Sunday21

I am still thinking that you are joking. Hmm. Next time I attend a conference I will have to lure a young American into a back corner and ask. Maybe I live in a bubble: my occupational group, socioeconomic group, age range is influencing either my perceptions. Or maybe your bubble is affecting your perceptions. Further study required! Anyway, if this is a windup, good for you! It is really funny: social attitudes. An American professor and I were discussing some boring detail of employment law that affected absenteeism. She and I were internet friends and have worked remotely for about five years. I know that she is a democrat. The discussion lead to entitlements at work including leaves that employees could take. We were eating in a plush restaurant with many other similarly boring people also discussing really boring stuff. i mentioned that in Canada full time employees are entitled to leave after the birth of a child. I went through benefits for women, 35 weeks longer in some instances...i drone on. Suddenly American friend began to change colour. She made a choking sound and using only her legs began to rise from her chair. She blurted out ‘35 weeks!’. She was so loud that our part of the restaurant fell silent. It only lasted a minute but I was frightened. An American woman sitting next to her, gave me reassuring glance and changed the subject. I am so glad that I did not mention 35 weeks paternity leave. I might have killed her!

Are you really not just pulling my leg? You really feel this way? Seriously. Is this a windup? @prisonchaplain All kidding aside. Serious question. Do these people really feel this way? Is this common?

I find this attitude odd. To me allowing public derision or belittling of a specific demographic group is abhorrent. I actually find this attitude to be just amazing like the time an lds American sent me a picture of what appeared to be a machine gun. He was very happy about his new purchase. Other than wanting to own a machine gun he was a pretty lovely fellow. Loved his wife and family. I guess this is why one belongs to message boards like this one. One learns such interesting things! But there we have it. I suspect this is a cultural difference. I suppose that it is not unusual to find the behaviors and attitudes of others to be puzzling. I wonder how Australians feel about this. I have occasionally been shocked in watching UK tv when they make fun of the welsh or the scots. I was also watching an Australian show where they used a nickname to refer to Lebanonise people to describe takeout food. I found this offensive. @askandanswer is it okay socially or legally to denigrate specific groups in Oz? Do you have prohibited grounds? Well muchos interesting! Normally here educated people have a rule of not criticizing those in prohibited grounds situations. I think though that my attitude is not unknown in the US. I had an absolutely hysterical conversation with a English woman in her late 60s-70s. This English lady was spitting blood. As part of a charity organization’s work, she flew to Boston. The American administrator gave her information over the phone because the older English lady was not comfortable with email. The American administrator described the greeter who would meet the English lady at the airport to drive the English lady downtown. The greeter was also a volunteer. The English lady had difficulty finding the greeter and thus things did not go smoothly. Later the English lady discovered that the greeter was black. This information she had not been told. The English woman rounded on me in fury when she reached the Canadian leg of her journey and demanded to know why she had been told the greeters approximate age, profession, gender but not her race which in the English woman’s opinion, this information would have been the most useful. I tried to explain the difficult situation that the American administrator may have been in. The organization was run by retired experts from various fields. I have to deal with retired experts in my job and they can be a real pain and seriously touchy. So I can see why the administrator behaved as she did. I can also completely understand the point of view of the tired elderly English woman worn out by travel and dying for a cup of tea. In fact to me this story, the rage of the irate English woman and the conscientious American woman are so funny that I can barely type. Of course, you may also be pulling my leg in a major way! Where is my foil hat? Its’s a conspiracy. I will ask prison Chaplin as soon as I can think of a tactful way to ask the question. After all I don’t want to offend anyone! 😂

Dear @Vort Seriously dude?

@Vort @Just_A_Guy Why do I object to the ad which depicts a black man with a suitcase entering Canada? The Human Rights Act prohibits discrimination on a number of grounds, referred to as ‘prohibited grounds’. These grounds include: sex, race, country of origin, disability, sexual orientation, etc. This list is interpreted as including recent immigrants. So it is illegal to ignore non-Canadian work experience although to do so is common. The ad appears to be seeking those who wish to discriminate based on race or recent immigration status. Thus to me this ad is very offensive. My dean who is American previously discriminated based on gender. I very firmly told him that this was unacceptable in terms of the Human Rights Act. He was shocked at my vehemence although he has taught the Human Rights Act. I guess those from other cultures do not get the extent to which these values are internalized. California has similar laws by the way. So if you wish to discuss immigration here, you would need to explain why immigration is bad. There are a percentage who will be lazy. Well, what might identify these people? If you could hazard a guess: those with liberal arts degrees? Okay exclude those. Avid gamers? Okay exclude those. Urban dwellers? Those with relatives in Canada? Those who left home and travelled through Italy? Tatooes? Piercings? Dirty fingernails? If you can identify a category that is not a pronibited ground, then fine you can discriminate. You could not legally say that black people are bad, if you did so repeatedly, publicly , and after having several firm talking-to’s, then we would fine you. If you serve customers in the government, you would be reassigned.

But we do have the freedom to discuss. However, you cannot over a very long period of time say nasty things about a particular group. If you feel that immigration is wrong or dangerous, you are welcome to say so. If you feel that a subset will be lazy, you are welcome to say so. You can’t denigrate a particular group eg Jamaicans. But you are welcome to explain that you feel chefs are not in demand so no allowing more chefs into the country please. You are free to critique fat people or ugly people or mouth breathers or nose pickers or those with tattoos. So you feel that some immigrants will be on welfare, right? So why not have a point system that selects for age and education. Are you suggesting that educated and young immigrants with relatives in the country who speak either French or English will be lazy? Education either selects for or cultivates different behaviors. Those with a university education are: less likely to divorce, more likely to follow doctor’s orders, have fewer children, save for retirement, less likely to smoke, more likely to go to the dentist and spend more time with their children and have fewer children.

Two gems!

My niece has a new job. She is in her early 20s and a social worker. She watches adult entertainment videos which feature children. She works with the RCMP and Interpol to track down the perps. i looked at her timidly and asked her if she finds her work stressful. She smiled. She did not pat me on the head but she made a head patting gesture.

Your point: How can someone create an "okay" anti-immigration ad? Or is an anti-immigration attitude considered racist prima facie? My answer. I do not know because I live in a big country with very few people. Global Warming is good to us. The country is opening up and land formerly worth very little is now very valuable. I have lived in provinces where we are desperate for more people. The history of my country is ‘please move here. We are nice people. We will make it easy.’ I cannot create such an ad because I spend a fair amount of my life trying to persuade peole to come here and being nice to the recently arrived. I have tried hard to persuade people to move to my country, my province, my city, and my university. I am regularly recruited for this purpose. And if you think my country is desperate for more people you should see my ward! My ward, and most wards that I have visited as part of Stake callings, would do almost anything for new members. Your point: If the latter, how does Canada have anything like "freedom of speech"? My answer: Freedom of expression not free speech. This is like living in a community in which you agree to abide by certain rules. However if I were to create my own society, I would come up with the same set of rules because I like these rules.

So bear in mind that I come from another culture in terms of news media so you may be referring to common lines of thought in your news media with which I am unfamiliar. Point by point: Are there any moral consideration abut (white) first-world outsourcing these alleged burdens of declining population to (brown) third-world countries that would find depopulation even more economically devastating— I am not sure that I am following. Your point is this? You feel that we are depopulating the educated class of the third world and thus exploiting the educational systems of the third world for our own benefit? My answer. Sending money home is a great tradition for immigrants. The polish economy in the 80’s was kept afloat by remittances sent home. I know this because I wrote an essay on the topic. The economy of the Philippines is greatly enhanced by remittances sent home. Having worked in Canada many retire to their country of origin with Canadian pensions. Your point: particularly when the first world has created its own population crisis through selfish family choices? Isn’t that sort of immigration policy just another form of racist oppression? My answer. Well we need them. They want to come. I am happy. Your point: And if the Canadian economy is suffering so much from depopulation, then why are people willing to spend thousands of dollars to come halfway around the world to settle there rather than in Europe or any one of dozens of non-war-torn nations in Africa or Asia? My answer: We try to make it easy to come here. We give students 3 years after graduation to find a job. The UK gives 3- 6 months? Something like that. We try hard to be nice. If we see someone in the garb of another country, we open doors. We smile. There are some colourful immigrants in native dress in my area. We smile and wave. At my university, we email students individually and tell them that they are welcome. Our student services who give each of my students a Mock Interview specifically outlines the immigration rules. Your point: Also, I note you didn’t engage with the rest of my original question. Will any people do for your economy/society, regardless of the relative function or dysfunction of the cultures from whence they are drawn? My answer: We have, as discussed above, various points systems. If you want to work in a factory in Manitoba there is a point system. Otherwise, we favour education, english and French language skills. You cannot retire here. If you do not come under a point system, temporary foreign worker, or refugees, then you need a job. Getting married to a Canadian is helpful but the process is long and we check you out thoroughly. 2. Your point: Sounds like the assertion here boils down to “We made this law, but we won’t enforce it. Honest!” My answer. We have a lot of ‘no bicycling on the sidewalk laws’. We do not enforce unless we are very annoyed and in the history of the country we have never been that annoyed. Your point: Honest! My answer: Being upfront, authentic and direct is not a Canadian value. We have a lot of practice in telling you things indirectly. We begin with very very very indirect and gradually circle round carefully watching your reaction as we become gradually more direct. We then pat you all over to make sure that we did not hurt you too much. However, I very gently told a student today that he needs to floss and brush his teeth as he is going for interviews this term. Your point: Winston was a free man, as soon as he declared he loved Big Brother. The existence of Room 101 didn’t matter; because people who played nice didn’t have to worry about going there. My answer: 1984? You know Orwell was a dedicated Social Democrat right? He would fit in well here. Your point: As @Vort says, it sounds like your position is that anyone who has concerns about the Canadian immigration status quo is per se racist. My answer: Well we need more people. We don’t have enough homemade ones. It is a lot cheaper to have someone else birth them, feed them and educate them. We get to pick the skills that we want. The immigrants seem pretty happy. White people are a minority where I work and we are all very happy. Things seems to be working out pretty well. Your point: Given your statements, the only alternative interpretation I can think of would be the absurdity that a pro-immigration-reform poster must contain *only* illustrations of US/European immigrants who represent (if the numbers you cite are accurate) fewer than 10% of the people who are actually immigrating to Canada. My answer: No we don’t get many Europeans relative to Asians. Canada does not have the vibrant culture of a European country. As a people we are pretty dull.

We have freedom of expression up to certain limits. It is a bit like living in a condo with rules about no parties after 10 pm. Keegstra was a teacher in Alberta. He taught antisemitism in a class. His students were required to parrot back his beliefs for grades. Three trips to the Supreme Court in the 90s. His teaching certificate was removed and he was fined $5000. No jail time. Our immigration system is a point system. You get more points for being in a certain age range. There are 3 separate programs and they all work on points with more points for being in a certain age range, not too old or too young, education, speaking either French or English, work experience and connections to Canada, friends and relatives. In addition, individual provinces can develop their point system. If you are thinking of a factory job in Manitoba, there is a system that gives more points for NOT having friends and family outside of Manitoba and for not having a university degree. The other point systems also function in Manitoba. In addition we have a temporary foreign worker program which is intended for things like agriculture. We also have a refugee program. I live in a country in which provinces are quite desperate for people. We can’t keep the factories and businesses in many locations open. Why would we want to restrict immigration? My pharmacist is Syrian. My doctor is a Muslim from Dearborn MI. My doctor reports that we keep thinking of little incentives to get him to move here permanently. If he and his spouse have another child and he aggrees to move here, we will pay him to stay home and nurture the child for 35 weeks.

1) Empty country. Businesses fail. No customers. Not enough jobs for young people. Parents sad because their twenty year olds move away. The sad history of Newfoundland. Small production runs so expensive goods. 2) There is a provision under which you could be jailed for hate speech. I have tried googling but did not find an example. If you have heard of one, I will look it up. I think several decades ago, someone was sent to jail but I cannot find this example. We tend not to send people to jail even if a provision is on the books. The company is responsible for the actions of employees as employees are agents of the company. The company is pressured to change the behavior. Here is an example of Human Rights violation at a company in Kingston On. I think the company name was Shaw. Plump female employee walks by desk of coworker. Coworker says swish, swish, swish in imitation of women’s nylons rubbing together. He refers to woman as a fat pig. Woman complains to manager. Manager tells her to ignore it. Women successfully sues company, manager, and coworker. Person of native descent working in prison system in Ontario. Coworkers refer to him as ‘Chief’. When he tries to arrange a meeting as part of his normal duties, coworkers email him and ask if this will be a powwow. Coworkers make hatchet movements as he walks by. Correctional services division is fined. Everyone is sent on training.Employee is given a settlement. 3) That ad would not be okay if it depicted any other visible minority or recent immigrant

I am advocating empathy which I think will help put the situation in perspective. Volunteer writer needs some experience and needs to put something on their cv. Writes article about women wearing pants at church. Yes the article needs to stir up controversy but... 1) Writing such an article is a ploy. Newspaper headlines often pose a question to which the answer is generally ‘No’. Eg should you always allow your relatives to stay at your home? The answer is ‘No’. The purpose is to: raise eyebrows, get you thinking, have you explore the possibility of an unusual situation. Eg Grandma is a pyromaniac. Don’t let her stay! These ploys are not intended to be taken entirely seriously. The silliest instance that I have encountered recently was an article that asked if you should break up with your significant other if they are rude to their electronic personal assistant eg Alexa. No one would actually believe that anyone would actually break up with someone for this reason. The article seeks to entertain by being a bit silly. In the article it discusses the importance of habitual politeness so that we don’t become accustomed to rudeness. This last is a good point immersed in a solution of silliness. 2) The writer is a volunteer, an amateur. She is learning. Of course the article is a bit amateurish. This is job experience and she is desperately trying to meet a deadline while commuting, going to school, working a number of jobs. Have some compassion 3) It is unlikely that she feels any opinion expressed as strongly as is being interpreted. She is ondeadline and is doing the best that she can. 4) Pitting one group against another is a cheap ploy like using baby pictures or kittens in ads. Don’t allow yourself to be manipulated. Let it go. These types of articles are a bit tongue in check like Phone ads that ask ‘When was the last time you phoned Mom?’ or Hallmark card commercials that tug at the heart strings. They are exaggerated views of reality. It is expected that you are in on the joke. You are not meant to take the controversy entirely seriously.

I will tackle this point by point: 3) Canada needs more people. The country is mainly empty. Manitoba, Nova Scotia, Newfoundland are pretty desperate for people. It is difficult to integrate many refugees quickly but are we just going to leave people to starve and die in Syria? Surely not. In my province, community groups adopt refugees. Awkward but so far seems to working out ok. 2) The Jordan Peterson situation is hard to follow because there is so much written. As far as I understand, he objected to an addition to the Human Rights Code that added gender identity to the code. I think that the university either asked or contemplating asking professors to use the preferred pronoun requested by students eg zhee or something similar. Peterson objected in a series of videos. The university hummed and hawed but sent Peterson a letter letting him know that he was in no danger of being fired. Such fusses are not unusual for university professors. We normally have a couple of drama queens in every department. Famous employes like to throw their weight around. Right now in my department, we have professor who walks into class, asks if there are questions and leaves shortly after. Annoying but such a method is one method of teaching. Threats to throw Peterson in jail? This is a joke, right? 1) Racial make up of current immigrants: 60% Asian, roughly 5%: Caribbean, Africa, Europe https://www.google.ca/search?q=where+do+most+immigrants+come+from+to+canada&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-ca&client=safari#imgrc=9McdkbLRbdU3UM:

I also feel that Trudeau is corrupt! And that smile just makes it worse! I do like Scheer. I feel that his open embrace of his heritage is very helpful...but I fear the expensive promises. Mind you, currently I just can’t stomach voting for the Tories (racist) or Trudeau (slimy & corrupt) so Scheer it may have to be! Voting for the least disgusting party!

The national news source also report the same racist ad but I can’t get access to the weblink. Here is the Huffington link https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2018/07/17/conservatives-yank-attack-ad-that-showed-black-migrant-entering-canada_a_23484161/

Yes they pulled it...but at some point the leadership of the party thought this ad was a good idea. They must have had a series of meetings during which the leadership of the party discussed the merits of various approaches and thought, ‘Hey this is is a good idea! this ad will appeal to a certain group of voters. Let’s attract this group of voters. Let’s pander to racists.’ Those leaders are still running the party.

https://www.vice.com/en_ca/article/vbjdkd/conservatives-pull-racist-attack-ad-featuring-black-man-crossing-into-canada-justin-trudeau

I imagine that MFG is trying to promote the site by having interesting articles. A marketing plan. Sensible to keep numbers up. I doubt they care about pant wearing women.

Banff National park. In a teeny tiny car - early November. Sudden cold snap. The park was deserted. Me and hubby drove to the bison paddock. Drove around. Not a single bison. Typical! Probably removed the bison in the stupid paddock area! Authorities must have left the sign up and sold the bison to some meat packing plant in the States! Sad! Useless park. Useless country. Heat did not work in the car. Cold and miserable, I pulled into a wooded area. We ate our sandwiches while my english hubby listed all the things he hated about Canada, the weather, the politics but most of all Banff and the rotten lack of bison. And then. I heard this low rumbling. The ground began to shake. Suddenly there were bison! How many? Fifty? Most bigger than the tiny car. Some little bison but mainly large, furry, and not very gentle looking! Milling about and just surging through the area. If any of them had begun to move towards the car, I do not know what I would have done. Drove back to hotel in silence. And then there was the time that I attending a conference for a week in the park. There was a shuttle from the hotel to the conference Center. I walked though and skipped the shuttle after all it was a nice walk through the woods mornings and evenings. Last day, I was informed that the shuttle was for the protection of guests due to bears. I had spent a week walking through the most dangerous route at the most dangerous times of day. Why? Because I am an idiot. I have had had warnings about bears and talks about bear safety since I was a toddler. I know personally several people who have lost limbs to bears. When I entered the park, I was warned about bears and given a pamphlet about bears which I read on the last day in fear and trembling. I do not deserve to live!

Why?

Ok I do not know who MFG is. Looked at original article no info on that...but honestly if they DO care, they need to get a life or even better a demanding calling. These people need something to worry about that actually matters. How is that genealogy coming? Any elderly neighbors who need a ride to the doctor? Do something real.

Ok I do not know who MFG is. Looked at original article no info on that...but honestly I’d they DO care, they need to get a life or even better a demanding calling. These people need something to worry about that actually matters. How is that genealogy coming? Any elderly neighbors who need a ride to the doctor? Do something real.

Yep. This is a nonissue. No white shoes after Labor Day. Who cares?

Thank you!!!!