Colirio
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Posts posted by Colirio
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Brasil Brasilia 96-97, Portuguese speaking.
I've retained my language skills very well since I married a half-Brazillian girl, became a graduated instructor of capoeira (Brazillian martial art) in the years since my mission, and have been back a couple of times to meet some in-laws as well as to work on the Porto Alegre temple doing restoration and translation work.
Due to my young, American nature, some of the worst times I have had in my life was the first couple of months in Brazil. The first meal was in a shack made out of trash from the dump next door to it, had a dirt floor, and the spindly chicken in the pan still had the head and feet on it. Starving afterwards, I talked my companion into swinging by the grocery store on the way home. After combing the aisles for 10 minutes, I left with a pack of cookies because it was the only food to be found that didn't require preparing and cooking to be found in the whole store.
I went back to our home and cried when I realized I had two more years to look forward to.
The next day's meal consisted of beans and raw bacon mixed into it. My companion spent the next day throwing up. I had nothing left in my stomach to throw up.
The first Sunday there my companion had to translate what was being said. Apparently, the Bishop was preaching the second coming was going to be in the year 2000. Later the following week, my companion and I showed up for a baptism, only to find no one else there. No ward members, no investigators, nobody but my companion and I. Turns out the same bishop had taken it upon himself to personally interview the prospective new members and decided that he didn't feel they were ready, so, he cancelled their baptism until he decided they were doctrinely prepared. No one bothered to notify the Elders of course...
My journal reflects how much I hated the Brazillian people, the culture, and how I was ready to leave the mission altogether as a result. It took nothing short of the Lord's marvelous power to help my heart begin to change.
Fast forward a couple of months and I found myself on a 30 hour bus transfer to the furthest jungle city in our mission. I was a lone passenger on a bus (no companions accompanied such long transfers) at 2 am in the middle of the jungle on a continent thousands of miles away from my home and family. I didn't speak the language to even be able to talk to the driver and know where we were or how much longer the ride would be. It was the most alone I had ever felt. I started singing the first hymn that came to mind which was "How Great Thou Art." While singing to myself, we passed from under the jungle canopy. I have never since seen stars so bright as they were that night. I knew I was not really alone anymore. I still cry when I think of that night.
Somehow over the course of two years, the Lord turned goofy white bread into something of substance.
The tally at the end of my mission was 65 people I had baptized. The last one was performed by young man I had baptized. There was at least one young man named Wesley who later served a successful mission of his own.
Even though I have lost contact with them over the years, I can tell you without a doubt that my having served a mission saved at least one soul.
Mine.
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There are times to keep the Sabbath holy. There are times to get your ox out of the mire.
There are times to stay away from the usage of strong drugs. There are times to follow your doctor's prescription.
There are times to get advice from internet forums. This is not one of those times.
Seriously, do what the Lord would have YOU to do.
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Anatess, I have agreed with almost everything you have said in your last two posts. Very well worded. I especially appreciate the quote you used from President Hunter as he also alludes to the higher law.
In answer to your question about education, of course we understand what the world teaches of science. Just as we are all on the same page concerning the LDS teachings as you said, we are also on the same page concerning scientific approaches that the world uses. The difference is that I am trying to ELEVATE science to greater understanding. Why cheapen it by not building on established truth?
Scientific experiments are supposed to be conducted without bias.
Exactly.
That is exactly my point.
I am saying that scientists who conduct their experiments on the foundation of God not existing are guilty of bias.
Now, again, I understand what the world teaches. I understand what the great and spacious building would have us to believe.
I am saying that the great and spacious building does NOT own science. God owns the natural laws that scientists set out to discover, not the great and spacious building!
Why must one accept the world's view of what science "should be" in lieu of what we already KNOW to be established truth?
Why must we discount our knowledge of God in order to discover the laws He created?
EDIT:
A great quote from Brigham Young that I just happened upon out of nowhere tonight! Crazy! I thought I would edit my post to include it:
Every art and science known and studied by the children of men is comprised within the Gospel. Where did the knowledge come from which has enabled man to accomplish such great achievements in science and mechanism within the last few years? We know that knowledge is from God, but why do they not acknowledge him? Because they are blind to their own interests, they do not see and understand things as they are. Who taught men to chain the lightning? Did man unaided of himself discover that? No, he received the knowledge from the Supreme Being. From him, too, has every art and science proceeded, although the credit is given to this individual, and that individual. But where did they get the knowledge from, have they it in and of themselves? No, they must acknowledge that, if they cannot make one spear of grass grow, nor one hair white or black [see Matthew 5:36] without artificial aid, they are dependent upon the Supreme Being just the same as the poor and the ignorant. Where have we received the knowledge to construct the labor-saving machinery for which the present age is remarkable? From Heaven. Where have we received our knowledge of astronomy, or the power to make glasses to penetrate the immensity of space? … From [God] has every astronomer, artist and mechanician that ever lived on the earth obtained his knowledge (DBY, 246).
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Anatess, I'm not sure if I have insulted you in some way or not, but, I do apologize if anything I said has been taken that way. It seems that you continue to attempt to insult the level of education of other posters and so I can only assume that you must have felt insulted by one of us.
I apologize if it was anything I said. I'd rather we both be edified by the conversation than attempt to "debate" truth. Debating only tends to imbed each party further into their own perceptions.
If application of the tenets of God would lend consistent results for EVERYBODY then it becomes Science. But, millions of people have discovered for themselves the reality of God - but NOT MANY of them discovers it in a similar process - and, just to prove a point - they can't even agree on who are considered prophets and what they're proposing.
Are you saying that Alma's experiment doesn't work? Have you followed his experiment and have concluded that his findings were false?
If so, I would suggest you read again and be sure you cover the variables he listed there. Because just like 2+2, Alma's experiment works 100% of the time when followed according to his words.
Corilio... only LDS people believe in Alma chapter 5. If you try to use that to oppose Dawkin's God Delusion, you are going to be laughed out of the park... by other Christians.
I thought we were discussing religion on an LDS website and could therefore discuss truth as it pertains to like-minded individuals rather than having to pretend that we don't have an understanding of God's revealed truth.
Like your example of gravity as you claimed, I merely was using one or two examples of how we CAN measure spirituality using imperfect tools just like any other experiment.
You spoke of science being measured. I was demonstrating that spirituality can likewise be measured like any other experiment.
Yes, TRUTH doesn't change. But the question is - are you sure you know what that truth is?
Yes, I am. As the scripture says:
Jacob 4:13 Behold, my brethren, he that prophesieth, let him prophesy to the understanding of men; for the Spirit speaketh the truth and lieth not. Wherefore, it speaketh of things as they really are, and of things as they really will be; wherefore, these things are manifested unto us plainly, for the salvation of our souls. But behold, we are not witnesses alone in these things; for God also spake them unto prophets of old.
I might be able to dispute what my eyes see, my ears hear, what my fingers touch, etc. But I can say without reservation that when the Spirit touches a soul to reveal truth that there is no denying the reality of such an event.
It is only when one has not experienced that feeling that they could possibly debate its reality. I do not type such a statement in order to make anyone feel less or inferior. It is simply the truth.
Again, I would encourage anyone who doubts to try the experiment for themselves.
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Dictionary.com's definition of "science":
1. a branch of knowledge or study dealing with a body of facts or truths systematically arranged and showing the operation of general laws: the mathematical sciences.
2. systematic knowledge of the physical or material world gained through observation and experimentation.
3. any of the branches of natural or physical science.
4. systematized knowledge in general.
5. knowledge, as of facts or principles; knowledge gained by systematic study.
In all of this, Science provides only those truths that can be scientifically applied. It looks for truths in the "How" but doesn't delve beyond that into the things of the "Why".
I don't know that I agree with this statement. Would you consider psychology to be science? What about criminology?
These are just two that are brought to mind that often look for the "why" as well as the "how."
By the definitions given above, would an experiment into discovering how faith works, why it works, and what results come from the exercise of faith be considered a scientific experiment?
Annewandering's statement was beautifully worded and bears repeating:
Science and religion are all the same thing if they are truth. Some day we will find that many of the things that we believe are absolutes really werent. We will never find that God was not the truth. We will never find that what He tells us is false although we will find that He has given us bits and pieces at times since we have been too stubborn to learn the whole truth and we have also been a bit stubborn at hearing what He has actually told us.
As much as 2+2 yields a result, the experiment upon the word of God yields a result. Just as 10 people can drop bowling balls to test the law of gravity, millions of people have discovered for themselves the reality of the Living God through the experiments proposed by His prophets.
Just like scientists have created a few imperfect measuring tools for testing the world around us, we have several imperfect spirit measuring tools. Alma chapter 5 provides a great checklist to monitor our spiritual progression and regression. The baptismal and temple recommend interviews are excellent resources to see how far we have come and whether some tweaks need to be made in our lives.
Those measuring tools are just as real as microscopes and beakers and likewise give us definitive answers to the best of their ability. In similar fashion, all of the measuring tools have limitations and faults in their precision. Those using those tools have been known to manipulate the data for their own perceived gain.
The experiment upon the word of God yields results just as real as any scientific experiment ever performed, and yet of significantly greater importance.
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Hobby.
Get one.
If you already have one, get another one that forces you to physically go somewhere and associate with others.
Martial arts classes, dance classes, etc. Pick something you have always wanted to do. Maybe even something you've been afraid to try!
You'll have fun and will soon find something you LOVE to do.
When you have something you love to do, *boom*! Instant conversation with another person who enjoys similar hobbies.
To summarize:
Go and do the things that YOU want to do. When you find someone there doing the same things, *boom*! Instant friendship, love, antagonist.... All sorts of fun!
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The burden of proof lies with the person making the positive claim. This is something you have seemed to misunderstand.
I agree with you.
It's an extremely negative thing to not believe in God.
Oh, and if Vort wasn't giving you the silent treatment, he would tell you that he still doesn't believe in the sun as you have yet to prove it exists.
But we must use sensation in order to prove anything, to know anything, to understand anything. Therefore, denying the validity of sensory perception is to deny reality, to deny existence, and to deny all that has been known, is known, and ever will be known.
I actually DO agree with you on this statement!
And because it was so well spoken, I will also post the scientific formula for proving God exists.
Alma 32:26 Now, as I said concerning faith—that it was not a perfect knowledge—even so it is with my words. Ye cannot know of their surety at first, unto perfection, any more than faith is a perfect knowledge.
27 But behold, if ye will awake and arouse your faculties, even to an experiment upon my words, and exercise a particle of faith, yea, even if ye can no more than desire to believe, let this desire work in you, even until ye believe in a manner that ye can give place for a portion of my words.
Alma even uses the word "experiment" for us to understand what he is saying.
28 Now, we will compare the word unto a seed. Now, if ye give place, that a seed may be planted in your heart, behold, if it be a true seed, or a good seed, if ye do not cast it out by your unbelief, that ye will resist the Spirit of the Lord, behold, it will begin to swell within your breasts; and when you feel these swelling motions, ye will begin to say within yourselves—It must needs be that this is a good seed, or that the word is good, for it beginneth to enlarge my soul; yea, it beginneth to enlighten my understanding, yea, it beginneth to be delicious to me.
29 Now behold, would not this increase your faith? I say unto you, Yea; nevertheless it hath not grown up to a perfect knowledge.
30 But behold, as the seed swelleth, and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow, then you must needs say that the seed is good; for behold it swelleth, and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow. And now, behold, will not this strengthen your faith? Yea, it will strengthen your faith: for ye will say I know that this is a good seed; for behold it sprouteth and beginneth to grow.
31 And now, behold, are ye sure that this is a good seed? I say unto you, Yea; for every seed bringeth forth unto its own likeness.
32 Therefore, if a seed groweth it is good, but if it groweth not, behold it is not good, therefore it is cast away.
33 And now, behold, because ye have tried the experiment, and planted the seed, and it swelleth and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow, ye must needs know that the seed is good.
34 And now, behold, is your knowledge perfect? Yea, your knowledge is perfect in that thing, and your faith is dormant; and this because you know, for ye know that the word hath swelled your souls, and ye also know that it hath sprouted up, that your understanding doth begin to be enlightened, and your mind doth begin to expand.
35 O then, is not this real? I say unto you, Yea, because it is light; and whatsoever is light, is good, because it is discernible, therefore ye must know that it is good; and now behold, after ye have tasted this light is your knowledge perfect?
36 Behold I say unto you, Nay; neither must ye lay aside your faith, for ye have only exercised your faith to plant the seed that ye might try the experiment to know if the seed was good.
37 And behold, as the tree beginneth to grow, ye will say: Let us nourish it with great care, that it may get root, that it may grow up, and bring forth fruit unto us. And now behold, if ye nourish it with much care it will get root, and grow up, and bring forth fruit.
And following Alma relates to us a few variables that can sour the experiment and taint the results.
38 But if ye neglect the tree, and take no thought for its nourishment, behold it will not get any root; and when the heat of the sun cometh and scorcheth it, because it hath no root it withers away, and ye pluck it up and cast it out.
39 Now, this is not because the seed was not good, neither is it because the fruit thereof would not be desirable; but it is because your ground is barren, and ye will not nourish the tree, therefore ye cannot have the fruit thereof.
40 And thus, if ye will not nourish the word, looking forward with an eye of faith to the fruit thereof, ye can never pluck of the fruit of the tree of life.
And then Alma lists the results of the experiment when conducted properly.
41 But if ye will nourish the word, yea, nourish the tree as it beginneth to grow, by your faith with great diligence, and with patience, looking forward to the fruit thereof, it shall take root; and behold it shall be a tree springing up unto everlasting life.
42 And because of your diligence and your faith and your patience with the word in nourishing it, that it may take root in you, behold, by and by ye shall pluck the fruit thereof, which is most precious, which is sweet above all that is sweet, and which is white above all that is white, yea, and pure above all that is pure; and ye shall feast upon this fruit even until ye are filled, that ye hunger not, neither shall ye thirst.
43 Then, my brethren, ye shall reap the rewards of your faith, and your diligence, and patience, and long-suffering, waiting for the tree to bring forth fruit unto you.
This is the same experiment that has been tried by millions and millions of people. This is not the experiment that is limited to a few random scientists at a university trying to earn a paycheck and a name for themselves in a scientific journal. This formula is available for everyone to try.
It's not always easy. It won't necessarily yield the results quickly. But it does work each time it is tried.
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*sigh*
Let me sum things up if I can.
If sensory perception is acceptable as proof, I have felt the Holy Ghost.
If it is only experimental basis that provides proof, there have been millions of people who have experimented and felt the Holy Ghost in a similar manner.
If sensory perception through only the eyes is required, we have the experimental basis of several men who have seen God.
And talked with and heard God.
And felt His hands, feet, and side.
Not so sure that anyone has smelled or tasted the Savior, so I would concede those points.
If the witness of others cannot be trusted, you'd have a long road ahead in trying to come up with the scientific measuring tools on your own to prove the existence of the sun. Or wind. Or other planets. Etc.
I, on the other hand, have done my own experiment. I would urge everyone to do the same. :)
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Hey.
I've been there.
I don't mean to use this forum as a sounding board, but I have no one else to talk too.
What answer have you gotten when you talked to the Lord about it?
If she would just give me respect, me and my wife would stay in Arizona forever and she would have her grand kids. I just want respect for my position as father, husband and a human being.
Position rarely grants a person an honorable respect.
How often has someone bad-mouthed the President of the United States? How often have prophets been stoned and cast out? When God Himself came to the Earth, what type of respect should have been granted to Him?
He knows better than anyone how to succor us in these trials.
The Lord's words on the matter are fairly simple.
D&C 121:41 No power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood, only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned;
42 By kindness, and pure knowledge, which shall greatly enlarge the soul without hypocrisy, and without guile—
3 Nephi 12:44 But behold I say unto you, love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them who despitefully use you and persecute you;
45 That ye may be the children of your Father who is in heaven; for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good.
The TRUTH of the matter is that we cannot change our mothers-in-law, our spouses, our children, and barely do we have the power to even make a change within ourselves.
If you are trully more concerned about changing the situation rather than winning the argument, I would urge you to make a commitment to God today to repent of any contention you might have caused and promise to never allow contention to enter your heart again. Never. No matter what.
Contention is the killer of relationships.
It desensitizes us to the Spirit's promptings.
The second thing I would urge you to do is to diligently seek the Lord's response to this problem. The problem is not "how to change others." The problem is not your mother-in-law. The problem is knowing what to do to bring peace back into your heart, home, and family.
Once you receive the Lord's personal answer to you and follow it diligently, I can promise that all these problems in your life will be swallowed up by the power of the Atonement.
For me, it was a two-fold process. I distinctly received a prompting to fast for humility, patience, and faith. I also was prompted to be diligent to family prayer, scripture study, and weekly family home evenings. The power of this two-fold process resulted in the Lord changing my heart first. It was only through presistence to the Lord's recommendations that my entire family was given the strength to overcome the buffetings of Satan who, I want to assure you, also wants to see your family fail.
I don't know why I wrote this post to you as I rarely speak of it. But, I hope it can help you or any others who read it.
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Few realize that since and including the Civil war most combat casualties were from friendly fire.
While I am in agreement that a good portion of well-meaning concealed weapons carriers are more of a danger than a safety for those around them, I don't agree with this particular statement.
This CBS NEWS ARTICLE from a couple years ago, along with several others from a quick internet search, state the following:
The rate of friendly fire deaths for all U.S. troops in World War II was 12-14 percent; Vietnam, 10-14 percent; Grenada, 13 percent; and Panama, 6 percent.
As for the news story, her home state will most likely revoke her permit due to whatever penalty she receives from New York going on her record. While this is certainly unfortunate for her, she should have:
1. Learned the laws of the state she was traveling to. This is rule number 1 for most who have the permit isn't it? Learning where you can and cannot carry legally?
2. Resolved the issue herself by taking her weapon back to her hotel room, checking it in a secure location nearby that might have lock boxes (if not, see first option), or simply opting not to disarm herself by entering an area that requires it. Talking to ANYONE, even a law enforcement authority (ESPECIALLY a law enforcement authority!
), about your weapon is a no-no unless specifically approached and questioned. Carrying a weapon is like the Spirit, never leave home without it, never enter a place that requires you to leave it behind, and and make sure everyone you come in contact with feels it.
(Ok, maybe that last part only applies to the Spirit.....)
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Jayanna, as I read through this thread and marvel at how well you are coping with your struggles and how large the great and spacious building seems to be in your ward, my sincerest compliment and counsel to you would be:
Perhaps it's time that your service and love grows to an even greater degree.
I recognize the tendencies we all have at times that have been mentioned in this thread about wanting to let the gossipers have it and verbally punishing them for their uncharitable behavior. But, isn't that causing us to be guilty of the very thing we are accusing them of?
So, how do we handle these types who profess to be disciples of Christ and yet are wolves in sheep's clothing? The answer is always the same.
We love them. We pray for them. And we do the things for them that will help bring them to the Savior. (This is NOT an endorsement for murder!
)When others are not looking at investigators through the eye of charity, the question should not be, "How can we rudely make them feel guilty and belittle them at the same time?" but rather, "How can I help this person to see this investigator the way that I do? The way that Christ would?"
Perhaps when a public statement is made disparaging the parenting techniques of someone else we could respond with, "You know, I really want to help them. What do you suppose we could do to help them?" I have often found that such statements bring an opportunity to show that we were not alone in our thinking after all. My experience has shown that usually someone else comes forward, sometimes after enduring another snide remark or two unfortunately, and offers a suggestion or perhaps offers their own service.
Sometimes, people need an invitation. Asking a question can be a great way of opening an invitation for another to allow the Spirit to touch them. Perhaps you might even have some help getting others to church on Sunday.
The point is, this thread should show you that you are not alone in your thoughts and feelings. The Savior also heard the comments being made. He also loves that wayward RS Pres just as much as He loves that investigator.
3 Nephi 12:43 And behold it is written also, that thou shalt love thy neighbor and hate thine enemy;
44 But behold I say unto you, love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them who despitefully use you and persecute you;
45 That ye may be the children of your Father who is in heaven; for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good.
One of the hardest and most daunting tasks set before us in this life is to love those who don't "deserve" our love. It sounds like you have a blackbelt in love-jitsu already. Perhaps it's time to really take things to the next level in your training.
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Jayanna, that is such a neat experience you have shared! I do not believe it to be a typical experience. While our Father in Heaven does indeed bless many in what we would consider to be "extreme" ways, the experiences are often so different from one person to the next.
As for being quickened, there are certainly different levels of glory to be quickened to:
D&C 88: 28 They who are of a celestial spirit shall receive the same body which was a natural body; even ye shall receive your bodies, and your glory shall be that glory by which your bodies are quickened.
29 Ye who are quickened by a portion of the celestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.
30 And they who are quickened by a portion of the terrestrial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.
31 And also they who are quickened by a portion of the telestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.
Concerning the resurrection, we will apparently be quickened to a state of glory in which we will reside.
The scriptures also state that in order to see God we must be quickened. (D&C 67:11) Did you experience a particular quickening? I don't know. Apparently, it has been a mystery even to some prophets:
3 Nephi 28:13 And behold, the heavens were opened, and they were caught up into heaven, and saw and heard unspeakable things.
14 And it was forbidden them that they should utter; neither was it given unto them power that they could utter the things which they saw and heard;
15 And whether they were in the body or out of the body, they could not tell; for it did seem unto them like a transfiguration of them, that they were changed from this body of flesh into an immortal state, that they could behold the things of God.
16 But it came to pass that they did again minister upon the face of the earth; nevertheless they did not minister of the things which they had heard and seen, because of the commandment which was given them in heaven.
17 And now, whether they were mortal or immortal, from the day of their transfiguration, I know not;
Regardless, what a great experience you have had! I appreciate that you have shared it, knowing it must be very sacred to you.
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Seminary, I agree that we might be talking about two different things.
It seems that you are arguing that time exists and that it would be impossible for time not to exist. I'm not arguing.
The manual states it plainly and I simply tried to point out how it could be both scripturally based and scientifically sound.
The science is quantum physics and also theory of relativity.
The faster an object moves, the slower time passes for that object. Eventually, if an object moves fast enough, well beyond the speed of light, the object would eventually be able to travel into the past as well as the future. Eventually, given a certain speed, all time would be before the object at once; past, present, and future.
One thing that helped me was to see some scriptural basis for it.
The scriptures speak of being "quickened." Here are a couple for reference from the Guide to the Scriptures:
QUICKEN:
To make alive, to resurrect, or to change a person so that he can be in the presence of God.
God hath quickened us together with Christ, Eph. 2:4–5 (Col. 2:6, 12–13).
Christ was put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit, 1 Pet. 3:18 (D&C 138:7).
No man has seen God, except quickened by the Spirit, D&C 67:11
Redemption is through him that quickeneth all things, D&C 88:16–17
The Saints will be quickened and caught up to meet Christ, D&C 88:96
Adam became quickened in the inner man, Moses 6:65
If a Being were so quickened to such speeds as our Father in Heaven, all time would be before that Being at once. It is not that time ceases to exist, it is simply that all time is present at once.
Our Heavenly Father is not limited by time. If time were to pass the same for God as it does for us, then only the present exists. God would be guessing concerning the future because it hasn't happened yet. As you have agreed, however, time does not pass the same for God as it does for us.
To take it one step further is what is stated in the lesson manual and previously quoted by Jayanna:
Moses1:6 And I have a work for thee, Moses, my son; and thou art in the similitude of mine Only Begotten; and mine Only Begotten is and shall be the Savior, for he is full of grace and truth; but there is no God beside me, and all things are present with me, for I know them all.
In which the lesson manual then states:
Elder Neal A. Maxwell, a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, explained: “God does not live in the dimension of time as do we. We are not only hampered by our finiteness (experiential and intellectual), but also by being in the dimension of time. Moreover, God, since ‘all things are present’ with him, is not simply predicting based solely on the past. In ways that are not clear to us, he sees rather than foresees the future, because all things are at once present before him” (Things As They Really Are [1978])
It states plainly that we are in the dimension of time. God is not.
It is not that time does not exist, it is that all time, past, present, and future are at once before him.
Whether or not you believe in this way is fine with me as it doesn't affect my salvation or faith one way or the other. I would rather discuss how such ideas could be plausible and how they potentially shed light on misunderstood teachings, however, rather than attempting to prove what we already know about the passage of time in our dimension. :)
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It's funny that you mentioned your experiences being on the ward council.
I am a man and have experienced the very same feelings, frustrations, and even sadness at having my "good ideas" and thoughts being turned down by a Bishop when I have served on the ward council that you have expressed.
Laying aside the gender roles for a moment, the bigger question to me is why anyone wants the authority associated with those Priesthood keys.
As Elder Bednar pointed out during the training meeting with the new handbooks, revelation can come from any source. That can be the Young Women's President, the Bishop himself, the Ward Clerk, or the random 3 year old that happened to come with his parents and plays quietly in the corner. It's up to the Bishop to recognize that revelation as such and implement it. He is accountable to Christ for doing so.
So, as a member of the ward in general, we have all the opportunity to receive the same revelations, partake of the same Spirit, be edified thereby, or not. All the while not being held accountable to Christ for failing to make the correct decisions concerning others.
Isn't this WHY we are not supposed to aspire to callings to begin with?
So, going back to my question, why would anyone, male or female, be upset about not being given the responsibility for a leadership position in the church? Do we feel that we are limited in our abilities to serve others just because we are not called to a specific type of service? Do we feel that our standing with the Savior or our seat at the Celestial Dinner Table will be affected negatively by anyone other than ourselves?
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If he was wrong and a victim has been suffering because of the advise she got, does it really matter in the end if his intentions were good?
Yes.
Both in a court of law and at the judgement bar of Christ, intentions are at least a part of how people will be judged.
If a person is killed by a motorist, should it matter that the motorist was intentionally trying to run over someone he was angry at? Should the penalty be the same for someone who was destracted due to putting on her makeup? What if the car malfunctioned and it was beyond the motorist's control? Despite intentions, the end result is the death of an individual. But, the intentions of the motorist weigh heavily during judgement, sentencing, and especially their own feelings of guilt.
Regardless of the court's decision, the weightier matter for the Bishop will ultimately be how he answers to the Savior for the keys which were committed to him. I hope that this Bishop was not being neglectful in his duties and that his intentions were pure and honest.
Has it been reported what exactly was reported to the Bishop?
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I would respectfully disagree, at least in part.
I did, too until I read what the judge said.
Judge Anderson — after listening to nearly four hours of testimony and argument — questioned whether Moon "willfully" failed to report the abuse or was simply ignorant about his responsibility to report it.
"You don't have any evidence that he knew he had a duty to report," Anderson told Charles.
"It's clear he has a duty to report and didn't report," the judge added later. "I'm unsure whether the state has to show he knew he had a duty to report."
Anderson said he will decide whether Moon should stand trial on the charges and issue a written decision early next year.
Ultimately, in reading through what has been said, I do not disagree with Vort's point, perhaps just the somewhat judgemental way he likes to tell others not to be judgemental.
However, his point, even now, is still valid.
There are varying degrees of abuse, even sexual abuse and assault. For all we know, it could have been reported to the Bishop as a slap on the buttocks (legally considered assault) or some guy at school mooning her (indecent exposure). (I was unable to read the first news report as KSL.com is blocked at my work and am unsure if any specifics were stated concerning what was actually reported to the Bishop.)
It is obvious that this particular case was such that the Bishop initially assumed it did not warrant being reported as did several others who knew about the instance before the Bishop did. (according to the report)
It also sounds like the Bishop encouraged her to dress modestly, learn to forgive those who harm us, and be charitable in considering the feelings of others. My own Bishop counsels the young women in our ward these very same counsels as does the For the Strength of Youth pamphlet and modern prophets.
However, I certainly would not minimize abuse of any type, but especially sexual abuse and its terrible consequences. I can only hope that the Bishop's counsel and (in)actions were done from the perspective of charity and the best of intentions. The fact that he is still serving as Bishop and still sits on the board tells me that both agencies tend to not see Bishop Moon as a threat as others who have been accused of abuse in the past have immediately been released, pending investigations.
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In what way is it limiting?
The passage of time limits one to control over the present only.
I would like to know how you arrived at that presumed idea from which your desire to make it plausible stems.
Kicking and screaming.
I actually didn't care for the idea when it was first presented as my finite mind had trouble comprehending it. "How could the passage of time not exist for God as it does for me?" "How can time NOT pass while God watches our time pass?"
The idea finally started to settle when I realized that Celestial law is a couple of degrees removed from the Telestial-esque laws we experience now.
The idea of something lasting eternally also began to settle for me when I began to see that time is not experienced the same way for a quickened Being. If such an One were quickened to the point that all time was before them at once, that Being would be considered eternal as they are present during all time. The would be no beginning and no end for such.
As I said earlier, you certainly don't have to accept it the way I see it as I will READILY admit that I am viewing the Eternities with a fallen and veiled mind!
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Well, that is my point exactly, SS.
You said that living requires the passage of time. The very same statement that is used to counter the belief that a Being is so quickened that all time is before Him at once is the same statement that can be used to counter the point that living "requires" the passage of time.
That point being an attempt to put restraints on the power and understanding of our Heavenly Father using our own limited understanding of the science of the eternities. Using the understanding of how this Telestial-esque existence works in order to understand how Celestial laws operate...
My point was not to convince you, merely to show that it IS plausible and has scriptural merit. It also has value in helping us understand how our Father in Heaven's power is not limited by the passage of time.
As for some taking the scripture as their basis for God existing outside of time, I do not believe that to be the case. They take an understanding of science and the principle of time dilation (due to our Heavenly Father being a quickened Being) and seek to understand how both could work together to come to a greater understanding of how an Eternal Being lives. All of the scriptures that are being quoted are simply to help understand how such is plausible.
It explains how all things past, present, and future are before God at once.
It explains how those who lived before the Atonement was accomplished could still have it applied in their lives.
It explains how God's knowledge of future events does not detract from our agency.
As for my own beliefs, I don't claim to know. I haven't been to heaven since this veil was put over my mind.
As for the TRUTH of the matter, it is probably something we haven't even begun to consider nor comprehend.
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For me, the most necessary reasons for having the Book of Mormon are included in the book itself:
2 Nephi 3:12 Wherefore, the fruit of thy loins shall write; and the fruit of the loins of Judah shall write; and that which shall be written by the fruit of thy loins, and also that which shall be written by the fruit of the loins of Judah, shall grow together, unto the (1) confounding of false doctrines and (2) laying down of contentions, and (3) establishing peace among the fruit of thy loins, and (4) bringing them to the knowledge of their fathers in the latter days, and (5) also to the knowledge of my covenants, saith the Lord.
1. True doctrines of salvation
2. No more contention
3. The establishment of peace
4. Understanding of the gospel had by the ancients
5. Understanding the necessary covenants that must be made with God
The fact is, I can testify to how each of these has impacted my individual family on a day-to-day basis.
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And, there is nothing gained in terms of our gospel from saying that God does not experience the passage of time
For me, there are huge gains to be had from such a knowledge, the least of which being that Heavenly Father does not make "educated guesses" concerning the future.
As for the phrase, "bring to pass," would it not make sense that our Heavenly Father speaks to us in terms that we can understand? For instance, He speaks English to us, which is a lesser language than that spoken where He resides. Would He not then speak to us in terms that we can understand concerning time and space?
Regardless of my speculations on the matter, two things we can know for sure:
Alma 40:8 Now whether there is more than one time appointed for men to rise it mattereth not; for all do not die at once, and this mattereth not; all is as one day with God, and time only is measured unto men.
As per the original quote, I do not believe it would be included in the Book of Mormon, which was difficult to engrave due to the Nephites' awkwardness, if it were not important for us to know.
D&C 130:7 But they reside in the presence of God, on a globe like a sea of glass and fire, where all things for their glory are manifest, past, present, and future, and are continually before the Lord.
This pertains directly to our potential to become like our Heavenly Father. How can future events be continually before a Being's face if they haven't happened?
As for trying to change your belief, this isn't really the intent of my post. I am merely pointing out that such a belief is not only plausible but can easily be supported scripturally.
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1. For me, hands down it's The Book of Mormon.
2. Depends on what you mean by "prove." Proof meaning sufficient evidences that could potentially convince or dissuade others? Yes.
3. I would go one step further and state that all "evidence" of truth is subjective to the senses. "Seeing" is merely light reflecting from an object, entering your brain through a complex series of neurons, and interpreting those impulses based on previous experiences. Same with touch, taste, smell, and sound. All impulses being subject to the interpretation of the one experiencing them.
That being said, the real "proof" for me comes by the overwhelmingly powerful outside influences I have felt by having my spirit touched and my heart changed. Like any good experiment, the results of my prayers are conclusive evidence for me. All I can urge others to do is "come and see."
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If you (meaning anyone, not just 'you' Traveler) understand that God is capable of manipulating space time (whatever that made up concept is) do you think that He could receive the glory that comes from an act before the act is done. For example, has God already received the glory that comes from all the earth bound souls who will some day receive Eternal Life? Or, does it actually have to be brought to pass?
I think there are some laws that are universal and cannot be altered or they stop being laws even if there is mastery within the bounds of the law.
I agree. The universal law requires that the act be accomplished.
However, if all things are before God (past, present, and future) and time really does not exist or at least inhibit such a Being, I suppose the act doesn't need to be done as it already has been accomplished.
This would also account for how the Atonement could apply to beings "before" it was actually accomplished by the Savior. (Granted, it was only applied in part as their was no resurrection.)
Likewise, it also accounts for how anything in the future could be "seen" before it actually occurs. Traveler is attempting to mesh our rather limited views of science with our even more limited view of God.
Science, when properly understood from an eternal perspective, will ultimately serve to help us understand our Father in Heaven.
And I hereafter dub thee "Time Traveler."
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I'm new to the site, so, I apologize if I am restating something obvious to everyone else.
Genesis 17:11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.
12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.
Joseph Smith Translation of Genesis 17:11 And I will establish a covenant of circumcision with thee, and it shall be my covenant between me and thee, and thy seed after thee, in their generations; that thou mayest know for ever that children are not accountable before me until they are eight years old.
The token of circumcision at eight days old was made in order to remember that children were not accountable to God until they were eight years old. It was established with an outward token and symbol (as most covenants are) so as to be remembered from generation to genenation by the seed of Abraham. A rereading of Genesis 17 demonstrates the covenants to the seed of Abraham.
( I suppose it would be tough symbol to forget...
)The tokens and symbols of all our covenants are established by God. Each has a deep meaning that help us remember events that will happen or have happened and that allow us to draw closer to our Savior.
Judging by verses 3 - 7 in the JST I also assume there was a lot more going on than what we might have guessed.
Did you serve an LDS mission?
in General Discussion
Posted · Edited by Colirio
RCB, that is an awesome story! I really love hearing about those times when so many people got a chance to serve.
It's amazing to me how almost every missionary has at least one faith promoting story where things just seemed to work in a miraculous way.
Oh, and I served in the Tampa, Florida mission for a month or so waiting for my visa to Brazil. I saw someone else had also served in Florida...