Colirio
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Posts posted by Colirio
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6 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:
You miss the points I made.
The manual states they do not repent- that they remain unrepentant. If they did repent at some point in the spirit world they would be terrestrial bound. This is paramount because the verses in section 19 concerning the unrepentant is pointed directly at the sons of perdition, not heirs of salvation.
The only way redemption from sin through Christ works is repentance and baptism. It is impossible outside of repentance and baptism. Again, the manual is wrong.
Being completely removed from Christs mercy means one is not justified to be cleansed through the blood of Christ. Again, the manual is wrong.
Rob, you are misinterpreting what is stated. You also fail to take other doctrine into consideration.
Mosiah 27:31 Yea, every knee shall bow, and every tongue confess before him. Yea, even at the last day, when all men shall stand to be judged of him, then shall they confess that he is God; then shall they confess, who live without God in the world, that the judgment of an everlasting punishment is just upon them; and they shall quake, and tremble, and shrink beneath the glance of his all-searching eye.
On page 1, I encouraged you to study by faith as well as by learning.
To be bold, what that means is that you should assume that if the doctrine seems to not fit, then YOU are the one not understanding the teachings. It's not the manual, the prophets, the scriptures, or the church that is wrong.
Learning by faith means that you have to accept some things based on faith until you can come to a better understanding of how the pieces fit together. Instead of assuming that doctrines conflict with each other, prayerfully pondering how they might both be true will enlighten your understanding to even greater truths.
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11 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:
Especially where we see them often commanded to not write something.
True! And not to mention:
Words of Mormon 1:5
5 Wherefore, I chose these things, to finish my record upon them, which remainder of my record I shall take from the plates of Nephi; and I cannot write the hundredthpart of the things of my people.
Ether 15:33
33 And the Lord spake unto Ether, and said unto him: Go forth. And he went forth, and beheld that the words of the Lord had all been fulfilled; and he finished his record; (and the hundredth part I have not written) and he hid them in a manner that the people of Limhi did find them.
Helaman 3:14
14 But behold, a hundredth partof the proceedings of this people, yea, the account of the Lamanites and of the Nephites, and their wars, and contentions, and dissensions, and their preaching, and their prophecies, and their shipping and their building of ships, and their building of temples, and of synagogues and their sanctuaries, and their righteousness, and their wickedness, and their murders, and their robbings, and their plundering, and all manner of abominations and whoredoms, cannot be contained in this work.
3 Nephi 26:6-7
6 And now there cannot be written in this book even a hundredthpart of the things which Jesus did truly teach unto the people;
3 Nephi 5:8
8 And there had many things transpired which, in the eyes of some, would be great and marvelous; nevertheless, they cannot all be written in this book; yea, this book cannot contain even a hundredth part of what was done among so many people in the space of twenty and five years;
Jacob 3:13
13 And a hundredth part of the proceedings of this people, which now began to be numerous, cannot be written upon these plates; but many of their proceedings are written upon the larger plates, and their wars, and their contentions, and the reigns of their kings.
- Vort and The Folk Prophet
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In 1 Corinthians 15, Paul mentioned the names of the glories and referenced briefly baptism for the dead. Nowhere else in the Bible or Book of Mormon does it mention where they were given the tenants of these teachings, but it is obvious they had some information concerning those doctrines beyond what is in our current standard works.
Just like we can't assume that past dispensations had all the teachings we have today, it would also be hasty on our part to assume that they didn't have certain teachings due to not having referenced such.
I believe this is what TFP is saying, and if so, I agree.
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On 5/31/2017 at 3:13 PM, Rob Osborn said:
There is no doubt in my study and contemplation that some of the very basic teachings regarding the plan of salvation that we teach in church from our manuals just arent true.
Rob, do you think it is possible that you are misunderstanding, or misinterpreting, the doctrines and teachings?
It's obvious that you have studied your scriptures extensively. That's great! You have obviously pondered a lot on the things you have studied, also. But, if I may be bold for a moment, so have the millions of other religious people of the world. Even Joseph Smith determined that an appeal to the Bible alone wasn't going to settle his dilemma of learning the truth.
It seems to me that you are seeking learning by study, which is good. I am suggesting the possibility that you are forgetting the important aspect of learning by faith. (D&C 88:118)
“We would remind you that the acquiring of knowledge by faith is no easy road to learning. It demands strenuous effort and a continual striving by faith. …
Learning by faith is no task for a lazy man [or woman]. Someone has said, in effect, that such a process requires the bending of the whole soul, the calling up from the depths of the human mind and linking it with God—the right connection must be formed. Then only comes ‘knowledge by faith.”
-President Harold B. Lee
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23 minutes ago, yjacket said:
Considering I'm not a female, I'd say that is a 100% chance and that's a good thing! :-).
Thus the joke....
As the OP stated that one of the women in question is married to the Bishop, I can see where alternative solutions could be presented. (Especially when we have so little information about the entirety of the matter.) If @Vort and @person0 would read carefully what I said, they would see that I never insinuated that the EQP had anything to do with the young woman's presidency...
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Well, I've read the whole thread. Some observations that should be stated:
1. I'm 89% sure that @yjacket will never become the Young Women's president. He's just too heavy handed...
2. @Lilyflowers88 is obviously upset at the incident and the way it was handled. Whether it was right, wrong, both, or neither, it would be good to speak with someone about the situation. A lot of who she speaks with depends on who she trusts and is comfortable speaking to about the matter. The Bishop is a great resource! If not, there are other leaders who hold keys in the ward. For instance, the Elder's Quorum President holds keys and is able to offer some guidance and counsel. If the discussion turns to worthiness issues, however, it will ultimately need to go to the Bishop.
3. @Lilyflowers88, might I recommend, as was suggested earlier, that you treat this OPPORTUNITY for what it really is; a chance to apply the gospel of Jesus Christ? It is also a great OPPORTUNITY to help strengthen your daughter's testimony of the Savior. Pray about a solution with her. Be willing to repent and accept counsel as needed. Be willing to forgive. Help your daughter to do so, also. Don't let this really neat OPPORTUNITY to teach your daughter pass you by!
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Having the opportunity to fail, while surrounded by people who love them, is such an important growing experience for the youth!
I have served in the young men's organization for almost 2 decades and currently serve in the stake young men's presidency. I have experienced quite a few parents who become distraught about decisions made by church leaders and advisors.
There is a somewhat strange thought process that if the youth experience disappointment or failure, their testimony is going to suffer, they will go inactive, they will leave the church, and ultimately lose their exaltation.
If your stake leaders are encouraging you to have no backup brownies, then the opportunity to learn about failure is probably just what the young women need at this time. The parents who complain the most are likely the ones whose children need this opportunity most.
Let us know how it turns out!
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2 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:
If the sequence of events that make up the passage of time is nonexistant with God then there is no cause and effect.
Hey Rob, I don't believe that anyone said that time is nonexistent for God. Just to clarify, what I stated was:
"In fact, the opposite is true. ALL time exists for God at once, past, present, and future. That is scripturally based and confirmed through modern prophets."
Once again, you don't have to take my word for it. I encourage everyone to seek their own answers through prayer and study.
I find debate to typically entrench the parties further into their own views and therefore am not really interested in it.
"Like Laman and Lemuel, many today would consign God only to the past; He thereby ceases to be the constant God of yesterday, today, and tomorrow (see 2 Ne. 27:23). Actually, God has the past, present, and future ever before Him, constituting an 'eternal "now"' (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, sel. Joseph Fielding Smith [1976], 220; see also D&C 130:7)."
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1 hour ago, Eydis said:
It is the belief that time simply doesn't exist for God.
I don't remember anyone stating this belief. If they did, they would be wrong in their assertion according to LDS doctrine. At the very least they should probably rephrase what they intended to say.
In fact, the opposite is true. ALL time exists for God at once, past, present, and future. That is scripturally based and confirmed through modern prophets.
"The Lord Himself said that He `knoweth all things, for all things are present' before Him. (D&C 38:2.) We read, too, that `all things are present with me, for I know them all.' (Moses 1:6.) Therefore, God's omniscience is not solely a function of prolonged and discerning familiarity with us-but of the stunning reality that the past and present and future are part of an `eternal now' with God! (Joseph Smith, History of the Church 4:597.)" (Neal A. Maxwell, All These Things Shall Give Thee Experience, pp. 7,8.)
Don't just take my word for it, though. Pray and get your own answers!
For me, such a discussion is far less important than applying the gospel in our lives.
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On 3/21/2017 at 10:06 AM, The Folk Prophet said:
But they wanted it noticed. That's the point of it. Because noticed it becomes fulfillment of an agenda.
I agree.
The moment, from most accounts, seems to have been way overblown. I also agree that it is simply another small chip taken out of our moral standards as a society.
But the proof of what you say is in the director's own comments:
“Can I just tell you? It’s all been overblown,” director Bill Condon said Friday in an interview with ScreenCrush.
Last week, Condon told Attitude magazine that the character LeFou (Josh Gad), “wants to kiss Gaston (Luke Evans),” in what “is a nice, exclusively gay moment in a Disney movie.”
“Because it’s just this — it’s part of just what we had fun with,” Condon said. “I love the way it plays pure when people don’t know and it comes as a nice surprise.”
So, while some might take the director's words as attempting to downplay the issue, I see his words as being the exact opposite.
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1 hour ago, Eydis said:
It is important to my testimony that when I do something righteous I am actually giving glory to God.
"Our agency is preserved, however, by the fact that as we approach a given moment we do not know what our response will be. Meanwhile, God has foreseen what we will do and has taken our decision into account (in composite with all others), so that His purposes are not frustrated. It is unfortunate that our concerns do not center more upon the correctness of what we do in a given moment-and less upon whether or not God's having foreseen what we would do then somehow compromises our agency. It is equally regrettable that our souls should be troubled at all because we cannot figure out `how' God does it, when it has been made so abundantly clear and on so many occasions that He does do it." (Neal A. Maxwell, All These Things Shall Give Thee Experience, p. 12.)
1 hour ago, Eydis said:As far as gospel doctrine goes, I would like to hear the reasons why someone who believes that God is timeless stengthens their testimony, not that God can see all time as if it is one day but how does it help one's testimony to believe that God does not experience the passage of time. What is gained specifically by that concept alone, the lack of passage of time but still being able to see all time?
I don't remember anyone using the word "timeless" to describe God in this thread as that particular word often has other connotations. (I.e. Timeless oldies music soundtrack, etc.)
Elder Maxwell said that God is not bound by time.
As to your point, some of the reasons just off the top of my head that God not being bound by time is important:
1. For the people who lived before the atonement, their sins could still remitted by something that "hadn't happened yet."
2. Christ's past and future victories were and are assured. Not just a "guess based on past experience" as someone who doesn't believe in God's omniscience might surmise. The war against Satan is won by Christ, even though it still wages in our time.
3. Those who are faithful might receive their calling and election made sure while still in mortality. Your place is prepared. God's purposes cannot be frustrated.
There are probably a myriad of reasons that I haven't even thought about. For myself, it's comforting to know that it's not just a guess. It's not a "hope." God already has prepared our reward and is able to assure us the perfect mortal opportunities to become more like Him.
"One of the most helpful-indeed, very necessary-parallel truths to be pondered when studying this powerful doctrine of foreordination is given in the revelation of the Lord to Moses in which the Lord says, `And all things are present with me, for I know them all' (Moses 1:6). God does not live in the dimension of time as do we. Moreover, since `all things are present with' God, his is not simply a predicting based solely upon the past. In ways which are not clear to us, he actually sees, rather than foresees,the future-because all things are, at once, present, before him!" (Neal A. Maxwell, "A More Determined Discipleship," Ensign, February 1979, p. 72.)
For me, to read that statement from an apostle of the Lord is a comfort.
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1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:
So, if time is only measured to man why did it take God six days to create the earth.
1. Time exists. We are subject to it.
2. God the Father did not create the Earth alone. Who else helped? Again, when God deals with man, He speaks and associates to their understanding.
EDIT: To help clarify what I mean, Elder Maxwell said:
"Both space and time are real, not just illusions, but God created them both and is not bound by either. Besides, we mortals make our decisions within our framework of understanding, not God's."(Neal A. Maxwell, Plain and Precious Things, p. 57.)
I now counter your question:
Why do you suppose we refer to being married in the temple as being "sealed for TIME and all eternity?"
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8 minutes ago, anatess2 said:
Sigh.
Anatess, your avatar fits this statement perfectly!
</ off topic>
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1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:
Because we know that God too has his own reckoning of time and that it takes time, as defined by reckoning and sequencial events, then it is obvious that part of Gods laws that he works with is the reality that God too has a past, where things happened, a present, which state he is currently in, and a future of which has yet to unfold.
Rob, again, the scriptures do not agree with you.
God's references to time are to help us, as mortals with limited understanding, be able to comprehend.
Alma clearly defines it:
Alma 40:8 Now whether there is more than one time appointed for men to rise it mattereth not; for all do not die at once, and this mattereth not; all is as one day with God, and time only is measured unto men.
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On 3/8/2017 at 2:11 PM, Rob Osborn said:
Its pretty vague actually. We could quote prophet against prophet, scripture against scripture saying opposite things.
Open minded?
I took your answer to me that you simply intended to debate the matter.
The truth is, Rob, I personally have no need to debate the answer. I have already felt the Spirit bear witness that the words of Elder Maxwell, the scriptures, and the Savior are true.
The only reason I wanted to help you, or anyone else understand is because the logical conclusion of your reasoning is that God could potentially be wrong in His assertions. It completely undermines the confidence we, as His sons and daughters, could have in His words to us.
Once again, Elder Maxwell:
"When we understand that all things are present before His eyes and that He knows all things past, present, and future, then we can trust ourselves to Him as we clearly could not to a less than omniscient god who is off somewhere in the firmament doing further research." (Neal A. Maxwell, All These Things Shall Give Thee Experience, pp. 36-37.)
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For those who want to understand, here is a great resource for study about the matter in the D&C Student Manual:
Here's a quote from the manual that helps us understand:
"D&C 130:4–7. The Relativity of Time
Several scriptures suggest that the way we perceive time on earth may not be the way time really is throughout the universe. Alma 40:8suggests that only men measure time and that to God all time is as one day. Other scriptures suggest that all things are present before the Lord (see D&C 38:2; Moses 1:6). Verses 4–7 in section 130 suggest a similar concept, namely that past, present, and future are continually before the Lord and that time is relative to the planet on which one resides.
In the twentieth century, the field of physics began to speak about time and space in a way that may help explain these revelatory statements. Albert Einstein, in the early part of this century, developed what is known as the theory of relativity. Einstein postulated that what men had assumed were absolutes in the physical world—space, gravity, speed, motion, time—were not absolutes at all but were interrelated with each other. That is why the theory was called the theory of relativity. Physicists now agree that a person’s time reference will vary depending on his relative position in space.
According to Einstein’s theory, if a body moves at very fast speeds (those approaching the speed of light, which is 186,000 miles per second), that body’s time slows down in relation to the time of a body that is on earth; and for the body in motion, space contracts or shrinks. In other words, time and space are not two separate things but are interrelated. Physicists refer to this as the space-time continuum. If an astronaut were to journey out into space at speeds approaching the speed of light, though to himself all would seem perfectly normal, to someone on earth it would appear as though his clock were ticking slower, his heart were beating slower, his metabolism operating slower, and so on. He would actually age more slowly than would a person who remained on the earth. Though the finite mind tends to reject such concepts, Einstein’s theory suggests that reality to us is a product of our relative position in the space-time continuum.
According to this theory, if a being achieved the speed of light, to that being all space would contract to the point that it would be “here” for him, and all time would slow down until it became “now” for him. The theory of relativity thus may suggest how, for a being of light and glory like God, all space and all time could be present. As difficult as such a concept is to understand, increasingly sophisticated experiments continue to substantiate Einstein’s theoretical description of the realities of the universe.
Lael Woodbury, dean of the College of Fine Arts and Communications at Brigham Young University, talked about man’s perception of time and God’s perception of time in an address sponsored by the Church Educational System:
“The evidence suggests that God … perceives time as we perceive space. That’s why ‘all things are before him, and all things are round about him; and he is above all things, and in all things, and is through all things, and is round about all things’ [D&C 88:41]. Time, like space, is ‘continually before the Lord.’ …
“… Right now we perceive music in time as a blind man perceives form in space—sequentially. He explores with his fingers, noting form, texture, contours, rhythms. He holds each perception in his mind, one by one, carefully adding one to the other, until he synthesizes his concept of what that space object must be like. You and I don’t do that. We perceive a space object immediately. We simply look at it, and to a certain degree we ‘know it. We do [not] go through a one-by-one, sequential, additive process. We perceive that it is, and we are able to distinguish it from any other object.
“I’m suggesting that God perceives time as instantaneously as we perceive space. For us, time is difficult. Lacking higher facility, we are as blind about time as a sightless man is about space. We perceive time in the same way that we perceive music—sequentially. We explore rhythm, pitch, amplitude, texture, theme, harmonies, parallels, and contrasts. And from our perceptions we synthesize our concept of the object or event—the musical artwork—that existed in its entirety before we began our examination of it.
“Equally complete now is each of our lives before the Lord. We explore them sequentially because we are time-blind. But the Lord, perceiving time as space, sees us as we are, not as we are becoming. We are, for him, beings without time. We are continually before him—the totality of our psyches, personalities, bodies, choices, and behaviors.” (Continually before the Lord, Commissioner’s Lecture Series [Provo: Brigham Young University Press, 1974], pp. 5–6.)"
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Here is decent article that discusses some of the issues already brought up in this topic:
http://www.ldsliving.com/How-Does-God-s-Time-Really-Work/s/80028
Just to be clear, God being outside of time like mortals isn't just an LDS belief. Elder Neal A. Maxwell stated the following:
"But modern revelations make it abundantly clear that God is not `in time' in the manner that we mortals are. This is precisely what some able and perceptive commentators have surmised as they have wrestled sincerely with this dilemma, though without `plain and precious' modern scriptures. For example, the philosopher Boethius described in the fifth century how `God is outside of time and does not foresee the future; rather, he sees it in an "eternal now" that is equally present to all parts of time. God did not know yesterday what I will do tomorrow; he sees timelessly in eternity "what I am doing" in the future just as he sees what I am doing now. We must be careful not to conclude that since past, present, and future are equally present to God, they are equally present to each other. Both space and time are real, not just illusions, but God created them both and is not bound by either.' Besides, we mortals make our decisions within our framework of understanding, not God's. The modern revelations give needed clarification and confirmation concerning God's omniscience through these significant insights when laid alongside those from the Bible: `His understanding is infinite.' (Psalm 147:5.) `God . . . knoweth all things.' (1 John 3:20.) `And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation.' (Acts 17:26.) `O how great the holiness of our God! For he knoweth all things, and there is not anything save he knows it.' (2 Nephi 9:20.) 5`The Lord knoweth all things from the beginning; wherefore, he prepareth a way to accomplish all his works among the children of men; for behold, he hath all power unto the fulfilling of all his words. And thus it is. Amen.' (1 Nephi 9:6.) `In the presence of God . . . all things for their glory are manifest, past, present, and future, and are continually before the Lord.' (D&C 130:7. See also 88:41.) `All things are present before mine eyes.' (D&C 38:2.) `All things are present with me, for I know them all.' (Moses 1:6.) These verses confirm what has been referred to as `the eternal now'-within which God exists, so that He sees rather than foresees." (Neal A. Maxwell, Plain and Precious Things, p. 57.)
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Just a trick for eating the veggies I don't like (in the beginning):
Steam or boil them too long.
This makes them a lot softer. Then I add a decent amount of pepper and salt. (Which makes most things taste about the same when cooked too long.)
So, after eating them in this manner, over the course of time, my taste buds go from loathing them, to tolerating them, to being "meh," to being ok, to having some decent compliment to some other foods, to kinda liking, to really enjoying them, and finally to craving them at times.
I agree with Suzie...
You not only get used to vegetables the more you eat them, but your body actually starts to have cravings for them!
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3 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:
Yeah, thats all ridiculous!
Rob, I would love to help you understand. But are you willing to accept what the scriptures, modern prophets, and the Savior has said about the matter?
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On 3/7/2017 at 0:48 AM, Rob Osborn said:
I will bring it up again- Does God make decisions? If we say he does (I dont think anyone would disagree) then it means God chooses between alternate paths and each one of those choices leads down a path that paves the way in front of him. Now it may be true God can see a myriad of differing paths beforehand and where they may lead but he still makes a choice to choose one over others. To say otherwise would mean God does know every intricate detail and doesnt make any choice as its already exactly laid out in front of him and he can only do that which exactly is the one path scenerio playing a mere puppet to the path of destiny that he doesnt control.
Rob, once again, both scriptures and prophets disagree with you. Likewise, the Savior's words to the prophets disagree with you.
"The Lord Himself said that He `knoweth all things, for all things are present' before Him. (D&C 38:2.) We read, too, that `all things are present with me, for I know them all.' (Moses 1:6.) Therefore, God's omniscience is not solely a function of prolonged and discerning familiarity with us-but of the stunning reality that the past and present and future are part of an `eternal now' with God! (Joseph Smith, History of the Church 4:597.)" (Neal A. Maxwell, All These Things Shall Give Thee Experience, pp. 7,8.)
"One of the most helpful-indeed, very necessary-parallel truths to be pondered when studying this powerful doctrine of foreordination is given in the revelation of the Lord to Moses in which the Lord says, `And all things are present with me, for I know them all' (Moses 1:6). God does not live in the dimension of time as do we. Moreover, since `all things are present with' God, his is not simply a predicting based solely upon the past. In ways which are not clear to us, he actually sees, rather than foresees,the future-because all things are, at once, present, before him!" (Neal A. Maxwell, "A More Determined Discipleship," Ensign, February 1979, p. 72.)
It may seem you have brilliant point about God making decisions and therefore must be limited in his knowledge. I am saying that you are placing limits on God based on limited, mortal understanding of agency as well as "time."
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4 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:
But God cannot know everything.
The scriptures disagree with you.
2 Nephi 9: 20 O how great the holiness of our God! For he knoweth all things, and there is not anything save he knows it.
Indeed, there is an entire section in the topical guide concerning God's omniscience.
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/tg/god-omniscience-of?lang=eng
Likewise, an entire section on God's foreknowledge of all things.
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/tg/god-foreknowledge-of?lang=eng
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Even prophets, as mere mortals, have been able to see the future. In fact, they are prophets, SEERS, and revelators.
Some of the things they have seen were certain individuals and groups sinning and others performing righteous acts.
It stands to reason that if this power can be given to mortals, by God, then God has greater access to what will happen than we might realize.
These aren't educated guesses or even decisions based on experience. God has a sure knowledge of what will happen because all things past, present, and future are before him.
Here is a page that has several excellent quotes from an apostle of the Lord that describes the power better than I can.
Refusing To Make The Cake
in LDS Gospel Discussion
Posted
It amazes me that any Latter Day Saint believes that a supposed "right to marry" would in ANY capacity trump someone else's freedom of religion.