yjacket

Wow. No the convention system is still alive. Getting off topic a bit, the R candidate for governor of VA this election cycle was chosen at the R State Convention this past year. Several states political parties choose who they will run for Senate and Congress at political Congressional District and State Conventions. And the Presidential candidate is chosen by the National Convention, not by popular vote. If enough delegates at the National Convention decided to revolt against the popular vote choice, they could do it. I actually like the convention system and wish it would come back into prominence . . . but that won't be happening anytime soon.

Every State still does them, they are just not advertised. That's really cool the 1st Pres. sends out letters encouraging people to attend in Utah. I don't believe we've ever gotten one of those on the East Coast.

I think there is more to this than meets the eye. A little background, when the Church was first formed political and religious conventions were extremely common. The Revolution was started at political conventions. In fact, up until prob. about the 1970s attending mass meetings and state conventions to elect delegates for the US Presidency was very common. I read an LDS General Conference talk by I believe Pres. Kimball published in the 70s who advocated that members attend their local mass meeting (it was national election time) to elect delegates. Voting in this country used to very personal and done mostly through delegates elected at conventions. Now from what I've read in history the Church was formed in this political environment and in the US where nobody liked to be told what to do. When JS died, the church held a religious convention and at that convention the body (or majority) of the saints "sustained" or elected Brigham Young to lead the church. I believe the sustaining that we do in Church today came from that environment. It has morphed into little more a perfunctory act and rubber-stamping at this point, however I believe that if the body (or majority) of the saints in a particular ward decided they did not want a Bishop, or in a stake the Stake President or church-wide even a Prophet to lead them they would simply have to "vote-down" when the sustaining happened. It is my belief that the members have more power over this than they particularly realize.

My sincere condolences. Last night I had the most horrible dream. I have three kids and in this dream I saw my oldest get struck by a car. It was quite graphic and an extremely disturbing dream and I pretty much woke up immediately. Thankfully it was only a dream, yet the entire day I have thought about how I would survive if it actually happened. The thing that kept going through my head today was the Atonement of Jesus Christ. It would be the only thing that would help me. My life would be hell and I'm not quite sure I would survive but if I were to somehow miraculous survive it would be through His sacrifice. His selfless gift of sacrificing Himself so that all might live again, so that I would have the chance to see my kid again. That would be it. It would be the only way I wouldn't become a miserable wretch, because I would need to live my life the best I could so that I could see my child again. So that Christ's Atonement would wash away my sins so I could see my kid again and that His Atonement would allow my child to be resurrected and live again. I'm very glad for the Atonement in my life, without it all would truly be lost . . .

This is obviously an extremely difficult trial that you are going through. I once read something that when someone is dying there is no right or wrong way to feel; it just is. No one has died twice, so the first time is the only time and no one knows how they will act or feel until it happens. So it's okay to feel whatever it is you need to feel. That said if I may offer some words. It is my belief that Christ's Atonement was the only true selfless and great sacrifice ever made. Nothing can compare to it, not acts of kindness or duty that others might give such as HT/VT, not phone calls from loved ones, not visits from Bishops. His Atonement covers so much more than just a remission of our sins. He descended below all things so that He might know how to succor us, because no one knows exactly what you are going through or feeling except Him. He and He only knows the trial you are going through. Suffering, pain, war death happen in this life, because it just is. Humans are human and sometimes we do stupid things, sometimes accidents happen and eventually our bodies break down. Nobody gets out of here alive. Nobody gets out of here without having to deal with some sort of Hell in their life; whether it is self-inflicted or not. Yet the Atonement takes away the sting. The Atonement gives us faith and hope that no matter the trails, no matter the struggles some good will come of it and in the end it will all be OK. And going through the trail sucks, and its hard, harder than we can bare but He makes it up. Finally, be the change you wish to see in the world. If you wish people were more charitable to you be more charitable to others. If we become the change we wish to see, then the change also happens to us. Call it karma, call it fate, whatever you want, but it happens. I always find in my life that when I'm feeling unloved or wish someone would help me out that if I try no matter how small to help someone else out that my life is changed. May God's Love envelope you in Peace.

Oh I totally agree; however Quin claiming that claiming that Hilter killed in the name of God because he waged a war against Jews is a little too much. Just because a war is waged against a specific religion does not make it a war of killing in the name of God. In fact it would make sense that an atheist leader would have more of an ax to grind against a specific religious viewpoint rather than against people in general. There is debate as to what Hilter was wiki: "The adult Hitler did not believe in the Judeo-Christian notion of God, though various scholars consider his final religious position may have been a form of deism. Others consider him "atheist". The question of atheism is debated, however reputable Hitler biographers Ian Kershaw, Joachim Fest and Alan Bullock agree Hitler was anti-Christian." More points about Hitler: "Kershaw wrote that few people could really claim to "know" Hitler - "he was by temperament a very private, even secretive individual", unwilling to confide in others.[4] In Hitler's Table Talk Hitler often voiced stridently negative views of Christianity. Bullock wrote that Hitler was a rationalist and materialist, who saw Christianity as a religion "fit for slaves", and against the natural law of selection and survival of the fittest.[5] Richard J. Evans wrote that Hitler used a Nazi variant of the language of Social Darwinism to persuade his followers that what they were doing was justified by "history, science and nature" From my study of Hitler, he very much embraced the theory of evolution. That was why the Aryan race was so important, it was the (in his mind) the greatest race and therefore destined to conquer and win out in the evolution of mankind. It was the survival of the fittest and nature had selected them for it.

I am showing you by evidence through the dictionary what faith and belief are and yet you refuse to believe it. Here the definition of faith below: Faith Definition: faith fāTH/Submit noun 1.complete trust or confidence in someone or something. "this restores one's faith in politicians" synonyms: trust, belief, confidence, conviction; More antonyms: mistrust 2.strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof. synonyms: religion, church, sect, denomination, (religious) persuasion, (religious) belief, ideology, creed, teaching, doctrine More Your faith is based off of extreme hubris; trust in yourself, trust in leaders, trust in scientist. And I have shown evidence of what belief is through the dictionary. You claim you don't have faith yet it is impossible to live without having faith in something, whether that faith is in man, in God in your own strength it doesn't matter. You are trying to deny being human. The fact that you even try to compare human beings with the full range of society we have, creations we've made, things we feel, the way we communicate to chimps demonstrates that you want to deny the essential characteristics that make us human. Lol, about as closely related as a horse is to a car; please stop using logical fallicies to justify your position. And you who claim to live your life based upon "evidence" has evidence for this? Show me. Come on man prove it. . .you've got no evidence for this. Which is my point exactly, you claim to live your life by evidence but you can't prove it no more than I can prove to you that there is a God. I'm really done with this line of thinking. However, I'd like to know what your real agenda is here? One doesn't go from being a member and 8 days ago to finding out "just today" that JS had multiple wives and being shocked about it to being an ardent atheist. In 8 days they read 2-3 books on JS his multiple wives becomes and becomes an expert on atheism . . . okay whatever . . . I find it really ironic that a person who claims they live a "moral" life and lives by the golden rule comes to a message board under false pretenses.

I believe you are self-deluding yourself. You claim it is an evidence based belief system, yet it is a logical fallacy. You use of the word belief demonstrates as such: Definition: be·lief noun \bə-ˈlēf\ : a feeling of being sure that someone or something exists or that something is true : a feeling that something is good, right, or valuable : a feeling of trust in the worth or ability of someone Your belief system is based on the trust of other human beings and in the superiority of the flesh. I can make just as much a claim to the belief in a God as an evidence based system as you can. You personally have not verified every single bit of so-called "evidence" in science and until you do you have to rely on the trust of other human beings who are as fallible as you are. Your faith is in text-books that other fallible human beings have written. Your "evidence" is in equations, my "evidence" is seeing the hand of God in my life. One can argue back and forth about whether that is valid evidence, but the fact remains that one chooses a belief system and that one must have faith in something. Without it one cannot conscienciously act, one would be as chimps without faith and without the ability to plan long-term. I'm not even sure how to respond to this . . . that's like trying to compare riding a horse to a cadillac. Sure they both get you from point A to point B, they are both transportation but that's about where it ends. ??? humans society ~= animal society . . . .okay got it. I think now you are just trying to argue just to argue. Over the long run it does but not always within the lifespan of one person. For example, I have terminal brain cancer I'm going to die within 1 month. If I have no belief in the hereafter, why would I not want to go to rob a bank, steal as much money as I can and have as much fun as possible? And how did the golden rule come about? By a belief in God!

Oh there is no doubt that many have killed in the name of religion; however the biggest mass murderers in history certainly didn't subscribe to the belief in a supreme being. Stalin, Hitler, Mao, etc. in fact a significant portion of their belief system can be tied back to the "survival of the fittest" and evolution. Like I've said, it can certainly work for individuals to be great people and be atheist, I have several friends who claim to be atheist and they are extremely good people. The nature of humans being what they are it simply cannot work for large societies as a whole for long periods of time.

I see you are completely glossing over the fact that Stalin murdered 20-60 million. I guess it worked out pretty well for those people . . .

Full Definition of RELIGION 1a : the state of a religious <a nun in her 20th year of religion> b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance 2: a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices 3 archaic : scrupulous conformity : conscientiousness 4: a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith Being atheist is a cause, principle or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith. Faith in no God. So according to #4 atheism can easily be classified as a religion. you are comparing the human race, which has developed speech, computers, traveled to the moon, etc. with chimpanzees. . . . I believe your argument is one of those logical fallacies, but okay whatever floats your boat. And chimps do a lot of things that are deplorable, infanticide?? No one knows that chimps evolved into humans. No one saw it happen, there is evidence of various skeletons that look different compared to modern day humans. So someone developed a theory that humans evolved from chimps. You believe this theory. Why do you believe this theory? It is not proven, in fact it can not be proven. If that isn't faith or religion then I'm not sure what is. No, I can't. Do you have any examples of ancient societies that did not believe in some type of God(s) and have sustained themselves over large periods of time? All of the great civilizations in the history of the world had some basis of belief and faith in (one or more) supreme beings. A society full of atheists cannot logically survive. The reason it cannot survive is because humans beings all inherently act in their own best interest, and that will eventually devolve into might makes right. Atheism devolves into hubris. Anyone who claims they believe in science but doesn't have a belief system, but doesn't have faith is self-deluding. That is why I say you as an individual can absolutely be atheists and be moral; it cannot work for civilizations over long periods of time. That type of behavior will eventually devolve (not evolve) into societies resembling chimpanzees.

Sure you can; however being atheist doesn't provide a sustainable path for humanity. If everyone were atheist then the question of what is moral is irrelevant. You can be a "moral" atheist because the culture you live has a moral background. The moral background came from religion. If everyone were atheist you can't teach your kids to be "moral". Moral definition: 1. Of or concerned with the judgment of the goodness or badness of human action and character: moral scrutiny; a moral quandary. 2. Teaching or exhibiting goodness or correctness of character and behavior: a moral lesson. 3. Conforming to standards of what is right or just in behavior; virtuous: a moral life. 4. Arising from conscience or the sense of right and wrong: a moral obligation. 5. Having psychological rather than physical or tangible effects: a moral victory; moral support. 6. Based on strong likelihood or firm conviction, rather than on the actual evidence: a moral certainty. Without religion, who is to say what is good or what is bad. In fact #6. is the anti-thesis of atheism. And that is the point, whether one admits it or not atheism is a religion.

You are conflating math with theory. Math does not explain why we are here. No one has been alive during the past several million years and therefore no one really knows what happened. Evolution, just as much as math doesn't explain consciousness. Math cannot be used to predict every detail of life. It is unknowable. Math can be used to model things, but it is just that a model. Just like a model airplane isn't a real airplane a model of the universe isn't the universe. It is an attempt to explain the unknowable. Evolution is just one attempt at understanding how we came to be here, but the theory of evolution doesn't disprove God.

I guarantee you He has, you've just got to see it. For ages individuals (prophets) have told us where and how. Let him that has ears hear. I believe a lot of what you are going through is a product of our modern society. Life for us compared to 100 years ago is extremely easy, especially here in the US. We don't have to worry about starvation and even our worst recessions are 10x better than most of the world. And yet if one tracked the belief in God those in worse situations have a greater belief than those in better situations. The old saying goes there are no "aethists in foxholes" In general terms, those who live in dire circumstances don't question why do bad things happen to me, why is there suffering in life. They accept it as a part of life and God gives meaning and purpose to it all. What is the purpose of living if it means nothing? A faith in God, provides all human beings with Hope, without which we would be lost. Hope in a better tomorrow, hope that my mistakes and sins will be washed away, hope that there is a higher power who loves me who created me. The older I get, the more I see the twists, turns, and frailties of life as opportunities for me to grow, to become a better individual. The times I've most grown is when I've gone through Hell. And in those times there has been only One individual who has lived on this earth who knows what my Hell is like; Jesus. You don't understand the atonement. Our goal is to become like our Father, to inherit his kingdom. But He can't "make" or "force" us to be good. He provides the rules of how we should behave and act to be like him. Yet He knows that it's a process. We can't just wake up one day and say "ah I'm now a rocket scientist". We have to study, and we get problems wrong. It is when we answer problems incorrectly that we learn the most. The Atonement allows us to answer the problems of live incorrectly! It allows us to fail, make corrections and then to get it right. God is God because he obeys certain universal truths and laws. Even God can't change those laws, they just are; and if we ever want to be like Him then we have to learn how to obey them too. Actually it depends. When children are small you do and I'm positive God did so before we lived here we were "small". When your child is no longer small you don't tell them exactly what to do, you provide them with the framework and then allow them to make their own choices. If you saw God in this life and then directly disobeyed Him, you would be under much greater condemnation. Think of it this way, your parents teach you not to fight with your siblings. If your Mom says hey don't hit your sister and you do it while she is looking, you are in hot water. Now if your Mom has taught you not to hit and then you are outside playing and you hit your sister, you'll still get punished but not quite as severly as if she was looking right at you. In one case, it is a complete act of defiance, in the other case it is an act of not obeying.

The magic is the "magic" of inflation. And it's not so much the amount but the ratio. United States Government Debt To GDP | Actual Data | Forecasts To put it in perspective, if we had the debt/gdp ratio of the 1940s the debt would be 20T right now. At some point, economies have too much debt relative to what they produce and the debt starts to choke off their productivity. At what point that starts to happen is anyone's guess. There are only three ways out of the problem. 1a) Pay it back through increase in productivity 1b) Pay it back with increase in taxes 2) inflate out of it (soft default), or 3) hard default. The so called "austerity" programs are really #1b, which is like getting blood from a turnip. 1 & 3 are politically not viable so 2 is what will happen . . . .although IMO it's the worst choice. Of course things get a little worse when you actually realize that our entire economic system is built on nothing but debt. If the US eliminated all debt, then all the dollar bills in existence would go up in a puff of smoke. It's a retched system of slavery for the masses and expropriation for the uber-wealthy, the politically connected, the financially wealth connected. It's a system that actively promotes financial bubbles and corruption. If The Traveler thinks corruption is bad at the political level, then wait until he discovers the corruption of the monetary system, 100x worse. For a quick and dirty see:The Federal Reserve Can Only Fail | Peak Prosperity And I highly recommend the Crash Course The Crash Course | Peak Prosperity Very simple quick videos on some big problems

That's just a little bit of a stretch there. From wiki (hey it's the internets :-)) (generally age 11 years or younger, though specific diagnostic criteria for the disorder extends the cut-off point for prepubescence to age 13) I haven't seen anything that indicates any wives under the age 14 . . .

Looks like you might be at the beginning stages of SFS. 2013 Shaken Faith Syndrome, Part Deux « FAIR I second Rolling Stone. One of the things we in the modern culture have a very hard time doing is to see things from the perspective of those who lived in a different time. Just like to modern culture slavery is and was horrible institution. Yet go back 300 years and while there were people who didn't like it, there were people who believed slavery as an institution that was ordained by God. In the early days of the restoration, there was a period of time where a huge chunk of members fell away, in fact if IIRC without the massive wave of new converts coming in the church would have been in a world of hurt. Members claimed that Joseph was a "fallen" prophet. Understanding the time period, the situation, the context gives meaning to yes I can see how some early members would have issues. In fact, his death to a large extent was facilitated by former members. Ultimately, however (and those who didn't fall away relied on this) the bedrock of testimony is in Jesus Christ and our personal relationship with him. If we have that then we can claim being Christian. If we have a witness that JS saw God and Jesus, translated the BoM by the power of God and established His church and that we have a prophet today, then we can claim we are Mormons in addition to being Christian. The first item is the most important and too many people believe b/c Christ was perfect it means His prophets and His church is perfect. Neither are or will be. Prophets make mistakes and need the Atonement just as much as we do and just as much as the Church does too. Everything else is secondary to the 1st item. Prophets and the church exists to bring people unto Christ and ultimately to eternal life. Church on Sunday isn't a history lesson, it's about teaching each other how we can bring our lives in accordance with His will.

My 2 cents. The spirit can and does speak both to our spirit and to our mind, so don't discount your mind as not being from God. I would suggest that if you are having enough questions about marriage that you feel compelled to ask an anonymous internet message board about the choice to marry someone then that in and of itself means you are not ready. It doesn't mean that you won't be ready or that you won't marry this person, it just means that as of right now you are not ready to get married, or to make the decision to get married. I would also suggest that it is your responsibility to own this issue. I second The Traveler's comments, very good stuff. Part of life is learning how to take responsibility for our actions and to own the consequences whatever they may be (good or bad). Part of taking responsibility is learning how to take the principles that we've been taught and to apply them in our lives and to make decisions based upon those learned principles. It's saying to Heavenly Father, I've thought long and hard about this, I plan on making this decision because of xyz reasons. If this is right, or good, please confirm. If it's not right please give me a "stupor of thought". Sometimes we don't get anything immediately, that just means proceed the best way we know how. Or if we don't know, say Heavenly Father provide me the path so that I can make a decision. Once we've made our decision, we own it-no one made us choose it and if things turn out poorly we have to have enough faith that no matter what we happens to say that we did the best we could and made the best decision we could at the time and that through the Atonement of Jesus Christ it will all work out in the end. I would also suggest that you reflect on your thoughts of divorce. 53% of all marriages in the US end in divorce. And everyone thinks before they get married, well it will never happen to me. 53% of people who think that are wrong. Marriage and family are the greatest blessing on earth, but it is also the hardest most difficult thing on earth. Taking two people with completely different backgrounds and putting them in one unit . . . it's hard, real hard. If prior to going into a marriage, one does not have the mindset that one will do everything possible to fight to the utmost farthing for one's marriage, then it will quite possibly fail. If one goes into a marriage thinking that the other person will magically "fix" them, that is a recipe for disaster. The only person who can fix you . . . is you. What marriage will do is provide ample opportunities for one to fix themselves. Without marriage those opportunties to fix oneself would never arise and we would be left incomplete. With marriage, the other party doesn't fix us, we fix ourselves, we own our problems and we resolve them, in marriage one shouldn't throw one's problems on the other person and say here fix me. How the Spirit speaks to our mind: Peace of Conscience and Peace of Mind - general-conference

No, I'm not suggesting he duped them, I'm suggesting the messaging is wrong and that an article that makes one or two quotes without context is trying to sell a particular message. I've been a part of a couple of news articles before and the difference between what actually happened and what was reported was a mile wide. I'm suggesting he used them. The TP wing is between a rock and a hard place, about 24-30 members revolted (I don't have the numbers on hand) against Boehner in January. Most of those are fairly principled members, when one is principled the amount of tactics that can be used against are enormous. I'll be interested to see how those members actually vote on the bill. I don't believe if he had allowed the senate bill at first that he would have been ousted. So much of politics is the art of lies. There is a very big internal Republican push to purge tea party and libertarian republicans. I'm a member of several Congressional and State GOP internal facebook pages, the word is out to "drop" any non-true GOP. It would be naive to believe it doesn't exist at the National level.

I would respectfully disagree on the motives; I've been involved in politics at the local level for a couple of years. I can't begin to describe the level of Machiavellian tactics I have personally witnessed. There are very few politicians who are not machiavellian. To think that the higher people go the less machiavellian they are is IMO foolhardy. Nothing happens by accident in politics. There are maybe 30 so-called "tea-party" republicans in Congress. There is no way those 30 could gum up the works so bad as to shut-down the government. However the Republican Party is having a massive "war" within itself. A coalition of tea-party and libertarian republican are bucking the business as usual establishment Republican Party and it is growing by leaps and bounds. This coalition threatens the establishment structure. What better way to cut them off at the knees than casting the blame on a government shutdown on them. The establishment looks good to the tea-party because they "stood up" for the tea-party, yet the tea-party gets slammed b/c they "blocked government" and the "compromise" accomplishes nothing as it changes little. All about power.

Boehner has been playing this end game all along. The House had the votes to pass a CR weeks ago. He did this IMO to specifically to try and force the most conservative members of Congress to either give up their principles and pass a bill or spend 3 weeks in purgatory getting hammered by the news media. Boehner and the rest of the DC establishment are the problem and are no friends of liberty. It's all about power and money and the past 3 weeks have been a power play by the DC elite squeezing the tea party. . . . Oh well, one day the economic system will blow up, it will happen it's just a matter of when.

Yeap, that is the real question. The shutdown, sequester, debt limit ect. will have real impacts, but if the only question is why did the government shut down xyz because without xyz we can't do blah, then we are asking the wrong question. The right question is why in the world are the Feds involved in xyz. According to THE CHART: Public Sector Vs. Private Sector Employment - Business Insider there are 22 million public sector jobs vs. ~110 million private sector, or about 20% of the workforce is public jobs. This doesn't include all the jobs that are provided by government money, which in my experience is at least 3-1. Say it's 2-1 at a conservative estimate, you're looking at ~65 million jobs tied to public money vs. ~ 65 million pure private jobs. So conservatively it's 50/50, it's probably more likely 70/30 public to private jobs. When that many jobs are tied to government money, you will get absolutely stupid rules and regulations as individuals create them to justify their jobs. It is a sad situation and it won't be solved anytime soon, at least not until the entire monetary system goes boom. Without our current monetary system this type of largess wouldn't even be remotely possible. But oh well . . . .it is what it is. Another thing that is frustrating is all the talk of default on the debt; it is only default if the interest on the debt doesn't get paid. As long as the interest gets paid there is no default. The government takes in enough revenue to pay the interest on the debt and pay basic services like SS, etc. the misinformation is astounding . . .

It's a well established practice: Washington Monument Syndrome or fireman first principle. Washington Monument Syndrome - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. Basically the fed. gov. agencies blackmail or extort the public for more money. Sure they could make it work relatively painlessly, but if they did that then the public would see that 50% of the jobs are worthless and they'd be out of a job. Fed. gov. agencies don't operate like a business, they are rewarded for spending more money and being completely inefficient rather than saving money and being more efficient. Every year at the end of the fiscal year there was a big scramble, if the office didn't spend all it's money it would be sure to get a budget cut the next year so instead of operating prudently and being more productive they would go on a spending spree. What do we possibly need that costs a lot of money, that's how one office ended up with a $10,000+ touch table and another with a 3D virtual reality setup, neither of which were ever used afterwards or were necessary for the job.

I'm pretty sure that regardless of the length of the shutdown SS and pensions will be paid because they are part of "mandatory", non-discretionary spending. The shutdown only affect discretionary spending, but I could be wrong.

I used to be a federale. I find the whole charade hilarious and at this point utterly pointless. I was a fan of the shutdown but today Congress passed a resolution giving all federal employees furloughed back-pay. So at this point the whole shutdown is merely a one week plus of free tax-payer funded vacation time. Now I worked with some very, very good people, but (and I'm not speaking of anyone in particular-but from my personal experience) they were some of the most entitled individuals I've ever met in my life. They had/have very little clue about what is going on outside their bubble world. They have some of the best paying jobs in the country, with the best benefits and a guaranteed job; even if they get "furloughed" they get back-pay, that's not being furloughed that's a free vacation. The amount of time wasted at the "water-cooler" or just shooting the breeze is ridiculous. I've seen guys sleep on the job. I knew I could sit at my desk all day and throw darts at the wall and not get fired. The only things that will generally get one fired is Time and Attendance Fraud (i.e. not showing up to work and charging time), committing a felony and looking at porn at work. And except in the case of a felony, it was a long drawn out process where the employee got several "chances" to set it right. I read news articles in the Washington Post/Times and just chuckle; so many federal employees trying to justify their job, "I want to work", "I could have a better paying job in the private sector", "Without xyz bad things will happen". There are definitely real inconviences for a lot of people due to the shutdown; but there have been a lot of real inconviences for millions of people since the '08 recession. For those current federal employees count your lucky stars you had a job through the recession and still have one. Unfortunately, we have some serious structural economical problems in the US and no one wants their part of the pie cut.