Hala401
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Posts posted by Hala401
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Um, what about 1 Cor 13:12 12For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
Perhaps none of use understand this fully? Are we perhaps trying to fully explain things when we do not know the whole truth? I am content with waiting for God to present himself as he is when he is ready.
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As you know, I have been having on-going discussions with a friend at work about various Christian beliefs.
He is Trinitarian, and I proposed the following question to him, to which he did not have an answer, or his answer was "I don't know." I'm wondering if any of our Trinitarian friends here can help provide an answer.
The entire premise behind the Bible is that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. He is the promised Messiah of the Old Testament. God speaks from the heavens and says "This is my beloved Son: hear him." (Luke 9:35). "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son..." (John 3:16).
With my limited understanding of the Trinity I come away with 2 main points:
1. The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost is/are spirit, and has existed always just as they are. They cannot have offspring, because if they could there would be more than One God.
2. Since God is a spirit, He does not have a physical body of flesh and bones as we do, or as the resurrected Jesus did.
Assuming these 2 statements are true (my friend acknowledged they were), then, according to this belief, if God cannot have offspring, and does not have a physical body to provide genetics from, how is Jesus the Son of God?
Thank you for any input.
I hope that you do not mind my intrusion to this discussion, but this is of interest to me.
You are saying that God is a Spirit, so he does not have body? Can he not do as he wishes? Do we humans make rule book for God? I thought that Joseph Smith saw God and Jesus Christ?
In studies with Missionaries, I thought that we decided that there is God, Holy Spirit and Jesus Christ all three separate but in complete agreement with each other?
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I always find it interesting when someone converts to Islam. It must be a big change. Is your family Islamic or no? BTW, I was born here too.
It was such a confusing time. The church had thrown me out for some perceived sin, when I had actually not done a thing wrong. I knew I could not do anything else but that did not mean that I was going to do evil things.
I felt awful and lost. I had asked the jesus people for help and they hurt me instead. There is just a lot to the story that I no longer wish to talk about, but I was done with them and their "plastic Jesus", or thought so.
The first commandment was still stuck in my head. I could not escape it, no matter how I wanted to run. So, if you eliminate those who name the name of Jesus Christ, who is left? Why didn't I become a Jew? I have no idea. So, when I listened to a Muslim man say, "There is no God but Allah SWT", I knew that part was right.
In my mind I was screaming, "How can Jesus be real if his followers can treat me like they did?" It took me years for my hurt to dull enough to listen to reason. I became quite radical, and at one time if I had been treated well, could have done unspeakable things. The radical Muslims wanted 16 year old girls, they could control, not an old divorcee.
As time passed, I became much more moderate and devoted my time to volunteer work. So, in truth, it was the will of God that I spend the time as a Muslim, cooling off and learning to be devout, meek, obedient, compassionate and all those things that God wants from us.
At first, when I strayed into the Historical Center at Kirtland, I had no idea why I was there except I wanted to see the Temple across the street and up the hill. Weeks later, I took a tour of it, fearing that I might not ever get a chance to enter a temple again.
Those weeks starting in early March and ending around the first of June, were so uncertain, painful, wonderful, and healing. It was an emotional time for me and writing about it even now brings it back with great clarity.
Here I was a very observant Muslimah, entering into a place where there were those who believed in Jesus! What was I doing there? Even now, it does not always make sense to me. I was Muslim, what did I have in common with christians? The people of Jesus had hurt me, why would I let them do it again?
I have to think about what happened next, try to make sense of it.
Hala
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If its not clear why we are version 1, its because we are the ancient church just in modern times. :)
As time has gone by more and more was changed so that it is hard sometimes to see the ancient church in many Christian churches which is why they are various changed, (updated) versions. :)
I was thinking about that, and thank you, I have to agree with you.
If someone wants to dispute that, well, to me it is clear that after the crucifixion there was much turmoil. The Essenes and Gnostics were exterminated. I do not know who did it but I suspect that it was the same people who eventually founded the Catholic Church. In that same general period of 0-450 AD, Hypatia of Alexandra was also brutally murdered, and the library she was care taker of was burned. There is some thought that followers loyal to her took part of the library off to the desert and hid it. She did not have much to do with Christianity, but it shows the general mind set of the time.
OK, now I will say that we, the LDS are version 1.0 and the rest are degraded to versions 2-8.0. LOL
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Hala,
Maybe it is still in Beta.
-RM
You are all casting down my prejudices one by one.
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This is very hard to explain to people who dont understand our beliefs. We have an eternal perspective, or try to have, which is entirely different than a mortal life only perspective.
It continues to puzzle me why LDS call themselves Christians, but they are adamant about it, so I give up, I can not argue. So, as a way to cope with this, when I was still meeting with the Sister Missionaries in Kirtland, OH, I decided that the Christianity I originally came from was version 1.0, and the LDS are version 8.0, because the LDS, in my mind are nothing at all like the Christianity I grew up with.
In my mind, the LDS are in some ways more like Muslims, perhaps. I will not try to engage in deep eschatology with you but in some ways, LDS beliefs are deeply different from evangelical beliefs, and that has come clear in my conversations with the missionaries. I mean it, there are in my mind, profound and important differences.
If you study Calvanisim/Armenianisim and many of those basic beliefs, you will see the difference and I think it is good. Mashallah, I feel priveleged to be able to attend this forum and once again have someone to study and share with.
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masā' al-khayr Hala!
No discomfort here. My family is from Lebanon. My Arabic is just enough to have basic conversation but mashallah I can do at least that much lol!
I do very much so understand. And though we live here in America those behaviors/cultural differences carry on with us throughout our lives no matter where we are living. You know as well as I do what being submissive and obedient really means whether in your marriage or with spiritual leaders in our culture. Like you said the wearing of the Hijab is a sign that you are submissive to Allah and all it encompasses. It gives you a sense of comfort and in some ways makes it easier to be submissive. It's a constant reminder of what this person believes and their committment.
Well that's how I feel about my garments. Though if you passed me on the street from the outside you would never know that I am wearing it, but it's a constant reminder for me of the covenants I've made and the commandments I am to follow.
Humdulillāh that the Gospel has touched your life and that you are taking the steps. It will be a hard journey let me warn you. I can assure you your family... well I won't bring that part up but it will be hard. I'm not going to sugar coat it for you.
BTW, I never gave up my culture when I joined the church. NEVER will I give up the food!! So much of our faith is ingrained in our culture it's almost like the both are one. What you need to do is seperate them.
Your heritage is who you are and where you come from... your faith is where your heading and beyond.
Shukrah Jazillian. I am American; born and raised here. However my 6 years of being Muslim left a deep mark on me; a good one I think, and I would like to keep those things. I know that Muslims, Christians and Jews over there do not get along, but I think that is tribal feuding rather than pure Islam, I think. The trouble is shameful and makes Allah SWT sad, I think.
I still love Goat Shwarma, and Humus, Wallah! To not eat with the left hand and only with the right, even tearing the bread with one hand, for me was a constant reminder of who I was. I think the Halal/Haraam food rules got out of hand, because some of the Halal meat here in America is just awful. Still, the idea is there, and I respect that.
I respected and felt secure that my whole day was supposed to be ordered around Allah SWT. The Wudu (cleansing of the body), the morning prayer, and then the rest. The covering in public, the submission to God, and eventually to a husband, if it ever happened.
All this taught me and prepared me to be LDS. Many times in Islam, I thought about the significance of Isa PBUH (Jesus), and I never felt settled about it. Eventually, I knew that I could not solve the problem of the crucifixion on my own. I left it to God to lead me.
Here in Portland, they have been kind and gentle with me. They even let me continue to use my Arabi name. :) I had no idea what so ever that those first weeks in Kirtland would lead to this. Alhumduallah! (Thank God)
Ma Salaama
Hala
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JudoMinja: Thank you. It is relatively hard for a forceful person to arouse me to ire, but when it happens, I feel sad. Taking my Bishop's words to heart, I will ask God to search me. (PS 139:23). I still have much to learn.
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One thing, though, don't let Brigham Young's statement titter you over into extremism which, in bringing your heart up to extreme levels, causes you to neglect other important things in your life. Church is only one such thing, there is so much more, and things tend to jockey for positions of importance over time.
LOL, I was Muslim when I started this journey with the LDS Sisters, so things like polygamy did not concern me. It was easy to take the step from Muhammad PBUH to Joseph Smith and all that comes with it. At the time, as things developed, I wondered if I would wind up a sister wife, on some farm out in Idaho or something? Muslims practice polygamy, even in the USA, so it was not an issue for me.
It is later that I read the book of Jacob and it set me back for a time. Perhaps there are also similar admonishments in the Qur'an. But to be clear, I know that the Salt Lake LDS do not participate in polygamy. Those who do it number only about 3000 people who have been disfellowshipped.
Yes, I did live extremisim for a time in Islam, and now know better.
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Being submissive and obedient are both good things, but it doesn't give others the right to treat you with disrespect. You should always be respected.
Though this book Surrendered Wife is about married relationships I go back to this one part in the book often. Note I replaced "she" with "I".
Vulnerable where I use to be a nag
Trusting where I use to be controlling
Respectful where I use to be demeaning
Grateful where I use to be dissatisfied
Has faith where I once had doubt
When I think about the word submissive it brings to my mind the word criticism. Both these words make many feel uncomfortable as well as vulnerable. Both these words effectively take you out of your comfort zone. What I personally find interesting is when we put the word "constructive" before criticism the idea now of being critized doesn't seem as bad.
Being submissive is like releasing control and opening the mind to different ideas and the way of seeing things around us. Being submissive from a spiritual perspective (which I assume would be the direction your Bishop is coming from) might be to open your mind to the scriptures and the lessons.
Sorry I haven't read through all your post so not sure what culture you are from. Myself being from a middle eastern culture I can see where you are coming from when you hear these words. In many cultures the words submissive and obedient means something entirely different to those of other cultures. When a spiritual leader tells you to be more submissive and obedient in a culture/religion that by others may be viewed as oppressive well it doesn't translate the same to others.
I'm sure everything he is talking about has to do with the spiritual and not that you are to bow down and take crap from people.
BTW, get use to being asked about marriage. You're going to hear that a lot. Family and eternal marriage is very important to the LDS so your Bishop is going to bring it up.
As Salamu Alaykum
Wa Alaykom Salaam Sister: ! Wow, never did I expect this on LDS site! Wallah !
So, maybe you will understand the feeling that inspite of my becoming LDS, Islam and the culture will always be a part of me. I still feel the same about God (Allah SWT), and eat the same, and dress the same, minus Hijab. Though I still long for it at times, for the security and respect of it. The difference is that Jesus Christ died on the cross, and of course the atonement. The rest is much the same.
It is astonishing to me how loving the LDS are. I hope that will feel true in a few years.
Salaam
Hala
PS: You are of Middle Eastern descent? Would you share more? It is not my intention to make you uncomfortble.
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Oops, that's the reason I keep studying and like to discuss what I learn from others.
The study of genetics is advancing like a wild fire, especially since they learned how to do stem cells with out killing babies. And, from that they learned other things that changed the way people see genes. All sorts of things are being discovered so fast that I can not even begin to keep up with it. But, it is fun trying. :)
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"Genetically inferior", eh?
Amazing some of the scientific terms being used in the field today.
Well, I am not a scientist. I am a retired woman who reads a lot and wants to return to the Uni next year when it will be free for me. :)
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Are you sure you didn't read diverse instead of advanced? I'm wary of any article that talks of advanced genetics (regardless of where it may be pointing it at). There is the idea of complexity in genetics, and there is the concept of derived or ancestral traits but if we're talking advanced we better be talking about scientific techniques or something.
OK, here it is, um well some of it.
I must admit to a bias here. I am a white American of Northern European descent. However, in my travels to Kenya, Honduras, Israel, Thailand and Northern Canada, I lost my racial prejudice. This was doubly underscored with my experience in meeting numbers of extremely intelligent, educated African and Middle Eastern people while I was Muslim. So now, I have a suspicion that at the base level, non-Africans sometimes are more aggressive and barbaric than those who we used to accuse.
Gosh, I hate to use Fox News as a resource, but the article I found seems like it has information that should provide fodder for the beginnings of a good discussion.
My main goal in life is to be pleasing to God. That includes love of others, charity and all that and also education and knowlege that will produce understanding and compassion.
African Genetics Revisited: Europeans are genetically inferior to Africans – Rasta Livewire
I will keep looking.
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Are you sure you didn't read diverse instead of advanced? I'm wary of any article that talks of advanced genetics (regardless of where it may be pointing it at). There is the idea of complexity in genetics, and there is the concept of derived or ancestral traits but if we're talking advanced we better be talking about scientific techniques or something.
Well, you could be correct. I will attempt to find said article again, verify its contents and then share it here. There are more positions on any subject than there are people it seems sometimes. LOL And, sometimes data can be skewed to show what the investigator already beleives. Thank you for challenging me on this.
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I think what your Bishop meant here was submissiveness to God, not to mean people.
EDIT: Finally found the quote I was looking for. This is Brigham Young, wish an excellent definition of submission and how it relates to God.
Thank you. To be certain, after what I have experienced in the last few years, both consequences and mercy, submissiveness and obedience to God is like a veil before my eyes. I think that wearing the Niqab when I was Muslim, now helps me to put some physical substance into the idea.
So, far being with LDS, goodness, love and mercy have taken on new meaning for me. I have no one, and very little material goods, though my retirement income takes care of me. So, now seems like a God created opportunity to reach out to others, helping in any way that the Holy Spirit guides me.
The Bishop also asked me if I would accept a husband? I had not been prepared for that one! Wow! I never thought that would be posible.
Hala
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From my own point of view, the years have made me want to be really submissive and obedient to God, and those he places in authority around me. In a mostly upbeat meeting with my Bishop, he did mention that I need to work on being more submissive. It seemed to be a passing comment and not the focus of our meeting.
Wow, now, the next day, I am thinking about it. Do I understand submissiveness? I did tell a certain person who was being really forceful with me about tithing that he was a bully. I mean do I really have to take it when a male gets loud and finger pointy with me? I mean I was already intending to do as the scripture says. He was just so busy being authoritative that he ran me over, or I felt like it.
That's the only incident I can think of where I got willful. Oh, did tell a couple women that were gossiping with me to stop it. I don't know, maybe I lack something in my own delivery?
Much peace
Hala
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Hi there:
I just found out that there is a profile page and since this forum feels safe enough, I went in and added some things. It now reflects my correct city, and some of my weirdness.
Hopefully, not too strange.
So, to those three who looked before, you will see the truth now. :)
Hala
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I thought about Dr. Peterson as well. He has a great respect for the Q'ran, and even goes so far as to say parts of it may be divinely inspired. If there's anyone who could give you good advice on how to proceed, it would be him.
No idea how to get in touch with him. Maybe through the Maxwell Institute at [email protected].
Welcome to the forum!
Thank you. I take the wide view of faith in 1 Cor 13, and in the book of Hebrews. So for me, and perhaps necessary for me, Islam was a bridge to the LDS.
In Islam, I found the worship of one God that the first commandment demands. I also found personal modesty, and the protection of my Hijab. The admonishment to pray 5 times a day, kept my mind focused on Allah SWT (Allah is merely the Arabic translation for the word God, and not another God)
Interestingly, Muslims believe in Jesus (Isa PBUH), the virgin birth, the miracles, and his return to bring order. But for reasons unclear to me, do not believe in the crucifixion. I think the answer to that comes from the book of Nicodemus (I think) where The Christ is not murdered but take up by God, and the people are deceived to think he was Jesus. This is not a doctrine that I advance, but merely an explanation about why Muslims believe as they do.
As Muslim, I had to accept that the Qur'an was given to Muhammad PBUH by angels sent by God. So for me, when the Sister Missionaries kidnapped me :) it was not a long step to believe in Joseph Smith as a prophet, and the book of Mormon as a divinely inspired book.
As a Christian, I always questioned the idea that the Bible was a "closed" book. Later I saw that it was not and the admonishment to not add or take away from this book, was solely applied to the book of Revelation.
So now, I believe in Joseph Smith as a prophet, the book of Mormon as inspired by God and that the LDS Church is the Church of Jesus Christ. The office of the First Presidency is deliberating on my application for baptisim, though I have no idea when approval will be given.
My greatest love in life is talking about God, his word and his people. I have vowed to never say no to God, and endeavor to follow the promptings of the Holy Spirit, where ever they take me, and I must say that it has been interesting already!
The missionaries keep telling me that once I am baptised that the Holy Spirit will really come for me. I wonder what that will be like?
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Welcome! I think there is truth everywhere and whatever continues to 'anchor' you to your faith and your roots will only strengthen you in your quest to find God's path for you.
I hope we can continue to help you on your search and learning journey!
Thank you. I am a white, of distant European origin, but through Islam, and a Christian missionary trip to Kenya, I found "Blacks" to be dignified and as intelligent as any other race. I had been raised in a very prejudiced family, and the healing of my mind to other races has been a long journey in its self.
In fact, in reading an article on the study of human genetics, it said that the homo sapiens living in sub-Saharan Africa are the most genetically advanced on earth. This makes me chuckle a little, because I know people who would be really upset by that. However, it will probably take a very long time for the effects of that phenomenon to play out.
Much peace
Hala
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Thank you all for your very kind welcome. Yes, I am from Oregon. I did not intend for anyone to think that I am Middle Eastern because of my Islam. I am American and was Muslim for only about 5 years. Before that I had been fundamentalistic christian for 30+ years, but many things about the doctrine and practices bothered me. Finally, I had a personal problem (which I will not discuss) and was thrown out. So, it is not like I was so great, and successful.
I had always studied the Bible a lot, and when the Christians got rid of me, I still searched for a way to worship God. In Islam, I found people who worshiped one God. They also believed that once we asked God (Allah SWT) for forgiveness, it is over. Your sins are forgotten. That is something that the Christians did not practice.
So, now I am on a new journey with people who, so far as I can tell, really do seek to follow the will of God. I wonder where this will end?
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Hello:
I was a practicing Muslim when the Holy Spirit led me to talk to Mormon Sisters. It has been months since I started this journey and at times I am quite astonished at God's persistence in dealing with me.
One thing that really draws me to the LDS is their unfailing love of others, even those who are not LDS. It is clear, and unmistakable. I am greatly humbled by it and still confused.
No, my name is not Hala, but this protects me. I was Muslim, and at times I wonder if I will ever entirely stop, for it is through Islam that God got my attention and began to show me obedience to his will. Had there never been Islam, I doubt that there would ever have been the book of Mormon for me.
Please, I do not come as a deceiver but I just want to talk to other Mormons. I work with Missionaries, but they are not always available.
Much peace
Hala
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Id imagine that such will get an opportunity to choose whichever path, and would be able to get the blessings of such.... No idea for sure on that tho.
In my years of researching public awareness of these issues, I see a lot of growth and change. To be clear, I am not speaking of the Gay/Lesbian issue, but of Intersex/transgender issues, which are clearly very separate. I have spoken with intersex people who have no physical drives at all.
In my experience, the LDS seem to do a better job of treating these things in a compassionate manner than most I have talked to, though some Muslims, due to the structure of their society do very well at times. It does, of course depend upon individual circumstances.
I think to mistreat those we do not understand makes us less human, and to say that we understand that which we do not makes us less Godly.
Hala
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Thank you. I have spent a lot of time talking to the LDS, and one day may get wet. LOL In terms of my spirituality, they seem to be like no other group of people I have examined, and I sometimes wonder if they will be the tide that turns the battle back to the original teachings of The Christ.
There is still a lot to be learned and understood, and I do agree that sexual activity outside of marriage is not constructive, if we assume that the purpose of said activity is to insure the survival of the species. I am caught between compassion for those who do not fit, and the desire to be pleasing to God.
I am happy that were I ever to become LDS, I would not face the responsibilities of the priesthood.
Hala
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Hi:
I am brand new here and came here looking for wisdom on various LDS policies. The reply refers to your question about Inter-sex individuals.
I was recently told that one line of thinking about Intersex people who live as opposite their assigned birth gender, is that their spirit was that gender and that is what they seek. This from a Medical Doctor with understanding of holistic medicine. While I am most aquainted with conventional Western Medicine, this whole Inter-sex/transgender area has been extremely painful to those affected by it.
To fill in a little vocabulary, in conventional circles, those with XY chromosomes are generally considered male, and those with XX chromosomes are considered female. Especially in the last decade, since the study of genetics has rapidly increased, most researchers have come to understand that XX and XY represent opposite ends of a spectrum with thousands of combinations between.
Inter-sexed people have variations in their chromosomes that "smear" their genetics, making their gender presentation unclear to various degrees at times. 46,XX/46, XY causes hermaphroditisim and there are thousands of other combinations. In addition, there are XY individuals who have a damaged Y, and are sometimes said to have PAIS or AIS.
For far too long religious institutions have been inexcusably ignorant of the ramifications of these conditions and have meted out horrific punishments for them. In my opinion, the LDS are better than most, but have a ways to go, even now.
I am not mentioning Gay or Lesbians, though in time I think that we will find a genetic problem there. This is strictly about the Inter-sexed, some of whom are transgender-ed.
I do hope that this helps the discussion. This was an LDS Doctor that I was talking to.
Hala
Son of God?
in LDS Gospel Discussion
Posted
The LDS tend toward, watzat word? Henotheisism? Yes, well, I will have been investigating them for about 10 months and I have seen no hint of anything but one God. By the language of your post, you are not LDS are you? How did you get in here?
So, I just love investigating disinformation about the LDS, and actually what they believe is suprisingly simple and reasonable to me. I am not an LDS member yet, so I don't have to be nice. LOL
The multi God thing was one of my first questions and here is roughly the explanation I got. One of you Missionaries correct me if I get it wrong OK?
The idea is, for sake of simplicity, Humans are at level 3, just right above the Angels, and Animals. Lets say that God is at level 100. Someday when we leave this life, if we have pleased God, we will be raised to level 5 from 3. In an eon or so as we continue to improve and become more pleasing to God, we will attain level 8. But in the mean time, God has gone to level 200. One day we may be at level 100 but by then God will be at level 1000. So, we improve and so does God and we never catch him.
This I can go with because Lucifer, the Shaitun, the devil wanted to be like the most high God. In my opinion we will never be equal with God. Isaiah 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
I used to be an evangelical, and it bothered me, and then they threw me out. So, searching for the one God, I became Muslim. Islam was better than my old Christianity, until I ran into the LDS.
Maybe you should go to an LDS church a few times; talk with the missionaries; watch how they treat each other?
Sorry to be snarky, but I like them a lot, and maybe one day I will be LDS.