yjacket

I do respect your opinions anatess. I think we are probably closer than we are farther apart. I do recognize I take a hard-line stance on many things. Sometimes for good, sometimes for bad. I will tell you were my hard-line stance comes from (and I don't want to re-engage in a discussion, I'm just asking questions as things to think about). What is our spirit? Where does it reside? What is the nature of our spirit? What does psychology tell us about the spirit? Does our spirit consist of our thoughts? does it consist of our feelings? I have to imagine that it does as I don't see a way for a pre-mortal existence to work without thoughts and feelings. If it does, then what part of our physical body consists of spirit feelings/thoughts and bodily feelings/thoughts? I can't imagine we felt physical hunger-so sure physical hunger would be a bodily feeling? What about sadness? What about anger, hope, elation, etc.? I have to imagine we could feel all those things in spirit. If we could, does our physical body augment those feelings/thoughts, does it influence them? If we can feel the Spirit of God (i.e. goodness) can we not also feel the spirit of evil (mind you-you don't have to be a bad person or do bad things to feel an evil spirit-it can draw it in-but it's not necessary). Does psychology address any of the issues with the spirit? No, in the psychology viewpoint we are little more than a moist robot. We have inputs, we have outputs, we have internal components, we have internal circuit boards. Who we are, our personality, our feelings, our thoughts, everything about who we are comes from that circuit board inside of us, i.e. the brain. That to change our feelings our thoughts, etc. all we need to do is regulate the brain-modify it somehow. I believe the spirit and the body are intertwined, especially at the emotional/mental level. There are rare cases where it is obvious there is massive problem with the physicality of the brain. But 18% of the US population, no I don't believe that. Especially when you start to look over different culture, and time periods. That ~20% of the population has something drastically wrong with their brain. No, I don't believe that at all. Do I believe at least 20% of the population has something wrong with their spirit . . . yes absolutely. The Spirit and the body are connected, and to treat only what we think are physical symptoms to a problem that significantly resides in the spiritual (i.e. how we think and feel) is a travesty and disregards the Power of God. There is so much that we don't understand about the brain. Quite frankly, I personally think there are things we aren't meant to understand about it in this lifetime. Did you know about the Pineal gland? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pineal_gland#Drug_metabolism It was known anciently as the "third eye" or the "seat of the soul", the "God's eye". Guess what it does: "The pineal gland produces melatonin, a serotonin derived hormone which modulates sleep patterns in both circadian and seasonal cycles." It's not isolated from the blood-brain barrier . . i.e. things injected into the blood stream will go to the pineal gland. "Rick Strassman, an author and Clinical Associate Professor of Psychiatry at the University of New Mexico School of Medicine, has theorized that the human pineal gland is capable of producing the hallucinogen N,N-dimethyltryptamine (DMT) under certain circumstances." Is it possible that are spirit resides there? That some people somehow are able to active the pineal gland, receive visions, etc. . . .who knows? By what process did JS actually see a Vision? Do spiritual things affect the pineal gland and it's secretions? Maybe, who knows? I'm 100% okay with and agree with nueroscientist investigating the brain understanding it more, etc. What I'm not okay with is the psychology field, presenting as fact things they don't know. They present as fact that people have a chemical imbalance . . .when they don't know if it is actually a chemical imbalance or not. Chemical imbalance is just as helpful as saying "yes, there is something wrong b/c you have deep lasting depression" The psychology field tries to set itself up as this almighty field that has the answer, to just trust them, they know what they are doing-when they don't. Their prescription of drugs is not more or less valid than, using prayer, using meta-science, acupuncture or any other field of medicine that delves into this realm. They don't know, the one's who are honest admit they don't know, they admit it's only theory and reliable double-blind studies on the efficacy of the drugs demonstrate that fact. And I have personally witnessed it. I've personally witnessed someone with DID (which is one of the hardest mental illnesses to crack) receive more healing, more therapy, integration of personalities, more wholeness, etc. from laymen just simply applying the Gospel of Jesus Christ than they received in decades of taking medical pills. So much so that the psychologist (who is a member) was stunned and awestruck and the DID individual was able to stop taking pills. The Power of the Atonement of Jesus Christ is real and more powerful than we can possibly imagine.

My biggest beef with homosexuality and psychology (b/c the two are linked as in our modern view of homosexuality is directly tied to modern psychology) is that it completely disregards change and the ability to change oneself. “Sow a thought, reap an action; sow an action, reap a habit; sow a habit, reap a character; sow a character, reap a destiny.” That saying is an enigma to psychology and the modern day philosophy of homosexuality. What the basic premise/theory says is: a) our emotions are based on chemical processes in the brain. b) b/c these emotions (whether they be attraction to the same sex, depression, feelings that the person is really a boy trapped in a girls body etc.) are based on chemical processes that are linked to biological factors, genetics, etc. it is unjust, not fair, not right and morally wrong to declare that someone who acts out on those emotions is wrong. c) furthermore, b/c (so goes the theory) these emotions/feelings are generated by natural processes this means that any declaration that those feelings are wrong means that those who say they are wrong are hateful, spiteful, vengeful, bigoted, etc. b/c to judge a feeling wrong for something that cannot be controlled (these are natural processes remember) means that those who do so they are wrong are evil. This is why modern day psychology is downright evil. It completely disregards what the Gospel teaches about change; that through Christ we can become a new man. Oh members of the Church have bought into this lie that well yeah we can change . . .but for somethings we really can't. Pick whatever pet modern day psychological illness that culture now deems a innate, inborn or due to some neurological chemical problem (even thought they can't prove it-i.e. that there is a homosexual gene or that it is inborn) and it suddenly changes. Then it becomes, well yeah of course through Christ we can change . . .but not in this. Not in homosexuality, not in transgenderism, not in xyz. The are born that way . .. how do we know that . . .well b/c psychology tells us that they are. How do we know they can't change? Well b/c psychology tells us so. We have put our faith and trust more in the arm of flesh rather than in God. How does the person who has an addiction stop the addiction. Quite simple, they just simply stop. It requires the will to act. Sure we have helps for people that help them develop the will to stop; but it all comes down to the will to not do it. This idea that SSA is something that is just there and always will be there is total BS. How do I know? Well, it's quite simple. I'm a married man. When I was single, it was very easy to look at girls and to be attracted to them. Over time as I've learned to control my thoughts, my actions, as I've matured, I've learned that I don't have to be attracted to good looking women. I can look at a good looking woman and recognize that she is attractive without being attracted to her. Just like I can recognize when there is a guy who is a good looking guy, without being attracted (even though that has never been a problem for me) to him and not think I'm homosexual or there is something wrong with me. Christ even said that we can control our thoughts when it comes to attraction. He tells us that to look upon a women to lust is like unto adultery . . .i.e. He expects us to be able to control our thoughts to where we are not lusting after another women. If He expects us to do that . . .why is it so hard to think that we can control what we are attracted to? Once you start down the road that we can't control our emotions/feelings pandora's box is wide open. Pedophiles . . .they just can't help how they feel towards little children and anyone who judges them for having these feelings/inclinations is a bigot . . .where does it end? Where does it end? And it all starts with: “Sow a thought, reap an action; sow an action, reap a habit; sow a habit, reap a character; sow a character, reap a destiny.”

AKA. Do whatever you feel like as long as you don't tell anyone else what to do; that ain't what the scriptures teach.

?? You claim I have an extremist position, yet everything you say points exactly in my direction. "when the truth is that we don't really know what is happening". . ."only that something is" (actually only that you think something is physically happening-but you just admit, we can't explain it and we don't know). How much more plain can it get. Chemical imbalance is a made-up mental construct!!! They think it is caused by some problems in the brain. . .i.e. it is a theory, a construct, not grounded in science or fact. How is the world does that position hold more validity than the idea the evil spirits posses people? What do you think Christ was doing when he was casting out devils? There might have been a million people in his immediate area, yet no one was in today's parlance "mentally ill"? No they just had spirits and devils afflict them. That is my point, psychology (this branch anyways) is more of a religion based upon faith than actual science. What else is it? I prayed for God to help me find a job and I did. Something happened, I don't know exactly what happened, only that it did. Faith in psychology is just as much a false faith as it is faith in God. https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/charting-the-depths/201007/the-serotonin-theory-depression-is-collapsing From the horse's mouth. "Serotonin Theory of depression collapsing." http://www.neuropsychotherapist.com/is-the-low-serotonin-theory-of-depression-wrong/ "It is possible that serotonin is not the key to depression, and may be quite a distal factor in the causal pathway for depression. Serotonin is likely an important part of regulating energetically expensive states like depression (i.e. depressed states being high serotonin phenomena), but the solution for depression is probably not a simple matter of artificially tipping the balance of serotonin across the entire system." I can't find it but there was an article by a major psycologist (who pioneered seratonin research) who admits that he was wrong, that actually taking these drugs causes worse symptoms overall . . i.e. people get addicted to them and can't get off them b/c they destroy the brain's natural functional ability. In other words, the very act of taking one of these drugs permanently changes the brains functions and makes it harder and harder to function without the drug itself. Man alive, people just want to stick their head in the sand. They don't know. Repeat it, repeat it, repeat it. Psychologists don't know why and they don't know how to fix it. They flipping admit it. But people refuse to believe it. They stick their heads in the sand and make-believe in some fantasy land that going to a someone who studied for 6 years and is called a "doctor" in a white jacket has all the answers to something so complicated as the Spirit, Body and Mind. Which is why, yes you will find just as good of answers in the Gospel of Jesus Christ as you will in some dude in a white jacket that claims you have some made-up mental construct called a "chemical imbalance". He might as well say you are influenced by an evil spirit. But I completely understand that it makes people feel better to go to a doctor who tells them they have xyz and to take abc and it will make them feel better. From a pure psychological perspective, it makes people feel good when they have someone in a position of authority (i.e. a doctor) tell them what they have and proscribe something to "fix" it-especially when they have no idea what is going on within themselves. So if it works for you, great, I have no problem with it.

If we had enough faith in our theology, divorce wouldn't exist in the LDS culture. You know what they say, work like everything depends on you, pray like everything depends on God . . .

lol . . .wow talk about twisting the scriptures to mean whatever you want it to mean. What a fascinating world we live in today. Up is down, down is up, black is white, white is black, good is evil and evil is good. You see b/c you can't say something is evil b/c that means you are judging and how do you know that you are judging right so it's best not to judge at all b/c judging incorrectly is worse than anything else!! Utterly and completely fascinating. It truly is amazing to see what has occurred in my lifetime with regards to right and wrong. 20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! 1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. 2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, 4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; 5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. 6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, 7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. ------------- For the bolded . .. how is it that everyone preaches a form of supposed godliness in the form of tolerance and love-but they deny the Power of God in their lives? For the last bolded, we have more ability to learn and grow than any other point in history; there is the water of knowledge everywhere to drink, but people have lost their moral compass of truth. If this doesn't describe our day, I don't know what does. What's fascinating is that people don't see it . . .they are so blinded that they either don't see, don't want to see it, or willfully disregard it. Amazing . . .and it's gonna get a lot worse of that I'm sure. ---- In a serious tone, learning the difference between self-righteousness and righteousness is critical. One can proclaim things are not of God and still recognize that it is only in and through the grace, and mercy of Christ that we can ever hope to obtain salvation. Self-righteousness is "I have no faults, thank you God b/c I'm so much better than everyone else". Righteousness is "This is wrong, that is wrong; I am not perfect I sin in my own ways, and I'm working on it-thank you God for your Son, help me to be better, help me to be more like Thee, help others around me to be more like Thee."

Bully for you on not wanting to live the life your mother made. If you have succeeded in doing so, you are statistically outside the norm; congratulations. I don't think getting married later in life is a societal good thing. If a women gets married at 28, that really only leaves her 7 good years to have children (high risk pregnancies after 35, higher risk of severe birth defects, etc.). A women getting married at 28, would be fortunate to have 2 children (probably wait 1-2 years before kids, ~2 years apart, ~1.5 years of pregnancy) oh look you're at 35. Hmm, considering the current re-population rate is below what it takes to actually sustain the population; i.e. we are literally killing ourselves off the planet; I don't think delaying marriage is a good thing.

Lol. . . become a parent. Early years are formative in certain aspects, teenage years formative is other aspects. No, I don't have evidence-I have common sense, wisdom, and experience. Something this world is sorely lacking.

What progress? Please point me to the progress. Great we give people drugs that make them happy (but that isn't even really verified in double-blind studies). We still have no idea what the underlying reasons are for it. That's progress? Believing in a paradigm that isn't proven (and may never be proven, i.e. chemical imbalances) is progress? How is a "professional" going to fix a problem that they don't even know what the problem is? It's not a matter of "there is no gas in the tank and you have a leaky tank". It's a "you're car won't start, and we don't know why your car won't start", but we think it's something related to a chemical imbalance in your car (i.e. not having enough gas). "Do you have enough gas in your tank? Oh you filled it up 5 min. ago? Hmm, do you have a leaky tank? Here take this additive and see if that will make the car start? Oh it didn't, well did you check your spark plugs? Here take these spark plugs and replace them? Oh that didn't work? Maybe you have it in park? Ah see you mashed the gas when you turned the ignition . . .that was your problem? Oh well now your car starts, but now when you try to steer it, it wants to veer into brick walls . .. well that's just a side-effect of getting your car started. Next!" Again, they don't have a clue. Can what they do help? Sure, can therapy, CBT, etc. help . ..absolutely. Do they know how to fix the broken car . . .not a chance-they are just trying something until it hits. If that is progress, like I've said before mental health industry is like the 1700s and blood-letting.

Oh brother . . .here we go again with the claims that everyone is a "gasp" bigot and being a gasp "bigot" is one of the worst sins ever!!!!! Dictionary time: a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion. a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; Oh my goodness look at how "evil" someone is who is a bigot. They are intolerant of others beliefs or opinions!!! Except no one defines what intolerance means and in today's parlance intolerant simply means you disagree with, do not accept and will counter the other person's beliefs. Please point me to where Christ said we needed to be tolerant of others beliefs, creeds, or opinions. We should be kind, we should give aid like the good Samaritan, etc. but tolerant?? I don't think so. The evil ideology in today's worldview is that if you do not tolerate my views on homosexuality, my views on gender, my views on xyz, why then you are a bigot (said in the most nasty way ever). Being a Muslim is incorrect, fine if you want to believe that way, but it is wrong. Just like homosexuality, transgender, etc. is wrong. No I'm not tolerant of muslim beliefs, I don't want it taught to my children, in schools they attend, etc. No, I'm not ashamed of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, homosexual acts are evil acts, transgenderism is an evil ideology, homosexual marriage is evil and not of God. If that makes me a bigot, so be it-I care not for what label the world puts on me. The Gospel of Jesus Christ isn't about "just loving people for who they are" it is about becoming someone different, becoming like God and in the process of becoming like God there isn't any room for belief that sin or incorrect ideology is okay.

Totally agree, there are things that do show up and there are extreme cases like multiple personality disorders, schizophrenia, etc. Where brain scans will show there is something totally different going on. The question then becomes did the brain inherently form that way, i.e. like a crooked nose? or was it developed that way? For example, how we think and what we do will actively change the brain. We activate different portions of the brain depending on how we act, think, behave. So did the brain just naturally develop that way, or did it become that way? If it became that way, how and why did it become that way; is there a way to reverse the process to literally change the brains patterns to develop into something different. If it didn't become that way and was pre-disposed like a crooked nose, is there a way to make it to where it doesn't become pre-disposed that way. There is so, so much that we don't know, as a scientist, as a researcher, it is a travesty that we just paper over the lack of knowledge with weasel words like "chemical imbalance"

What in the world are you talking about? What part of "if taking a pill helps you, do it" do you not understand? What part of "Saying the solutions are found in the gospel is different than saying you are a "bad person" b/c you deal with depression and "only if you were more righteous" it would all go away" Eowyn, what is your deal? You are proscribing viewpoints and words to me that I didn't say or intend. Why are you only hearing and taking my words to mean what you want them to mean, instead of trying to understand what I'm saying. Again, my point has been throughout this entire thread; psychology's view that depression is caused by a "chemical imbalance" is completely unfounded has no basis in reality and is a mental construct (i.e. a made-up fantasy that may at some point in the future be accurate or it may not be) to describe what they think is going on but as for now is totally false. Again, prove me wrong (how many times to I have to say it). If God leads you to take a pill and it helps you-great, I have no qualms at all, God lead you to something that works for you. . awesome! My point is that the underlying basis of psychology is false. God can absolutely use incorrect things to help people out-why wouldn't He. If it works for you great-just like if someone finds healing in acupuncture, electro-therapy, or whatever else, awesome. People will rail against acupuncture, b/c it doesn't pass the double-blind study of scientific proof and no one cares; yet saying the same thing about mental health professional drugs and it's philosophy that lie in as similar vein and oh crap-you've just touched the third rail of electricity and you'd think you killed someone's grandmother. "Why do you want to hurt people" that's like asking "When did you stop beating your wife?" Really, you are going to go with that question and then claim I'm being arrogant, self-righteous, ignorant, etc. You completely dismissed my account of my healing. You ignored it, dismissed it and then threw it back in my face. Just look in the mirror. There is a scripture that comes to mind about this . . .

#1), there is nothing in his talk that I disagree with. There is nothing in his talk that gives validity to the theory of chemical imbalances. He says "We sense the complexity of such matters when we hear professionals speak of neuroses and psychoses, of genetic predispositions and chromosome defects, of bipolarity, paranoia, and schizophrenia. ". No where in the talk does he mention drugs or medication. In fact, in the above sentence, he admits that these things are very complex. I agree, they are complex. And for most people who have not studied the issues, they will accept whatever the experts say . . .because that's why they are experts, right? #2) You are subscribing to me intent to hurt and damage where there is not intent to hurt or damage. I understand the truth can be very hard to hear; it's like when a kid first learns there is no Santa Claus, they can be devastated. Either I'm right or I'm wrong. If I'm wrong, then I gladly welcome anyone to demonstrate so by the use of statistics, facts, studies, measurable data, etc. Show me what a chemical imbalance is. Show me what test I can take to measure my own chemical imbalance (besides my own self-assessment-I need objective, repeatable, verifiable, 3rd party testing-not just based on how I feel that day)? If I'm wrong, great. No problem for me. But what if I'm right? What if the belief in a chemical imbalance (and the state of it's current knowledge) is no better than just faith. Why is it that people will put more faith in the modern constructs of psychology, rather than faith in God. Maybe society as a whole has been lead down a very evil path? I'm supposed to put my trust in psychology, and the grand DSM? You mean the DSM that at one point classified homosexuality as a mental disorder, that classified transgender as a mental disorder, but then decided it wasn't. You mean the DSM where the only reason they took out homosexuality as a mental disorder was simply b/c of political winds and culture changed and they voted to take it out . . .no science, no data, just a vote. The profession that would classify Joseph Smith as a psychotic. Let's see a man who sees visions, hears voices, believes God talks to him? He is either delusional, psychotic, manic-depressent, or a pyscopath. I'm supposed to put my trust in that profession, that they know how to make me whole? Nope, I don't think so, not for one second.If someone wants to take pills and it works for them-great. Some people use talk therapy, some people use a dog, or a hobby, or whatever. "If things continue to be debilitating, seek the advice of reputable people with certified training, professional skills, and good values. Be honest with them about your history and your struggles. Prayerfully and responsibly consider the counsel they give and the solutions they prescribe." Elder Holland said the above. I'm good with the above; before one should start taking some random drug, one should do the research, find the double-blind studies that show actual results. Eowyn, you may not know me personally. But this I can guarantee. I'm not going to tell you how, where or why. I have been through Hell in my life. I have seen what the powers of Hell and Damnation are; I know what an afflicted mind, body and spirit is, I know what it's like to become acquainted with the vastness and the depths of the pits of despair. I also know of the Power of God. That He is the Master and Ruler over all. He can heal the broken spirit. His Power, Majesty and glory are greater than any mental anguish. "Though we may feel we are “like a broken vessel,” as the Psalmist says,10 we must remember, that vessel is in the hands of the divine potter." I agree fully with Elder Holland. No where in his talk did he mention drugs, or chemical imbalances. All I'm saying is that as a society we have set up psychologist and psychology as a god, that it has all the answers, that it knows how to fix our broken spirits. And it's false, the emperor has no clothes . . .maybe one day it will get there, but that day is not today. And until that day comes (if it does), my trust, my faith, my heart, my soul, my belief in healing resides in the One who provides True healing. Jesus Christ. He has healed me, He has healed those I love. He can heal others.

It's like talking to brick walls. Give me 1; all I ask for is 1 documented, indisputable evidence of a chemical imbalance. I just want one, that's it. I don't want theories, I don't want "experts believe", I just want one article that tells me exactly what a "chemical imbalance" is, how to measure it, how to quantify it, how to test for it, etc. The way psychology works today is the following. You go to the doctor complaining your stomach hurts. The doctor talks to you a lot, asks you how it hurts, when it hurts, the kind of hurt it has, etc. You answer a 5 page surveys about the type of pain you have, questions as detailed as "do you feel the pain when you eat?" "is it a dull pain?" "do you feel the pain when you go to the bathroom?" The doctor then makes this magically claim with an air of superiority . . . "well you see, you have something we call 'cancer'". From everything you have described to us, we believe it is a specific type of cancer called stomach cancer. And you see this cancer is caused because their are neuro-receptors inside your stomach that don't like food. Your body makes too much of this stomach-neuro-receptors. Now to prevent this from happening, I'm going to give you a prescription for a drug called stomo-percolatcet. This will take away the pain. You go to the pharmacy, buy this drug and take it . . .it works for 2 weeks, but gives you nasty side effects (you're bloated, you can't go to the bathroom right, etc.). Doc, says . .. hmm well that's interesting, I guess your body's stomo-neuro-receptors just don't work properly for this drug, I'll give you a proscription for stomo-phenotenal, that will do the trick! Rise, lather, repeat until you find a drug that "does the trick". Mind you nowhere in this process has the doctor, physically inspected you, he hasn't touched your stomach, felt it, he hasn't taken any blood tests to confirm that your body has too much of stomo-neuro-receptors. The only tests he has run are entirely subjective tests, based upon your perceived reality of whether it hurts or not. In other words, there is absolutely no objective way for a third party to actually measure or test this stomo-neuro-receptor imbalance. It is entirely detected based upon how you feel. In the physical realm, we would all recognize this as just complete crap and voodoo; i.e. the doctor has no clue as to what he is doing and is just doing something to make you feel better . . .whether or not it actually works is another question. Look, if taking xyz drug makes you feel better . . .great, go for it. If a placebo makes you feel better, do it; if prayer helps you great, do it. Simply don't kid yourself into believing that the pyscologist has any clue as to what is really going on. Again, just one article; please just one article telling me how to actually measure a "chemical imbalance". At one point in the future, we may actually discover a true chemical imbalance, until then all it is is simply a mental construct (i.e. a made-up imaginary thing) to explain the unexplained.

"We're talking about emotions -- quite a non-physical phenomenon only impacted by some physical characteristics."-that's what you said. I absolutely agree, people are different and respond to different stimuli. Call it our soul, call it our spirit, whatever you want, but yes people are different. Are we ever really going to know what makes people tick? Probably not until the hereafter. I think we are on similar but parallel wavelengths. I love Hollands talk; what I disagree with is the notion that psychologists know exactly what is going on and why someone is depressed, bi-polar, etc. i.e. they dress up their theories in terms such as "chemical imbalances", sell it to the masses as if they know what they are talking about, when they don't. They don't know what a "chemical imbalance" is anymore than you or I. That is what I dislike, the fraud that is involved in it; if the profession as a whole was honest about it then I wouldn't have a big bone to pick-but they aren't they use fancy titles, three letter names (Dr. Smith, PhD Psycology), to make themselves look like they are saviors to a fallen world to save all those people who suffer and they don't have a clue. People had mental problems long before we had people with three letters who went to school for years and we've had mental health professionals for just as long. It's just 100s of years ago they were called "wise men", "pastors", etc. You don't need a PhD in Pyscology to help someone out, to listen to them, etc. you need the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

I understand; and if more people did their due diligence it wouldn't be a pet peeve; but when it comes to any type of mental or behavioral problem, the automatic response is "go see a psychologist" or "go see a therapist" or STTE of you can only find the answers by taking this pill, or that pill. Basically, psychology has become our religion rather than God. We wouldn't tolerate any percentage of quacks in the field of oncology, yet we tolerate quacks in the field of psychology. Why?

I seem to have touched a nerve. No we don't know what causes it. For #1 Plenty of people have had rotten lives and some get depressed and many don't; some people have perfectly great lives and still deal with depression. We can say having a rotten life might be an instigator of depression, but to say that it caused it? You can't say that at all. What about people who lived 200 years ago, compared to today-they lived pretty rotten lives, but their mental health (or at least what we know of it) was probably better than collectively today. #2 Sure . . .but why are they always negative Nacy's? No one knows why they are so negative. #3 Sure that is true, but very small cases. #4 Are they depressed b/c of the drugs or do they use the drugs/alcohol b/c they are depressed?? #5 Because the Gospel contains the answers to all problems that do not reside in the physical realm. You have admitted the problem resides in the non-physical realm. If the problem resides in the non-physical realm then the solution to the problem resides in the non-physical realm-i.e. the Gospel of Jesus Christ. It sounds like you have found a way to deal with your problem and work through it; I guarantee the solutions are based upon principles of the Gospel. Saying the solutions are found in the gospel is different than saying you are a "bad person" b/c you deal with depression and "only if you were more righteous" it would all go away.

Okay, fine call it a young science; but how much actual damage are we really doing to people? What are all the cost to be associated with drugging people up with drugs that we aren't sure works? Just to make people feel like we know? How much damage is being done to children diagnosed with ADHD put on ritalin and heaven knows what else, when the founder of the concept of ADHD says: "A tall, thin man with glasses and suspenders opened the door to his apartment in Harvard Square in 2009, invited me to the kitchen table, and poured coffee. He said that he never would have thought his discovery would someday become so popular. “ADHD is a prime example of a fabricated disorder,” Eisenberg said. “The genetic predisposition to ADHD is completely overrated.” SPIEGEL: In the 1960s, mental disorders were virtually unknown among children. Today, official sources claim that one child in eight in the United States is mentally ill. Kagan: That’s true, but it is primarily due to fuzzy diagnostic practices. Let’s go back 50 years. We have a 7-year-old child who is bored in school and disrupts classes. Back then, he was called lazy. Today, he is said to suffer from ADHD (Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder). That’s why the numbers have soared. SPIEGEL: Experts speak of 5.4 million American children who display the symptoms typical of ADHD. Are you saying that this mental disorder is just an invention? Kagan: That’s correct; it is an invention. Every child who’s not doing well in school is sent to see a pediatrician, and the pediatrician says: “It’s ADHD; here’s Ritalin.” In fact, 90 percent of these 5.4 million kids don’t have an abnormal dopamine metabolism. The problem is, if a drug is available to doctors, they’ll make the corresponding diagnosis." -------------- Is that helping or hurting? Is that causing more problems or solving problems? No psychologists and their godless theology have caused more problems with today's children, parents, individuals, etc. than they possibly know how to solve. It's not a young field-it's an evil field, based on a godless ideology who's cure is worse than the disease.

Okay, but what if the foundation of their premise is wrong . . .what if they are searching for answers in the wrong direction. Regardless of how scientific they are-they will never find them. I'm very sure that those who did blood-letting, etc. had a method to the madness as to why it worked, conducted experiments, etc. We do it all the time as humans-we don't need some formalized scientific method or be taught it to actually use it. A toddler learning to walk tries things out, finds out what doesn't work, makes modifications, tries again. What if the entire foundation of psychology is wrong? That is my premise, that the underlying assumptions with psychology rely not on God but on atheism and in man's flesh; and you can never solve the things of the Spirit relying on man's flesh.

I agree, so why are we searching for answers to a non-physical phenomenon in the physical realm. Drugs change the physical make-up (differing chemical compositions is still changing the physical realm). If the above really does represent your view, I'm in agreement with you. And if we are in agreement, then the answers we seek to solve a non-physical phenomenon can not, will not reside in the physical realm, only in the spiritual realm.

And I understand JAG's PoV. And if most people had that viewpoint, I probably wouldn't be so extreme. I just think it's ridiculous that society as a whole has bought into this idea, hook, line, and sinker that the mental health profession actually knows what they are doing-they don't. If they (and or the drugs they use) helps, great, fine, no problems. But don't kid yourself into thinking that they know exactly what they are doing or how to fix whatever is wrong. One of my big beefs with the industry is how they label people. You are bi-polar, or you are manic-depressant or whatever other label; basically if you are "diagnosed" then that's it-you have that diagnosis for life; for the rest of your life you can be on disability, etc. The industry doesn't actually care about people getting better and actually fixing their own problems-they ultimately care about making sure that for the rest of your life you take xyz medicine. How much money does the pharmaceutical industry make on these anti-psychotic drugs that may or may not work? Tons and tons-they aren't interested in you being 100% healthy, no they want you to take a pill for the rest of your life so they can earn $400 a pop every time you take a pill twice a day 365 days a year for 40 years. They don't care that life changes, you learn, you grow, you change, become different-nope, they just care that you take a pill for your "condition" that no one can actually measure, no one can actually tell if the pill you are taking works like they say it does. 18% of the US population has some sort of diagnosed "mental illness"-at what point does it stop becoming an illness and just a condition of being human? 18%, 62 million people, say even half of those take pills, 32 million people on powerful drugs that no one knows exactly what they are doing except for saying "it makes me feel better". At $400 a day twice a day that's about 300k per year per person. For 32 million people, that's billions of dollars. http://truecostofhealthcare.net/the_pharmaceutical_industry/ Pzifer had 67 Billion dollars in revenue in 2011. You want to know why insurance costs are so high . . . here is your reason. Medicated, drugged up Americans taking pills that nobody knows exactly what they do, charging it free of cost to insurance companies and everyone pays the bill. It's a very, very sick racket .. . worse than voodoo medicine. What I've said is different than saying depression/bi-polar/manic-depressant, etc. doesn't exist; oh the symptoms are there all right-but we have no clue as to what the cause is or why.

Yeap . . .I'm in total agreement on this. And for what it's worth . . I do wish that crap hadn't happened to you. I didn't grow up in a "bad stock" family, but I have learned in my life to have empathy for those that did-I really honest to goodness wish it didn't happen; it would make life much easier.

Absolutely, there are going to be successful anecdotes; it's even likely that they wouldn't be Stake Presidents today if they weren't raised like that-b/c there is a lot that one can learn that will help one become more like Christ in those situations. But go ask them if they had their druthers if they would be raised in a stable two parent household. I think you know what their answer would be.

I would say shouldn't but my opinion isn't worth much . .. people can do what they want to in life. It's what I'll teach my kids, but whatever they choose in life is their choice-I don't live their life for them.

Lol, nope fail try again Neuro. I'll look deeper into them, but on the surface fail. This is what real medicine looks like: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4251123/ "However, a high postoperative AFP level was associated with worse OS (OR=0.16, 95% CI: 0.05–0.48) and relapse-free survival (RFS) (OR=0.18, 95% CI: 0.08–0.43) compared to a low postoperative AFP level in patients with OYST. In addition, a postoperative AFP level of >1,000 ng/ml was associated with a decrease in OS (OR=0.16, 95% CI: 0.05–0.50) and RFS (OR=0.21, 95% CI: 0.08–0.57). In conclusion, the postoperative, but not the preoperative, AFP level was found to be a prognostic factor in patients with OYST. In particular, a postoperative AFP level of >1,000 ng/ml was an indicator of poor prognosis in patients with OYST." ------ What chemical did the anti-depressants reduce? By how much, what was the measured valued? Real medicine has measurable numbers and tests that are repeatable, measurable, and accurate. From the first article: "One reason for the questioning of the SSRIs has been that many of the clinical trials conducted by the pharmaceutical companies years ago to prove their efficacy failed: critics have thus pointed out that less than half of the studies demonstrated a statistically significant difference between the tested SSRI and placebo." In the article the actually tell you what I'm telling you. Then they say "We investigated what happens if one instead analyzes the effect of the treatment on the key item of the scale —depressed mood.”Using this analysis, they found that 29 of the 32 studies comparing active drug to placebo — 91% — showed a significant improvement in depressed mood favoring the active drug. In contrast, using the HDRS showed only 44% of the studies demonstrated superiority of the SSRI." Which is another way of saying . . .okay so we weren't getting the results that we liked so let's change how we measure the results we are getting and miracle of miracles look at the improvement!!!! Again, there is nothing that tells me that the "selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors" were inhibited by 50% or that it went up or down by x amount. In other words, they can't measure what they claim they are trying to do. The only way they are measuring is by how people feel after they take the drug. Okay great. Two things, show me (again, please I'm begging you) a double-blind study of the drug against a placebo, and finally if you can't tell me by how much the drug affects the "selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors" then how do I know a) that the drug actually affects what you tell me it affects and b) that something else in life, some other type of food, activity, or drug wouldn't do the same thing!!! You can't measure what you are trying to affect (except in generic terms of "does this make you feel better"-okay great but lots of things make me feel better, that doesn't mean you've figured out my problem or solved it or even told me what to do about), you can't narrow down exactly why, I feel this way, all you tell me is some BS blather about ""selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors", but you can't measure what it is, I have no piece of paper with a number that tells me based on taking a sample of brain fluid it is at 1.0 and it should be at .01. You just tell me "hey take this pill it will make you feel better", call me if you have any problems. If that ain't voodoo science, what is? You tell me I have a "chemical imbalance" but you haven't run one, no not one single test extracting my blood, urine, brain matter, sent it to a lab and receive results on it. Again your studies aren't studies, they are BS fluff pieces. When you have an article like the one on cancer, I show above . ..then we can talk. I've got an article-I need to dig it up printed earlier this year where one of the founders of this idea of "selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors" actually says STTE of oops I think we made a mistake about what we think about "selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors". It is just mind-boggling to me. We wouldn't stand for this kind of voodoo medicine in cancer, in dealing with broken bones, in any number of things that ail us . . .yet when it comes to psychology-they get a pass. What a load of dooky. I tell you a good study that I do believe; Concussion, the neuroscience mortician who discovered that NFL players had significant lesions inside their brains. He demonstrated verifiable that there was something significantly wrong between NFL players who had multiple concussions and normal individuals who didn't. Based upon what those players went through (and how several of them killed themselves) it is highly likely that yes, their brains were physically damaged and that damage was causing them severe mental problems. Oh wait a second, my CFR article is one of the articles you sent me: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0087089/ "The nerve cells in our brain use various chemicals to pass on impulses. Even though not all details are known, experts believe that depression is caused by an imbalance of certain chemicals like serotonin which then affects some nerve connections. Antidepressants aim to increase the availability of these chemicals. The various drugs do that in different ways." Notice the use of what I like to call "weasel" words. "Not all details are known", "experts believe" "affects some nerve connections". That's just a fancy way of saying we don't know, but we believe this to be true. Their viewpoint holds no more validity than my viewpoint that I believe God can heal depression. It's based on faith-not on science, not on facts. They admit they are proscribing very powerful drugs, they don't know how depression is caused or why, they just simply believe, or have faith that some chemical like serotonin is responsible-but again they don't know. They don't know how to measure the affects, besides asking "does this make you feel better". Yeap . . .that sounds like great real medicine for ya (more like voodoo science).