yjacket

Good articles, though, Thanks!!

It's a competition with yourself vs. competition with others, and a pride at overcoming yourself rather than looking at others. Granted that can lead to a pride vs. others and self-glorification. I mean shoot, have you ever felt elated when you beat your personal best? That is a proper "pride".

" This sin has many faces. It leads some to revel in their own perceived self-worth, accomplishments, talents, wealth, or position. They count these blessings as evidence of being “chosen,” “superior,” or “more righteous” than others. This is the sin of “Thank God I am more special than you.” At its core is the desire to be admired or envied. It is the sin of self-glorification. For others, pride turns to envy: they look bitterly at those who have better positions, more talents, or greater possessions than they do. They seek to hurt, diminish, and tear down others in a misguided and unworthy attempt at self-elevation. When those they envy stumble or suffer, they secretly cheer. " This is not what I'm talking about.

Okay . . . did you even read what I wrote or what you sent?

Sure, think out-loud no worries with that. Just you'll never get a definitive answer or the answer you want. Murder you will get a definitive answer, it's very clearly spoken of and about; one can easily condemn those who commit murder b/c it is well defined. You're right being honest in all our dealings is something we should do, the celestial law. Now define it. I went to the dictionary looked up what honesty means compared that to extreme couponing and was told that's not good enough. Thankfully the conversation has shifted from seemingly condemning those who extreme coupon as dishonest to celestial vs. telestial law. The answer you want is that extreme couponing is against celestial law. That is an impossible answer to give. The best answer to give is no it is not against celestial law and as in most things in life use your own judgement-no prophets have spoken against it, no scriptures, etc. No basis exists except for our own interpretations. Now, one day they might speak on it-and at that point we'll have further clarity. The only firm fixed Celestial laws we know of are temple recommend questions and temple covenants; and most of those are extremely personal! If you believe you shouldn't do it, then fine come out and say it- I personally believe I should not extreme coupon. If your friends/family are non-members I would shy away from "because I'm LDS I don't extreme coupon". In that case you are using the church as cover for personal beliefs that the church may or may not support. A simple "based on my personal understanding of scripture, belief in Jesus Christ, and an attempt to live my life in harmony with His teachings" I do not extreme coupon. Unfortunately, many times in the Church we think we have exclusivity on being right. Nope, we have authority. You very well could find many other non-LDS people, Christian or Muslim or others who believe extreme couponing is wrong. For me personally, for example I don't drink hardly any soft drinks or drinks that have caffeine. Does the Word of Wisdom tell me not to? No, is it part of the temple interview? No. Can I drink caffeinated drinks and still go to the Celestial kingdom-sure. However, as I try to live my life, I personally have realized that in the spirit of the word of wisdom soft drinks are bad for me, so 99.9% of the time I don't drink any soft drinks. But, that is a personal decision that is not binding on anyone else. I completely understand those in the church who may think otherwise. And it is something I have come to after study, thought, and personal growth. So sure, ask away speak "out loud", just recognize you won't get a good answer or the answer you want to hear. And you can't and won't be able to convince others in the LDS church of that personal opinion. That answer will only come from much personal study, personal revelation and the Spirit.

Thanks. I understand the pride (one of my family's greatest strengths and weaknesses!!). But the pride is not an I'm better than others pride; and it's different than not being humble (the trails my dad faced tested him sorely and humbled him); I don't know quite how to explain it. Maybe it's more self-respecting pride-if that makes sense.

I'll never forget in an Institute class our teacher made a comment about the percentage of people who were temple worthy who thought they would go to the Celestial Kingdom. I don't know if the stat. he quoted was correct, but it was shockingly low (like 30% or so). My opinion; if you are temple worthy, then you're going to the Celestial Kingdom. No need to impose more restrictions. This doesn't mean one shouldn't try and lead a more righteous life; it just means you've met the bar. As one lives righteously they find more things they should or shouldn't do, not b/c someone tells them but b/c they feel that way. That is all well and good, if you feel you personally shouldn't extreme coupon, great. I have a big problem with others who have gotten to that point trying to enforce their personal beliefs and prejudices on others and/or condemning them. On extreme couponing, I will probably never subscript to your belief. While I'm not an economist; I have studied economic law quite extensively (it's a hobby), for me it has nothing to do with morality or feelings it is pure and simple business. I or my wife may not extreme coupon to 90% savings (doubtful if they can consistently achieve that anyways!) but I don't condemn those who do. I have better things to do with my time; but if I'm unemployed or on a much tighter budget with more time I can certainly see the value of doing so. It is not my place to judge their intent. The fact they are doing it abiding by the rules (if they weren't abiding by the rules the stores would stop them!) tells me they have intent enough. They have spent countless hours obtaining many skills valuable in jobs (paying attention to detail, budgeting, etc), and I have the right to sit on my throne and condemn them? Seems a little bit like looking beyond the mark. " "Extreme couponing" is when a person is getting essentially all of their grocery store products for less than what it takes to make it (maybe closer to 95% savings or more) and therefore there is a monetary loss associated to it without any hope for the store or the manufacturer to regain that loss from' that person." This is so completely fallacious. I know for some this is an extremely hard concept to grasp but the amount of money it costs to produce something is irrelevant to what is sells for-they are sunk costs. If the costs to produce are more than what it sells for, it tells the company to stop producing x. If the costs to produce are lower, it tells the company to produce more of x. Companies make business decisions thousands of times over; if they lose more than they like on coupons them will make less coupons-plain and simple. Whether extreme couponers are using them or regular coupon users it doesn't matter. "Knowing that the above purposes are the reasons companies make coupons, the person that says I am going to take but not participate in the real reason the company is making the coupon in the first place is not loving their neighbor as themselves. They are saying, I am going to get mine but stick it to someone else." How do you know their intent? How do you know that is their thought process? Again, the root concern seems more based on the idea that someone else is "abusing" the system making it "unfair" for the rest. The problem is "abusing" and "unfair" are subjective terms. You might think they are being abusive; but they think they are not being abusive (who is to say who is right?). So again rather than worry about whether the neighbor is being abusive, their intent, etc. we should concentrate on ourselves. This strikes me as a real problem in our society. "I don't agree with what you are doing, ergo you are evil and wrong." IMO, if you can't find it in the scriptures or spoken by a modern prophet it is personal opinion/revelation. Application to others is a very slippery slope. That is what working out our own salvation is all about, it's a personal path taking the guidelines we've been given and going from there. Once everyone is working on their own path instead of worrying so much about everyone else we'll all get there a lot quicker.

My two cents. I look at one of the great examples in my life of my father. Left home after high school, hitchhiked from one end of the country to another; worked odd jobs; was so poor he slept in abandoned cars and went dumpster diving just to survive (he was 18ish). He barely graduated college and ended up going bankrupt twice in his life, once only 8 years ago. Unemployed multiple times, most recently at the age of 59, yet today he has well enough to retire on. I am always amazed at his hard work, willingness to do whatever it takes to provide for his family, and ability to bounce back from adversity-to take lemons and build a lemonade stand. I've learned several important lessons from him. Never give up, money isn't the end all be all of life-it's more of a way of keeping score, always have a reserve, save today so you won't be on the streets tomorrow. Finally (a lesson reinforced on my mission) any day my family has food in their bellies, clothes on their backs, and a roof over their heads is a great day. I know some will disagree, but in all the tough years my dad had, he never took unemployment assistance or welfare. He felt by doing so it would cheapen him, lower his self worth and would be admitting he had failed. While he would have temporary setbacks he would never admit he failed. As he says (and what I know from spending 2 years among people who literally have nothing), I don't know what hard times are. Sometimes I question it when I'm driving an hour and half to work, but in my heart I know he's right.

Intent has nothing to do with anything. A couple of good economic classes would do wonders to help out. Intent, feelings, common sense etc. are moot. The basic argument presented is "I don't think it's fair; I don't think coupons were intended for that use; someone is getting something for nothing, how is that honest?; they don't really intend to use it; they are selling at a loss, etc." All of these arguments are based on feelings rather than facts. The amount of money it takes to produce an item is completely irrelevant to what it sells for. It is called sunk costs. Profit is irrelevant at the point of sale! Profit only determines if they will stay in business. The only things that determine the ultimate price are supply and demand; ultimately what the buyer is willing to pay and what the seller is willing to get. If the seller is unwilling to sell at a given price they will not sell (i.e. they will change the rules). Extreme couponing doesn't involve honesty in anyway. It would only be dishonest if one tries to defraud, like try and use a coupon specified for toothpaste for turkey. In that case it is clearly dishonest. My wife "extreme" coupons and saves about 60-65% regularly on our total groceries. I hardly think she is dishonest. Morality is actually pretty cut and dry (don't lie, steal, cheat, abuse, run around, go to church, say your prayers, etc.). Intent can determine degree but generally one can't say "I cheated on my wife but I didn't mean to I was in a bad situation, etc." and be moral. Arguments like these strike me as inferiority driven or a take on "keeping up with the jones's". An I wouldn't do it, b/c I don't feel it's fair so those who are doing it are wrong. Is it fair that someone today can buy a house in some parts of the country at 25% off peak pricing? Probably not, but it doesn't matter. Unfortunately to many it does matter; instead of worrying about your neighbor so much people should worry about their own life. Just b/c I wouldn't buy 100 bags of dogfood for overage doesn't mean it's dishonest or wrong. From wiki: Honesty refers to a facet of moral character and denotes positive, virtuous attributes such as integrity, truthfulness, and straightforwardness along with the absence of lying, cheating, or theft.[1] Integrity:Integrity is a concept of consistency of actions, values, methods, measures, principles, expectations, and outcomes. (basically are you consistent in what you do) I do not see how extreme couponers are lying, cheating, or stealing; I do not see how they are not consistent (integrity);

Lol, exactly! I'm glad for some of the stories that have given me hope that things can work out. I guess this is an appropriate quote: When love is not madness, it is not love. ~Pedro Calderon de la Barca It's weird, I was in the madly in love, infatuation stage-yet I somehow still kept my head . . . I'm not sure how that was possible.

Yes, I am married to an absolutely wonderful woman with 2 beautiful children (please read above :-) ). I couldn't and wouldn't ask for anything else. There is nothing better in the world to be married to the right person in the right place at the right time. Just because you meet the right person, doesn't mean it's the right time; if they are not temple worthy then it probably won't be the right place either. My sister met the right guy, yet decided she should elope without telling anyone and got married by a justice of he peace. 6 years later she longs for him to be a member. Maybe she did what was right, maybe not-that's not for me to say. If she wanted my advice I would have told her not to marry a non-member. Maybe my bro. is doing what's right, maybe not, again not for me to say. If he wants my advice, it's wait a little while. The most important is to meet the right person; but combining the other two help make the road easier. Hey it was hard for us, but we sure made it to the temple; I even remember asking if it was the right time (and the answer was to wait, and I'm glad for that).

Please don't be obtuse, that advise was already given. Not every answer the Lord gives is through direct revelation. Many times other individuals hold the answers we seek. (I'm not saying that I hold the answer to this decision, b/c I don't). Again, lesson is learned, he was looking for approval vs. advice. If I had known that apriori I would have told him it's not mine to give; only the Lord can give approval and whatever the decision, congrats. Big difference between that and hey what do you think of xyz? He's getting married in a month, cool; I still think he's nuts, but it's not my decision.

I also might have been unclear, if he didn't live here, that would be one thing; he lives here, but he is temporarily away for a summer internship.

Like I said, I'm not offering him any other bit of advice to him (it's not worth a family relationship), the advice he wants to hear is "go for it" rather than a "hey, that's awesome you found someone, maybe you should plan a little bit". Lesson learned, even when advice is solicited keep mouth shut b/c he doesn't really want it.

Poor planning on your part does not make a crisis on my part. My bro. is the youngest and frequently waits to the last minute to do something and then asks others to help him out. That's not asking for help, that's not taking responsibility. You're right financial affairs aren't my business, but if/when he's married in college with a couple of kids taking welfare then it is (yes I've known LDS couples that have done that). Now instead of being self-reliant he is leaching off of society. I've got no problem with people driving themselves off a potential cliff, it's their life. I've got a problem when people asking others to pay for their poor decisions. The guy asked for personal advice and I gave it (I also told him the things along the lines of what you said).

Maybe a little :-), but you can get to know someone real well by writing letters (e-mail, etc.) and 6 months is fast, but depending on circumstances not necessarily unreasonable. Personally, I think ~6 months dating and 6-12 months engagement seems about right. That did not happen with me. We dated about 2 years, she went on a mission, I finished school she came back and within 6 months married. I was a sophmore when we meet and I wasn't about to throw myself into marriage without a job, while racking my brain trying to understand Differential Equations, Calc III, Electromagnetism, etc. I knew I couldn't do justice to my family.

I completely understand this. Somewhere in the scriptures (Paul, maybe) says something like it is better for them to marry than to burn. I can only assume that if you are going to get yourself into trouble then yes by all means get married. My brother has no money, he is reliant entirely on student loans and the piddly amount he earned over the summer. He is going to an extremely difficult engineering school, studying to be an engineer. He is already locked into his housing for school (he considered for a moment to have his bride stay in his tiny 3x10 room with shared living and kitchen with 5 other guys). He finally decided that wasn't such a good idea. She lives cross county, hasn't finished school; she plans on finishing school on-line while he is going to school. I'm pretty sure she will be done in May. When she's done they plan on her supporting him through school (good luck on finding more than a Wal-mart job with an Associates job in this economy). The worst is he asks for advice on his situation and when I give him an opinion he shuts down because he doesn't like the advice. He then expects people to bail him out; i.e. he wanted someone in the family to go look at an apartment complex back home and tell him if it was okay b/c he won't be able to look at it until after he is married. At this point, I do not plan on saying another word to him. I think he is headed for a potential toxic mix, sophmore @ tough engineering school in a very difficult degree + no money + newlyweds + potential babies + very little planning and time = potential toxic mix. The suggestion that he shuts down over, is to wait until Spring, he won't have to break his school lease (which will cost him money he doesn't have), give him more legs in school (he's only had 1 semester back from a mission), he can write her to get to know her more, she can finish her associates degree, he'll go back where his internship is, have more opportunity to earn some money, etc. I'm sure he'll make it, I just don't understand making life harder than it already is.

I'm not debating whether you can know if you should marry them (I think that can be pretty quick); I think relationships are more complicated than a simple to marry or not to marry.

Did you meet her immediately after you came back, if yes I would say 9 months is IMO a little short, but not crazy. Crazy is like Eowyn's story. Shoot due to my work, I think I've been away from home longer than it will take my brother to have met someone and get married. <3 months IMO is nuts.

I have a brother who will most likely be married in a month after meeting a girl about 1.5 months ago. Shoot, he might even elope. I'm curious if anyone knows of crazy marriages that have lasted for a long time. I personally think he is probably making a mistake (not in the girl, just in timing, anyone heard of planning?). He went on a summer internship single and will come back married (he's a sophomore).

I also think many people gloss over financial aspects of life thinking all is peaches and roses. One of the major causes for divorce is money. It doesn't have to be that way. Everyone has to have the right expectations, open discussions and honest conversations about money. Plan, plan, plan, and plan for the unexpected. Budget, budget, budget. The biggest expense for kids for the 1st couple of years is 1) birth . . (depending on rates, insurance, etc. could cost as little as 750, to 5k for a normal birth, to 10k+ if complicated.) 2) diapers and baby food, extreme couponing oh yeah! Generally speaking my wife has ~450 a month for food/clothing/etc. for the family, 4 people including 2 kids. It's tight, but it works. She knows what's expected, I know what's expected, we communicate and it all works out well. Raising kids so far is really cheap. But I don't know if many people could do it like we do b/c it takes extreme discipline. Overall, 2 kids probably cost me an extra 100/month (and that is really high, probably more like 50-75). If you have a boy, just make sure you have good insurance (3 trips to the emergency room so far). So it really depends on each individual families budgets, needs, wants, and discipline. Kids really don't need much when they are little, just a whole lot of love and good parents. And yes they are the greatest thing since sliced bread :-). Just please, please, please don't be a leach :-).

Basically, have as many kids in whatever prosperity level you feel like, just don't ask others to pay for it.

My personal opinion: if you are on welfare or going to go on welfare due to kids, you shouldn't be having kids. Others will probably disagree, but IMO offloading the financial responsibilities of a family to those who pay taxes, etc. is morally wrong. Now I understand emergency situations, like not needing welfare, having kids and then a job loss. Affording kids IMO is providing the necessities, food, clothing, shelter. If you can not provide those you shouldn't be having kids. If you have to rely on societies good graces to have kids, you shouldn't be having kids. The societal "safety net" IMO should be for emergency unplanned drastic situations (job loss, act of God, etc.--not just b/c one wants kids-which is a choice).

Another quickie, for me it is very important to provide and protect my family. I would probably not have had kids right then, if I felt I couldn't provide for them (thankfully while things were tight, I didn't worry about providing). So if your husband is like that, try to assuage his concerns and help him understand that he will be able to provide.

My wife and I were living in a very high cost of living area, in a 2 bedroom 800 sqft apart. as I was really trying to save for the future. We were married for about two years and I wanted to have kids but financially I was a little concerned. I think my wife would have been happy to have kids at any time. About 3-6 months before my wife became pregnant, I began to feel some serious pressure to have kids (no pressure from family, etc.), just a lot of internal thoughts about kids. Anytime I thought about it, I would feel very heavy inside (it was a really weird feeling). So eventually (it took about 3 months), I said let's see what happens :-). Best decision ever. I absolutely love having my son around, I honestly don't think I've ever met a person quite as dynamic as him. Something similar happened with my daughter, but not as much internal pressure (maybe I recognized the promptings a little better?). We'll see what happens with future kids. Financially at times it's been tough as we've make significant lifestyle choices to hopefully provide better in the future (try a 2 bdr 800 sqft duplex with an all-boy 2 year-old and a newborn-thank goodness that is over with!), but it was well worth it. I also think there is a very good reason why pregnancies are 9 months; it really gives you a good amount of time to prepare--especially for new parents. Quick suggestion, if you're going to the temple soon, suggest a temple date to go an pray about it.