grauchy123

Whenever these complex questions of who ends up with who in the afterlife arise, I can't help thinking about the words of Jesus Christ. He responded to a very similar question on complicated marital relationships and how they will be resolved in the afterlife. Question to Jesus: "Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven?" Read his response in Matthew 22:24-33 Matthew 22:24-33

How do you keep track of all the commandments, counsel, rules, policies, etc.? Is there a checklist somewhere?

The same could be said of the LDS paid clergy at the level of General Authority and above (Including some Mission Presidents that are paid). Or any LDS employee be it CES or COB. They are so heavily invested in their careers that leaving the LDS Church is a high cost.

Ah ok, it was just a question that bugged me. If Brass means Bronze I wonder why it doesn't just say Bronze then. I wasn't questioning the veracity of scripture with this question. It was just that a question. Thank you.

Or better yet, How could Laban's book have even been made of Brass to begin with given that it's a relatively new alloy and didn't come into use in that region until the Roman Empire brought the technology into the region.

From the screwtape letters by C.S. Lewis Even though later in the debate the Devil went with "I'll just tell 'em there's no hurry", this quote came to mind when I read the OP.

Thanks for the good source reference for Coffee/Tea Do we have a citable source for *all* alcoholic beverages as is the modern application? I don't want this thread to become a discussion of the merits of WoW or the and/if/but/how's I'm just looking for a primary source reference. Thanks.

I'm looking the actual source reference for the modern application of the Word of Wisdom. i.e. No Tobacco, Coffee, Tea, Alcohol. D&C 89 only specifically prohibits Tobacco, Hot Drinks, and "Strong Drink" (While making allowance for "Mild Drink"). I can find many many references in conference talks discussing prohibition of Coffee, Tea, Alcohol. The GAs in these cases usually just refer to "Modern Day Revelation" but they fail to ever cite the primary source. Sometimes they also incorrectly imply that D&C 89 covers these issues specifically. The primary source is the one I'm looking for help locating. Which prophet received this revelation and when? I'd really like to read it and be able to cite it as a source reference. Thank you.

I don't know what the policy on this board is for quoting the CHI so I'll just paraphrase it... CHI vol 1 Section 3.3.4 transsexuals cannot receive a temple recommend -No caveats listed for first presidency approval or anything like that as is common in other sections. CHI vol 1 Section 6.7.2 Bishops are to counsel against *elective* transsexual surgery. (emphasis mine) Bishops are to refer questions about the policy to the Stake and the stake should ask the First Presidency This section also states that such an operation may be grounds for church discipline CHI vol 1 Section 16.3.16 (Again, this section uses the word "elective") transsexuals (including those considering transsexual operations) cannot be: Baptized, Confirmed, or receive the priesthood -An exception policy for Baptism/Confirmation is listed as needing approval from the First Presidency. -No exception listed for the Priesthood

What do you all make of this quote in light of free agency and the need for repentance? Joseph Smith: “When a seal is put upon the father and mother, it secures their posterity, so that they cannot be lost, but will be saved by virtue of the covenant of their father and mother” (in History of the Church, 5:530)

I will be visiting with them again around the 4th of July. Thanks for all your ideas and input

Perhaps you are right, maybe my parents are hoping for that. But from our conversation it sounded more like they were complaining that they now have to double down to ensure that the sealing powers will bring me and my brother into the Celestial Kingdom. Does that sound like they have a proper understanding? I don't think so. I'm wondering if there is a tactful way of letting them down easy about that.

Correct, in my 40 years as a member, I never heard of the possibility of a parent saving a child through the sealing power. As to determining if it's a False Doctrine.... *I* believe it is False, I was hoping that you guys could direct me to some sources that show that from the official LDS perspective it's also False. But it seems that this Doctrine is up for some debate and it's not clear that it's all True or all False from the LDS perspective. So there's no conclusion I guess. Thanks for contributing!

I never said that Mormons don't put their faith in Christ. I said that if *I* accepted parental salvation then *I* would be redirecting my faith. I'm still not sure if it's an actual Mormon Doctrine or not. Seems some on this thread think is it others don't. I was hoping you all would tell me unequivocally that it's a false doctrine then I could let my parents know and relieve them of the pressure. Because right now they are trying to be righteous enough to save their wayward children on top of everything else.

I'm inclined to agree with you. I've placed my faith in Christ for salvation. If I were to accept this Doctrine of parental salvation then I would be redirecting my eye from Christ to my Parents hoping with faith that they can be righteous enough to engage the sealing powers so that I can be saved.

I guess I don't see how that has anything to do with the righteousness of my parents

You're right of course. I just wish I could take that worry away from them.

Ah good, so maybe that's the part that my parent's have overlooked. Besides, I am a practicing believing Christian so I don't really see myself as any more wayward or in need of repentance than any given Mormon.

Thanks for the input guys. Sounds like this is a real LDS Doctrine. I guess I'm still learning more and more about Mormonism even after leaving it. Still though, it seems like a cop-out and a freebie for me to get into the CK on based on the righteousness of my parents. Just doesn't make sense to me but neither does the rest of it which is why I'm no longer in. God Bless!

I did that when we had the discussion but they didn't know. They aren't the type to have source references on hand. They just know it. That's why I've come here to ask where you guys think they might have gotten this teaching from. My parents are in their mid 60s if you think that might be important.

Is it healthy for them to think that they now carry the burden and stress themselves out? I honestly don't know which is better. Besides I'm still not clear on if it even is a false doctrine. Do you have any input?

Thanks for the article. I did see one quote there that seems to support my parent's idea. Lorenzo Snow, "Preaching the Gospel in the Spirit World," in Brian H. Stuy (editor), Collected Discourses: Delivered by Wilford Woodruff, his two counselors, the twelve apostles, and others, 1868–1898, 5 vols., (Woodland Hills, Utah: B.H.S. Publishing, 1987–1989), 3:364. [Discourse given on 6 October 1893.] But that's a pretty obscure reference and I'm sure my parents have never read that. I'm still left wondering where they have gotten this.

Question for you guys I hope to get an answer on. I am a former devout Mormon (now resigned) and I came from a devout LDS family. Since leaving the church my parents have expressed that me leaving the church has put an extra level of responsibility on their shoulders. My parents claim that if they are even more righteous now they can invoke the sealing powers of the temple and bring their children into the Celestial Kingdom with them. It sounds like all that dynastic sealing stuff that went on in early church history. But I haven't heard anyone teach or talk about that stuff in recent days. Is this still a real LDS Doctrine? It just seems really unhealthy because they have taken an extra burden upon themselves and I can see the pressure is killing them. Especially since I'm their second child to leave the church. I'd like to know if you have any sources to show that this is a false doctrine. If so that would be great I think it would really lift that burden from their shoulders. Then again if it is a real LDS Doctrine that would be good to know also.

I came to the same conclusion after reading that Joel Johnson quote. It's not a primary source that's for certain and neither was Hyrum. Oh and by the way Coffee and tea are *not* part of the temple recommend questions. At least not today they may have been in the past but I don't know. The script question is

Yes, that would be awesome. Do you have any quotes like that for Coffee/Tea restriction?