to do as to your future and the future of the relationship, whatever you decided should only come after talking with him calmly with a prayer in your heart for guidence, there are miracles happening all the time so if there is still room don't give you. Again, obtain good counsel you can trust, your Bishop would be my first choice, beware of do-gooders no matter how well meaning. All the very best Bob

WOW! The big single I see on this topic is that the world changes by the example of the few (stars, media etc) and its this change in standards that ever so slowly takes us away from the Gospel and God. If I had not the Gospel would I marry, frankly, most likely not because its socially acceptable not to, actually its financially benifial sometime not to! I always find Lindy's comments very sound but I also find Monica very knowligable. When we consider the individual the Lord expects us to not Judge others, of course we make judgements all the time do I want my children reading this seeing that etc, but the gospel is a wonderful blend of doing your very best and at the same time forgiving the limitations of others. But when the actions of the few set the tone for the many there comes the issue of the bigger picture, I feel Monica has the big picture pretty well understood, who and what do we stand for? There are I am sure many others who are lesser lights doing wonderful works from their high station in life but then take a stand on something that offends us, we need to make a stand against the sin and not the sinner for we can be sure that in the end as they influance others so will they be accountable to the Lord. Bob

That is a long period of inactivity for him and whatever his reason he is unlikely to remember the feeling of the Spirit from then. How do your boys feel about Church? This question is for you to answer, not to tell us, are there other issues in your relationship that put the marriage at risk? How well do you talk together, how well do you handle family challenges, financial, children, work, personal husband/wife relations (sex) etc - again this is for you to consider/know not us. If there are issues other than Church it may be that Church is catching the brunt of things which if you are living the Gospel will not be right as we both know that gospel teachings enhance our family relations. If there are other issues counselling may be a consideration, choice of a counsellor is critical so take the time to sound them out first, some have some very poor ideas for a Christian/LDS. Prayer, comes highly recommended, add fasting and a lot of pondering the scriptures and listening to the Spirit. Talk to your Bishop, get a blessing also. Find the time to sit down alone with your husband and discuss your relationship, your children, your plans, dreams, hopes and make notes and yes include personal physical relations (the s word again). Discuss where you want to be in 5, 10, 20 years time and what is not happening that you want to do now. It is not the best time to tell him to get is act together so he can take you to the temple! Just focus on the immediate needs. You note that I say "you" as in both but at the same time focus on letting him express his desires. Find quality time together, it may not be often but it needs to be quality, it may only be short. I feel that all of these communication is the critical element. Remember that you are never alone. Bob

Hero is such a poor word. I like Lindy's view above. Real people doing real things that never get noticed. My step-father (also my mothers cousin) was one of those historical heros, a pilot in the Battle of Britain (listed 9th or there abouts for kills) and to his credit he said little about it. But the real people who act when needed are just as great, actually greater. The ordinary people who keep someone alive after a heart attack or cardiac arrest till aid gets there, the friends who can listen without telling you how you must fix it, the spouse who never judges - just encourages, the person who always encourages everyone and never knocks anyone, the person who does it when they say they will - no matter what, the list is endless. The honest - now today that is courage. Bob

The purpose of life is... To prove ourselves in all things by the exercise of agency of choice and learn by experience to become more like our Heavenly Father. To obtain a physical body. Bob

I really enjoyed some of the comments here, “a more important lesson to learn from this would be to speak nicely to people” is a pearl from Shanstress “Soulsearcher said: My point is that it's the spirit that needs to change not the word usage”. Outstanding because as the spirit changes so does the word usage Our society seems to be lazy and use swearing where they are unable to express themselves in English, young people seem unable to put a sentence together without the F word in public but there again some of that is an intent to offend or be seen as big people – I have yet to understand that logic! The most vulgar of swearing seems to now be accepted and by that I mean in law. There is also an element of different words meaning different things to either different people, USA and Australia and changed meaning over time, for example in my day the word “stuffed” was a watered down F word (depending on context of course) but my children say it has nothing to do with the F word and its not that bad! The key I feel is a desire to improve self, if we want to do that we are actively moving away from anything that is regarded as swearing. We develop self control in all situations, or as Soulsearcher says we change the spirit, we know our language and care how we use it and as Shanstress says “we talk nicely” to each other. Did the Lord curse the chair he kick in the dark? I don’t think so, and regarding the Temple instant, “rebuked in very strong terms” does NOT mean the Lord was swearing at them, I can say: you fiends of the eternal pit and that would be strong words for any Christian or I could add some swearing to highlight my comment and all that does is demonstrate my lack of control, The Lord didn’t swear and that is our goal too. Bob

Hi Maureen, I agree again the relationship we build on a one to one basis is the core to our development, knowing God for ourself is critical. Enjoy the yard work, there are times in the winter that I think that snow might keep me inside but we have to maintain the garden, sow and plant all year, still I don't miss the snow. Bob

Hi Maureen, Totally agree its all a matter of agency, freedom to choose and we sure have plenty of choice out there Are you satisfied they are all right as long as they preach Christ and have faith. Bob. ......... PS are enjoying any good sci fi these days, Dr Who out of the UK is awesome B

PC I think your comment supports my point that the different denominations are so that "man" can choose, Booth forms the Salvo's because the "Christians" didn't accept the rough and ready Christians, so we have a new option for worship. Yes there is a lot of "coming together" in the faith but a lot of RC's (for example) are totally convinced that they are the one true Church ordained of God, founded by Jesus Christ through Peter and there in is their authority, many will say that everyone else left the RC Church. I have one RC friend who will under no circumstances enter any other denomination building/church as that would be herecy. Whatever the reason the multitude of denomiations exsist to give man options for worship determined by man. I think its wonderfull that you are seeking and I hope that with an open mind and open heart you will find what you are looking for. Your brother Bob

Well folks I don't know how long it has taken me but i have just completed reading all 45 posts on this topic. Let me say right off, that in the short time I have been reading and to some small degree contributing to these threads that I have come to respect both the quality of character and the quality of knowledge that contributors have here, I guess that is why I still take my time to log in. After reading this thread I have to say I have been a little disappointed with some comments from both sides, lets face it the topic was never to be agreed. I find myself "off side" (read that as mildly offended) to implied thoughts of the "Christians" seeming to mean all Christians other than LDS agreeing on a specific point of doctrine and therefore LDS are not Christian. I find that of the 100's if not 1000's of Christian organisations the only point they do agree upon is the LDS view is herecy. And why do we have so many Christian organisation, is it so that the individual can choose how they want to be a Christian and is God well pleased with this? The many churches don't agree, that is why they are there, be it the way to baptise or not, be it the intepretation of scripture they exsist for mans pleasure not Gods. The comment has been made, and correctly, that we need to base the "new" on the established scripture but sometimes we have to be dependant on personal revalation, My Father talking to me of things I am entitled to have His Spirit relate and testify to my Spirit and for me that is only of my family and I, plus other responcibilities I may have. If we are dependant on the things we accept as scripture as the single benchmark for spiritual confirmation we can have problems, the Jews use the old testament as the benchmark and find a challenge with the prophetic teachings of Christ we accept as the New Testament. (just an example) I was pleased to see that PC is reading the BofM, I wonder PC what is your reason to read it? At times I also wonder what is your reason to spend so much of your time here in a site dedicated to forwarding the LDS belief, teachings and knowledge between Church members and friends? If you are reading the BofM with a view to understanding where we are coming from or to confirm for yourself that its the work of the dark side, maybe you might want to reconsider this as a good use of your time, please understand I don't want you to stop reading but I do want you to have the very best chance of learning from the time you give to it. I am sure that many have referred you to Moroni 10: 3-5 (most say 4-5 I add 3) as being the key to the value of reading the book. This is one of the most powerful promises the Lord has ever given us but it needs to be understood, may I just highlight some elements and by no means all: Ponder in your heart, I am sure you understand this principle and how critical it is to be open and receptive to really ponder with an open, searching and receptive heart. The element "with real intent" is critical, if your intent is to know the truth, without preconceived objectives or other goals AND you are willing to following the witness of the Spirit even to the changing of your life then with that "real intent" you will receive a knowledge of all things. If like the Russians who after they launched the first man into space said: we have been to the heavens and there is no God, then you will most likely have the same experience with the BofM for if you will not ponder sincerely in your heart nor if you will have real intent, it is not always enough to ask, you have to be willing when you get the answer. May the Lord bless you in your reading and deliberation is my prayer and I am sure the prayers of all your friends here. I hope this post does not offend anyone reading, it is not my desire to offend in any way your brother Bob ....... I just worked out that Plebeian is one of the "common people of ancient Rome", "lower class", or a "coarse or vulgar person" so you have to cut me some slack ok:)

thanks allmosthumble, that is the risk when you think you remember the line! Isn't there another line about "dark satanic mills"? Sure there are mountains in England, little ones! Sure it was not "England" back then but what's a little word play here and there! It makes you think, if Jesus did get around like this he was one very busy bloke...... no wonder he didn't have the time to get married!!!!!!!! :) ok, ok, lets not go there again :) Bob

This is awesome! Dan Brown eat your heart out! The Englishman in me is bursting at the seams as in my mind I remember the classic lines: "And did those feet in ancient times walk upon Englands pleasant plastures green". But then again let us not close our minds, I think I need to look deeper into this, thanks for posting this one Bob