yjacket

I'm an engineer so I tend to think in numbers. I think of perfect as complete, whole, unity. Perfect to me doesn't mean same. In engineering a variety of solutions exist to solve a problem and in many cases each solution is a perfect solution even though it is different from the rest. So I personally think our resurrected bodies will be beautiful but different, maybe based on The Golden Ratio. The Math Behind the Beauty Using something like the golden ratio as a metric, everyone can be beautiful yet different.

I would also add that whatever your decision, one thing is certain; consequences must be had. One can not be allowed to make such a mockery of marriage vows; otherwise the very meaning of marriage (commitment to one another) has no meaning.

I don't even think the words I'm sorry can bring anything. Man, if I ever did anything remotely close, my dad would beat the living tar out of me (he put me against the wall once for disrespecting mom, but besides spankings no physical violence). In my family, I'd be disowned and taken behind the woodshed. My parents would take my wife and kids in as their own and leave me out--just the way it is. As a missionary, I saw so much of junk like this in Argentina. Truly a very, very sad situation. Back then one of the scriptures that gave much comfort was D&C 121. Hopefully, it will provide comfort, hope, and the answers you're looking for in these difficult times.

I'm in a posting mood (working from home . . . waiting for my experiments to finish running . . . .). I'm a guy so I apologize in advance for any stupidness :-). This struck me as a little odd " I have no problem forgiving him, but what he is doing now is just as hurtful as the affair." While I am a stanch proponent of making marriages work, not much gets me riled up more than, woman abusers and womanizers. I have very, very little sympathy for either. Yes we all make mistakes, but adultery is 2nd only to murder in sin. A person doesn't just go and kill someone and then say "sorry, my bad . . . ". It takes years, decades or even a whole lifetime for one to pay the consequences for murder. Adultery is one of those things you just don't do and should take years to pay consequences. The more prolonged and premeditated the adultery, the harder the consequences. So I find the above quote odd. How is the griping over a clean house, not spending time with kids, him believing you've wronged him (all things that can and do occur in marriages at one time or another) worse--edited--as bad as adultery (which does not)? If anything this man should be groveling and begging to get back in your good graces. And is that what hurts, that he isn't? I have no answers, but several questions. Did he intend to commit adultery to sabotage his marriage b/c he lacked the courage to fix whatever was wrong with his marriage? Is he trying to get you to divorce him, or does he believe that he can act with impunity and that it doesn't matter? I will never understand how a husband/father can commit adultery with all that they stand to lose. How could I look at my son knowing that I committed the ultimate betrayal . . . I hope you are able to come out of this better, no one should go through this type of betrayal. Or maybe I'm old-school and just believe a commitment is a commitment and to be a man is to honor that commitment.

backroads . . . good posts. I would also add to make sure you have metrics in your ultimatum. With addiction/depression it is almost a given that he will slip up (so I wouldn't be too crushed if he does), it's more of are the slipups better/worse, is he making a concerted effort to improve, etc. The only way you know if it is better or worse is to have something to compare against. And there needs to be consequences when he does slip up, not necessarily as drastic as "I'm leaving" but maybe a "go sleep on the couch" :-). I hope things improve and your marriage is salvaged and blossoms. I recognize at times a divorce is warranted and necessary, but since I view a marriage as a living breathing entity, to me it is extremely sad and disheartening when it happens. At one point in the marriage life was bliss (otherwise why would you have gotten married!!) and now so much pain. A divorce is not something that should be celebrated (IMO), but something to be mourned as necessary just like putting down a sick dog.

Now I do agree, if one of the parties is not willing to work (compromise) in the marriage . . . then divorce might be an option. An unwillingness to try to understand the other's point of view, try to compromise and find a solution, basically a my-way or high-way attitude . . . That means one individual does not love or care for the other at all. At that point something must change only after all options have been exhausted to bring a sense of love, respect, and mutual understanding back into the relationship.

I'm probably the odd ball here, (and this is my personal opinion) but I'm always shocked and saddened to see so many posters advocating divorce with so little information given. The default should always be to save a marriage unless an individual is in physical danger (then run away ASAP). I'm truly sorry that so many are burned, but it doesn't have to be that way. The time to run away is before one is married, not after. As members of the Church we all know the heart of the gospel is change. Faith/Hope, Repentance/Forgiveness, etc. I had a quasi-flash thought appear. Does the OP feel loved? Does the OP's spouse love them? When working with behavioral issues with little kids you never tackle all of them at once. You tackle just one behavior that you want to eliminate and set boundaries. You work on that behavior until it is resolved. Generally the many of the other behaviors end up resolving themselves. It might be good to have a sit down in a calm manner explaining you don't feel loved (if that is the case) and give an example of why. Ask him if he loves you, ask him if he wants to love you. Ask him if he feels loved, and that you love him. And then maybe start with if you love me, then let's work on 1 behavior to demonstrate that love (love is action, not a word or feeling). Both individuals have to be in agreement on what to do. It can't be "stop porn" and he says "yeah . . . okay". And with little kids, you set all the parameters up from, what is the consequence of screwing up (b/c little kids will always screw up). You give them opportunities to screw up so they can learn how to control themselves. It's a process, but it gets better with time.

You're right, she may not change her mind. To my knowledge I am not saying anything different about loving his choice than the prophets have said. Agency and Love in Marriage - Ensign Oct. 2000 Of course this man needs help, it is a very difficult problem to deal with. I would be absolutely crushed if a similar situation happened to me, I honestly don't know what I'd do. I do think that divorce is out of the question. I was responding to some of the seemingly more rash responses to divorce his wife without further information. Yes she has gone back on her word, but is that enough reason to start over and divorce? It doesn't sound like the OP thought that, but posters have said that. He should love his choice. Marriage is a very sacred (especially one performed in the temple) and everything should be done to preserve that entity. I would also say that motherhood is a pretty powerful instinct and chances IMO are pretty good that at some point she will change her mind. And you're darn right that I hope my wife would stick by me if I made a rash decision to not have kids and I would stick by her. She married me b/c she loved me and chooses to love me as much as I love her and choose to love her.

I see you haven't been in a lot of heated arguments. People say "you never do xyz" or "I always do xyz" the declarative always or never is usually more a "you generally do xyz". "Never", does not mean never, it generally means not right now. I have no clue as to what the situation is, maybe this marriage is on the rocks, hu knows. I'd say before you start saying it's a deal breaker, one should look at the why and really try to understand the why. Obviously the marriage has communication issues. If she just decided to not have kids, she can just as easily just decide to have kids. If you don't work through the issues you'll never know. While the church obviously encourages children and it is part of the duty and responsibility of couples to replenish the earth, I can't find a single LDS article that advises couples to divorce because one doesn't want kids. The gal is 23-24, if they've been married for 5 years it means she's been married since she was 18-19. Far from being selfish, she might have never had a chance to find herself. She might feel like kids would tie her down more than a marriage has tied her down b/c she was never an adult without being married. I don't know this are all suppositions. So maybe instead of focusing on kids, maybe the husband should focus on making sure his wife's needs are meet, that she feels fulfillment and enjoyment in her life, that she feels like she is accomplishing something, loved, appreciated beyond just her ability to have kids. Again did he marry his wife or did he marry her ovaries? (sorry to be somewhat crude) This couple still has plenty of time to have kids, maybe not 8 kids, but easily 4 kids. We didn't have our first until my wife was 26, 2nd at 28. Advocating a marriage break up now is just plain dumb based on the info. given. Fix the marriage and then the kids will come. This man choose his love, now he should love his choice. (If he/she is engaged in adultery or abuse or something equally horrific, okay maybe not)

What the . . . ??? I have to seriously disagree with the previous couple of remarks. Based on the OP, I can't say I've heard a legitimate reason for divorce (maybe one exists, but not based on just not attending church and not wanting kids right now). I'm honestly kind of surprised at the previous remarks. Considering the lack of information given, counseling someone to leave their marriage in this situation seems ludicrous. Kids are awesome, but when it's all said and done the family core unit is two individuals, husband and wife. You don't marry your kids, you married your wife. You don't marry your wife b/c she has ovaries, you marry her because you love her and want to be with her. I think marriage has been cheapened drastically by people cutting and running for the "happiness they deserve". Divorce

I don't comment much, but this is interesting. Sounds like she is basically scared and/or had bad experiences with kids. I'm not sure how other young parents feel, but IMO societal messages have really screwed up parenting. Current society would have you believe that all kids are brats, as a parent your life revolves around them, they are a burden, you can't grow or "fulfill your destiny" if you have kids, etc. I wanted to have kids but our 1st was a big challenge for the 1st 18 months. While I had my parents as role models my wife didn't have hers as role models to understand how to raise kids. Things were quite tough and my parents seeing us in dire straights got us several parenting books by John Rosemond. They were absolutely essential in helping my wife and I understand better our roles as parents. He goes back to the old school way of raising kids (no you don't beat your kids!). Basically parents have been raising kids for hundreds or years, why is it that we now have so many problems with children. A parents job is to emancipate the child from them, teach them how to be adults so they can live fulfilling lives. The child's life revolves around the parent, not visa versa. Sure, you have to provide for the necessities, but he makes a point that being a homemaker isn't being a babysitter (which is what I think too many people think it is). You can have a very fulfilling life while taking care of kids. My mom was always doing home improvement projects (tiling, painting, gardening, sewing, etc), she'd tell us go play in your room, outside, etc. or help me with x. She didn't babysit us, she had a life to live and we were a part of it. Being a father or mother and finding your authoritative voice with your children providing them with structure, balance, etc. will probably help an individual grow more than most things in life. And the best thing happens when you are a parent (sure the kids moan b/c you tell them xyz, but they love that you provide the guidelines for them), you love your children and they love you. And eventually that relationship can grow into one of the most fulfilling of a person's life. Words cannot express the joy that comes into my life when my son spontaneously tells me that he loves me, or when he tells my wife that he loves her. So while you can't force her to accept something she doesn't want, maybe part of the problem is a lack of good role model parents and families raising kids. I sure know I feel like a lone wolf sometimes parenting my children. sidenote: it is one thing I find interesting, for all the guidance the Church gives on families etc. the lack of good material for actual parenting is weird. But maybe either I haven't looked in the right places or the Church assumes it's a personal matter. Anywho, I highly recommend any of John Rosemond's books, absolutely fantastic.

1st time post here. Hopefully this doesn't come off to harsh. She may be cheating . . . but based on your comments, you might want to be a little more introspective. Be a man. Honor the commitment you've made to this wonderful woman to the fullest extent possible. No eyes for others, no thinking about what could have, should have, would have, or could be (with another woman) -- they are irrelevant. You have a commitment with your wife, and until such time as proof positive exists that she is cheating or abusive, make your marriage work. Unless she has done something to break trust, trust her. Marriage takes work. Starter marriages are false. No matter who you marry (stong LDS woman, etc), issues will ALWAYS exists, it's how you handle them that make the difference. I've seen married non-member couples who have wonderful marriages and sealed spouses who divorce. Do you think you made a mistake and run away or man up to the decisions you've made stick with it and with the Lord's help make a wonderful marriage? Your choice.