Saintmichaeldefendthem1

This particular belief is only a shade different than the Catholic Church's belief. Protestants stop praying for people after they die, giving up all hope that the person can be saved. Those who know better know that God's saving grace is at work even in the abyss of death, and our prayers for the souls of the deceased are truly efficacious.

It seems Mexican president Felipe Calderon has gotten the decisive upperhand in his "negotiations" with Obama gaining a serious concession that would allow Mexican trucks to travel freely in the United States while avoiding many of the DOT laws and regulations that American carriers have to abide by. How did the Mexicans do it? By imposing tarrifs on U.S. imports and agreeing to lift them only after the first Mexican truck driver successfully completes a trip into U.S. territory. The Mexican trucks would not have to be compliant with the new EPA 2010 environmental standards, nor would the drivers be subject to hours of service regulations. These drivers would be able to drive directly to U.S. based customers bypassing the need for American drivers and this will have an impact on jobs. I myself have taken several loads to Laredo, TX, a transfer city where Mexican trucks pick up dropped trailers and bring them to destination in Mexico. Others bring trailers from Mexico to be transferred to American carriers and so on. Having been a frequent visitor to Laredo, I can say that thousands of American carriers daily are bringing loads there. Mexicans now being able to circumvent this process will cost many jobs. And "pro union" Obama did this? On another front, Obama was asked if a policy requiring DEA agents in Mexico to be unarmed could be revisited in light of a recent killing of an unarmed DEA agent. He responded that we have to abide by Mexican law and that DEA agents only serve an advisory function in Mexico, a fact that didn't protect the agent that was murdered by cartel members. Aside from the juxtaposition of Americans having to abide by Mexican laws while Mexican truckers are exempted from ours, this serves as yet another example of how weak our president is. Considering the steady stream of foreign aid that we give to Mexico, we couldn't even gain this one little concession to protect our agents over there? Really??

I heard Dr. Laura talking about this issue yesterday, and she had the highest praise for BYU and contrasted it to Northwest University that has made the news with their "human sexuality" course in which they are going to feature a woman pleasuring herself with battery operated devices among other things. A university holding high standards is becoming a rarity indeed and considering this student is a star player, BYU's honor code is clearly the highest priority. Unfortunately what is happening in American universities, churches, and other religious institutions is that one's personal life is becoming compartmentalized and considered private and irrelevent. The Apostle Paul was very clear that sexual sin affects the whole body when he called out a man for having sex with his stepmother. We are all in this together and Christianity is not a chain of islands. What we do affects everyone else and that should give us pause for consideration before we embark on sexual misconduct.

If it gets locked, it's because people keep trying to change the topic to evolution. Faithless has been diligent in referring such attempts to the evolution thread. I kept my comments on this very general for a reason. Stop trying to turn this into an evolution thread, people!

CAIR should be shut down. The FBI has already determined definitively that they funnel money to terror groups overseas.

I find it ironic that Christians in Muslim countries are highly restricted in their ability to practice their faith and the "crime" of evangelism is met with harsh penalties. I see this law as targeting not those Muslims who come to America to be free, but those who come here to establish religious enslavement. Constitutionally protected religious expression does not grant people the right to insulated cloisters independent of U.S. laws and courts. As someone mentioned earlier, this doesn't hurt peaceful Muslims wanting only to practice their faith.

I don't think the meaning could be more clear, especially when these dark skinned perpetrators are contrasted to the "fair skinned children of God". I'm not the one failing to take the text at its most logical meaning. Interpretation. Is that like saying that jihadist Muslims have a false interpretation of the Qu'ran? In both cases, when conflicting interpretations come into play, there is always one interpretation that follows the natural, lay-of-the-land meaning of the text and another that stretches the meaning to serve an agenda. It's a painful truth that those Muslims that interpret the Qu'ran as standing orders to visit violence upon those who don't submit to Islam are the ones reading it correctly with no cohersion. I forget, am I the one who is a hateful bigot here? An error indeed. It's just as incorrect as saying that color doesn't matter. Considering I've been exploring contradicting opinions between different black Mormons, I hardly consider this indictment to be of any merit. You can spin it any way you want, but the truth can sometimes cut like elephant grass. Muslims ARE too backward for democracy and self rule not because all Muslims are the same, but rather because those voices calling for democracy do not hold sway against against louder voices calling for religious despotism. I'm a truth seeker which is why I seem to rub you wrong. I seek out the truth no matter how unflattering or politically incorrect. The fact that I can see the ugliness in the past practices of the LDS and still find myself admiring this faith should tell you all you need to know about me. Islam is a religion I detest to the depths of my being because it lacks the Mormons' ability to overcome past mistakes and choose the right path. Mormons and Muslims are nothing alike. I'm not sure I understand the question here. Perhaps it's an opportunity to see how the LDS is viewed from the outside. I'm not a basher nor am I inclined to believe anything calumnating of the LDS faith. I will say this as an outsider because now it's time that harsh words be directed at you. You represent your faith poorly, meeting any non Mormon's opinions and inquiries with xenophobic hostility and ripostes that drip with contempt. You have no grasp of the fine art of apologetics which is about building bridges not walls and you routinely ignore opportunities to engender better understanding of the LDS faith interpreting every opportunity given you as a threat. Then don't. If you feel it's a waste of time, then why are you responding? I've done nothing to conceal my objective with this thread and I've gotten a lot of helpful feedback from many members here and have checked out the resources offered to me in order to better understand this issue. To them I owe much gratitude. But I can have no meaningful discussion with someone who circles the wagons to fend off any viewpoint that doesn't toe the party line. So you're right. We are wasting our time with each other.

True. This is a large site and I'm just becoming acquainted with it. That's why I was careful not to suggest that the issue wasn't addressed at all. But let's take a closer look here at this testamony: This is the second time I heard a black man say that the ban was not inspired. This isn't like polygamy, a practice that was initiated by revelation and ended the same way. Renee and Marcus Martins are both saying that God never came up with the idea of the ban. And here addressed is the mistake that some here are trying to make, to whitewash LDS history of the taint of racism. As I said earlier, I have fellow Catholics who try to do the same with Catholic history. In both cases, an easy lie is being preferred over the hard truth. You're right that Elijah Abel, a black man, was appointed to the priesthood by Joseph Smith and then Walker Lewis, but then the restrictions took place indicating that a trend started but it wasn't started by JS.I was also interested in Marvin Perkins' testamony and found this unique view on the curse of Cain and its reversal: Perkins testamony is quick to point out that the curse is applicable only to those who don't repent, but in this statement indicates the favorable outcome by which the curse is reversed entirely by the lightening of the skin through directive eugenics. Clearly there is a difference between Renee saying that the darkness is not a curse but a calling and Perkins saying that it is a curse that is reversed through repentence and the reversal culminates through the undoing of its most obvious manifestation, the darkness of skin.

Thank you so much. This is what I'm after, the truth. I find anti Mormon bigotry as distasteful as anyone here and that is certainly not my agenda. But to whitewash history serves no good purpose either. Christianity has had a long struggle on these issues. It was the Catholic Church that banned slavery in the entire continent of Europe during the middle ages, but then slavery returned between the 15th and 19th centuries, not only in America, but in many other nations as well, and it was a struggle yet again to purge this practice. Even during the darkest times of prevalent injustice, as you are pointing out, God has been at work through His people and that is very encouraging to know.

Let's be clear, FT, that was a syllogism (BOM has these texts, God doesn't inspire racism, therefore BOM is not inspired) that you introduced, not me. My interest in the opinions of Mormons here are precisely because you believe those books to be inspired. My private beliefs don't apply because the discussion assumes that the BOM and POGP are inspired and I won't argue otherwise. I'm more interested in how black or NA members view these passages. I watched this with great interest as well as part 2. It's interesting that Marcus Martins is frank about the racism he experienced in the LDS church, the very racism that some here are pretending didn't happen. He also believes that the ban on black priesthood was not inspired. Some may take hot issue with that, but it goes to show that blacks can have a very different persective on things than whites. Thank you for sharing this video. It does offer the perspective I'm looking for.

No I don't believe the BOM or POGP were inspired, but Mormons do and that's the point. It's a mistake to compare race with gender roles. Women even today cannot be a priest in my church nor will they ever. Nor should they be a priest, bishop, etc in any church and that has to do with the role God assigned to men and the different role He assigned to women. In regard to race, there should be no difference as a black man should be as qualified as a white man to hold the priesthood.

I read every single testamonial on blacklds.org but nobody touched on this specific issue. It really is a sensitive topic, isn't it?

Good point. Perhaps one of the biggest differences is how racism was codified in the LDS holy books the BOM and POGP. I won't bore you by posting those citations again. But while other Christian denominations practiced segregation, none of them have canonized scriptures of darkness of skin being a sign of God's hot disfavor. The reintigration of a Baptist church I can understand because practices can and do change. But what about a church that harbored racism as a matter supported by scripture? Some are already coming after me with pitchforks, but I think you understand that I have the kindest regard and respect toward the LDS faith. I just have some honest questions about this issue. I won't keep touting the fact that I'm a Native American because I've never used that fact for leverage. I've never taken anything I haven't earned nor taken advantage of government programs that I would surely be eligible for. But that being my heritage, perhaps you can understand why this question intrigues me.

It's easy to miss, but the statement that people shouldn't identify themselves as Black Mormon, Native American Mormon, Japanese Mormon, etc because race doesn't matter (a flatly false assertion) is a denial of heritage that can be offensive. I'm sure Pam meant no harm by it, but perhaps we should visit why non whites believe racial heritage does matter very much.

Thanks for the information. That's an amazing fact.

This is the vein of thought I'm trying to isolate and explore. Many have responded with examples of racial parity indicating that I didn't make my question clear enough. With the quoted sections of 2 Nephi in the BOM and also the Pearl of Great Price, how does any black man or Native American overcome the offensive hue=curse paradigm spelled out in the Book of Mormon to become a Mormon themselves? If you are Native American, then perhaps you can shed some light on this. There are so many respondants who are getting bent out of shape about the race issue, that I'm having difficulty getting an answer to an honest question. So let's look at this again: My question is simple. Of those of non white descent who become Mormon, how do they view this? Moreover, how do they overcome it?

A credit to Mormons missionary efforts the world over, to be sure. However, I think that the "race doesn't matter so why bring it up?" is a very white attitude and doesn't work toward reconciliation because it isn't true any more than the "every issue is a race issue" view held by some non white people. As a Mormon, you come from a heritage of perseverence through persecutions and as such shouldn't deny that same pride to blacks and Native Americans like myself who also have a heritage of perseverence through injustices. Put another way, if Mormon is an identity to be proud of, then so is black, hispanic, Chinese, and Native American and for the same reason.

Let's examine the scriptures in question: Many of the answers here have to do with the accord of the LDS church toward blacks and Native Americans replete with numerous attempts to scrubb LDS history of any imbrument of racism. I know a little bit about history and how it often confounds popular beliefs. Even during the slavery years, examples of great kindness could be found in slave states while examples of great cruelty and racism could be found in Northern non slave states. If I were to daisy chain the examples of southern kindness, I could paint a picture of slavery as not being such a bad thing while ommitting facts that work against such a notion. Going back to the LDS, while I'm sure that many examples of interracial justice can be cited, it serves no good purpose to present a completely white washed revision of LDS history bereft of ugliness. For example: This was not the exception, it was the rule. And I make no apology for saying that the LDS "oozed with racism" because that is a fact. Now I'm coming at this as a Catholic from the Roman Catholic Church, an institution with 2000 years of history to answer for. And much of it was certainly not flattering. I see many Catholics make an attempt at revisionist history to remove any blemish from our record. Every atrocity and injustice has an explanation that mitigates or even exhonorates the Church's conduct. Maturity is being able to face the rueful events that plagued the history of your faith and still say, "I'm proud to be Mormon, not because we were perfect, but because of what we overcame." By the same note, I'm proud to be Catholic, even with the eggregious mistakes of our past.

It's clear that the early Mormon settlers were on the receiving end of persecutions, not the giving end. I can see how good relations would have been established between equally afflicted parties. Setting Native Americans aside for a moment, I think the particular attitude toward blacks was influenced by the prevailing segregationist attitudes of those days and the Mormons were far from the only ones who saw it as their "christian duty" to oppose integration. The reverberations in many Protestant churches from past racial segregation can be seen even today with congregations that are almost entirely black or white. I don't think the LDS church would be immune from the lag in racial homogenization experienced in so many other churches.

Then what an opportunity to set the record straight!

Perhaps Native American Mormons feel a special connection with the BOM stories because of the role of their ancestors in it and what may be a cause for offense is turned into a cause for endearment. Please understand, I'm approaching this question with my mind wide open.

Don't mean to offend, my friend, but I believe I lay out a compelling argument for there to be a cause for umbrage. Being hispanic, you decend from Native Americans just like I do. I'm happy that the LDS changed, but there's no denying how recently racism was thick, especially in Utah. Taking the American landscape as an example, its clear that racial injustice takes several generations to heal from. Though today, I'm not bitter about the displacement of my people from their land, I might feel differently if it happened to my parents and grandparents and I was only a few decades removed from the offense. Do you see my point? Oh, and yes, in the hollywood alter-reality, those who carry themselves with unimpeachable religious piety become the prime target for a staged moral downfall. Such is the product of screen writers with minds adumbrated by darkness.

I'm sure prison chaplain is still getting used to these fancy-dancy new handcuff thingies. When he first became a prison chaplain, they were still using clap irons.

I was watching the TV show "House" and saw a black doctor on Dr. House's team who was a Mormon. House, being the unrelenting scoffer of all things religious, pilloried the young Mormon on a bet with another doctor that he could get him to lose his temper. After numerous jabs about Joseph Smith, polygamy, and religion in general, the black Mormon decked Dr. House. It was strangely humorous to me, not that a Mormon was driven to violence (I had once provoked a Mormon boy to hit me in Jr. High), but rather that he was a black Mormon. We are only about a generation from when the LDS church oozed with unabashed racism based on the belief about the darkness of skin being associated with God's curse upon the evil Lamanites. This curse was said to be upon what is today native Americans, but the hue=curse belief easily translated to colored people as well. I'm Native American, yet I take this indictment upon my race with grace and humor. I'm also well aware that those days are behind us and no detectable trace of racism can be found in the LDS church today. The question I have to ask is, being only a few decades removed from the church's racist past, how many non whites are happy to call themselves Mormons. About what percentage of your congregation would you estimate is of a non caucasian heritage? Are there any Native Americans like myself? I don't mean to offend white people. I'm just curious as to the measure of change. Thank you.

From: Twitterpated | Define Twitterpated at Dictionary.com Main Entry: twitterpated Part of Speech: adj Definition: confused by affection or infatuation Etymology: twitter + -pated 'pertaining to the head' Thanks a million for adding to my lexicon! (the million dollars you see is not real, don't bruise your hand trying to grab it from the screen)