JoshuaFKon

I said I was "giving up" for a couple of days once...lisajo, Do you know what a negitave, nit-picking person is? Josh B)

I know bragging is bad...but I couldn't help it! It wasn't really...."bragging" actually...more like a happy observation. Josh

Well, If I'm a "freak show"....at least I'm the best "freak show" I can be... This is the most views EVER you'll notice :) Josh B)

B) Well to tell you the truth, I had a hard time reading it myself...but He seems to be saying that Although Facsimile No.2 clearly does not translate as Joseph Smith said, it could be argued that Facsimile No.2 is a distortion of the Book of Abraham, and Joseph Smith, by revelation "saw" back and "translated" the original version correctly. As I said, I don't really want to agrue about right now...but I do have some problems with that theory. Josh B) By the way, how did you upload that pic under your name?

I feel very cool B) Thank you for the link...(which I just read) Are you saying you agree with that author? Josh B)

Oh, well I'm sure you trust it more then you trust me...... :) Josh Like the robot?...or is it too much? My Thread is now the most viewed thread on the Gospel Disscussion Board! Josh B)

Lol....ok, ok...... josh B) Thanks, I needed that.... Josh B) P.S. I found a link about the Book of Joseph on what I believe is an offical LDS site http://search.ldslibrary.com/articles/5288...esis%2050:24-38

Desiré, The Book of Joseph, was the other scroll found with the Book of Abraham, Joseph Smith identified it as the Book of Joseph (of Egypt) However, he died before he got the chance to translated it. The pictures discribed in it match the other papyrus scroll re-discovered with the book of Abraham. I will get them up as soon as possible but, since I'm sure someone would argue about it...I just don't feel up to arguring right now.... josh

Ray, Thanks for your post, I'll answer as soon as I can...but I just found out my Dad is being taken to Philidelphia for more tests....So it may be quite some time before I can answer. Thanks Josh

Ofcourse we did. Today was too easy without you. I almost took a whole day off the foroms myself. Lol...well I'll be back on as soon as I can.... :) It was scary last night at 2 in the morning...but He's doing fine. Thank you, appreciate that :) Me not like you?! You're one of my favorite people on this site! :) I really mean that. ( of course it would be nice if you read my posts) I didn't think that was possible. As long as the answers make sense...I'm a reasonable person (I hope) You too Desiré :) Josh B)

Hello everyone :) Sorry I havn't been on today, I'm sure you all missed me.... My Dad was taken to the Hospital Last Night....(He's doing fine now, and all the tests are good so far. I don' t think anything was wrong...but better to be on the safe side ) So we decied to come home from vacation early, So I've been driving, and unpacking all day. A happier piece of news is someone answered one of my questions to my satisfation, and so I have removed it from my site. See: http://joshuafkon.googlepages.com/josephsm...#39;sprophicies "This Questions was answered to my satisfaction by Justin of http://justinodhans.googlepages.com (a pro-mormon site) Finding Treasure in Salem, Massachusetts" Josh B) of course I'm still waiting for answer on the Book of Abraham....

The answers I'm "fishing for" are ones that make sense. If you think you are a reasonable person. Post the "answers" I have recieved and I will show you why I don't like them. I'll even let you have the last word after I answer. Josh B) Josh B) Mrs S., If you list the references here I will read them

hello :) I hope I can answer all your questions.... Poetic Justice?....lol :) Good Question, the Jews actually only had one “Temple” This was where the “presence” of God dwelt. When Jesus was crucified the curtain of the temple was ripped in two because God no longer dwelt in the temple. Also, Early Christians worshiped in houses. Consider also what Paul said: “The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in shrines made by man,” Well two points to that, Some Christian denominations Do have prophets. And while most do not have “official” prophets, we do believe in the Gift of Prophecy. We just don’t make it “official” I would say there is no “right” Church, I believe Mormons are Christians, and most other denominations are as well…all these Christians make-up “The Body of Christ” I base my faith on the Bible, not on a certain denomination, I’m sure they all have some areas where they are wrong. If you want to learn about Christ and His Gospel…depend on the Bible. Well…not being all of these things I can’t really say, but I’ll tell you want I think. First of all, all these denominations are “Christian” I don’t agree with everything they say, but they’re all Christians. Baptists don’t believe in speaking in tongues or dancing. Lutherans….I don’t know. Pentecostals believe in speaking in speaking in tongues, healing, etc…Calvinist have some strange beliefs about salvation…I really can’t speak for them. For your first question, I don’t know. I will try and research it for you. As for your second question, Most Christian denominations do not believe you need to be baptized to be saved. I would say “saved” means your sins are forgiven. As for whether a mass murderer would go to the same heaven, I remind you of Jesus’ parable about the people who agree go out into a field and work for a certain amount of money, and all throughout the day other people come and start to work with them…and at the end of the Day Jesus gives them all the same amount of money. Now I’m not saying you aren’t rewarded for your good works…remember Jesus speaks of “saving up treasures in heaven” I would say they would all go to heaven, but some will more “treasure” in heaven. Thanks, Josh B)

Well first of all thank you for going to my site, Secondly, I'm sorry you believe my site is Anti-Mormon, I am not trying to be completely objective in my site, however I try to be polite and I have many links to the best pro-mormon sites. I have of course put the burden of proof on Mormonism, I am not trying to prove it is true, because I am not a mormon. I posted what I thought were the six biggest problems that I saw with Mormonsim, and then I asked for answers. Does this make my questions less valid? Why don't you answer them?' Josh B)

Believe what you want....I'm tired of defending myself. But do you dare to try and answer my questions? Josh B)

Me hard on her?! the person who wouldn't even read my post? don't go to my site, I don't care.... You may think my questions are "ridiclous" that is your opinion, but how am I "misrepresenting" myself? I will talk to Catholics later...I wonder if they are more reasonable....? Answered them on the Christian Beliefs thread...but I like that "Christian with answers" maybe I'll change my user name...... God bless, Josh B)

If I doubted that...those would be my first questions... Josh B)

hello :) I hope I can answer all your questions.... Poetic Justice?....lol :) Good Question, the Jews actually only had one “Temple” This was where the “presence” of God dwelt. When Jesus was crucified the curtain of the temple was ripped in two because God no longer dwelt in the temple. Also, Early Christians worshiped in houses. Consider also what Paul said: “The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in shrines made by man,” Well two points to that, Some Christian denominations Do have prophets. And while most do not have “official” prophets, we do believe in the Gift of Prophecy. We just don’t make it “official” I would say there is no “right” Church, I believe Mormons are Christians, and most other denominations are as well…all these Christians make-up “The Body of Christ” I base my faith on the Bible, not on a certain denomination, I’m sure they all have some areas where they are wrong. If you want to learn about Christ and His Gospel…depend on the Bible. Well…not being all of these things I can’t really say, but I’ll tell you want I think. First of all, all these denominations are “Christian” I don’t agree with everything they say, but they’re all Christians. Baptists don’t believe in speaking in tongues or dancing. Lutherans….I don’t know. Pentecostals believe in speaking in speaking in tongues, healing, etc…Calvinist have some strange beliefs about salvation…I really can’t speak for them. For your first question, I don’t know. I will try and research it for you. As for your second question, Most Christian denominations do not believe you need to be baptized to be saved. I would say “saved” means your sins are forgiven. As for whether a mass murderer would go to the same heaven, I remind you of Jesus’ parable about the people who agree go out into a field and work for a certain amount of money, and all throughout the day other people come and start to work with them…and at the end of the Day Jesus gives them all the same amount of money. Now I’m not saying you aren’t rewarded for your good works…remember Jesus speaks of “saving up treasures in heaven” I would say they would all go to heaven, but some will more “treasure” in heaven. Thanks, Josh B)

Desiré I'm sorry you think you're defending your faith just for my amusement. That is not the case. But I will agree with you on one point Although you are almost as good! So close I amost think you are the same people... you mean...from people who argee with you.... Josh

I will read Nibley's Book as soon as I can, However, you realize that the scroll you don't believe was the correct scroll was actually "attached" to Facsimlely No.1? Also I will address the "Missing Red and Black Scroll" Theory, which I think is pretty close to what you're saying. The red and black scroll theory bascially says that Joseph Smith had more than the Two Scrolls...the Book of Abraham and the Book of Joseph. The “Missing Black and Red Scroll” Theory This, I believe was the fist attempt to prove, (and perhaps an acknowledgment) that the Book of Abraham could not have come from the re-discovered scrolls. This theory says that we are not looking at the correct scrolls, Dr. Nibley created this theory in his article, “Judging and Prejudging the Book of Abraham,” He said: “…The fact is that the manuscripts at present in the possession of the church represent only a fraction of the Joseph Smith papyri. As President Joseph F. Smith stood in the front doorway of the Nauvoo House with some of the brethren in 1906, the tears streamed down his face as he told how he remembered ‘as if it were yesterday,’ his ‘Uncle Joseph,’ down on his knees on the floor with Egyptian Manuscripts spread out all around him, peering at the strange writings and jotting things down in a little green notebook with the stub of a pencil. When one consider that the eleven fragments now in our possession can easily be spread out on the top of small desk, without the straining of the knees, back, and dignity, it would seem that what is missing is much more than what we have.” So was born the “Missing Black and Red Scroll” theory But there are problems with this theory. Two pages later, in the History of the Church, at the end of the same entry in which “Joseph Smith’s” description was given, a footnote by B.H. Roberts points out that the wording for the entire entry was not actually Joseph Smith’s, it had only been written to appear so. Instead, the article had been adapted from a letter written by Oliver Cowdery published in the Messenger and Advocate. Cowdery, in turn, had developed his wording from a published placard provided by Michael Chandler. The placard quoted remarks made by persons in Philadelphia who were describing the appearance of the papyrus collection as a whole, and not any specific scroll that Joseph Smith would later identify as the Book of Abraham. Also, even is we discount there is no reason to believe there were more than two rolls of papyrus, It is clear that all the Church ever possessed were “Two rolls of papyrus” (i.e. “The writings of Abraham and Joseph” How is this clear? Let’s look at some comments of Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery concerning the papyri: “On the 3d of July, Michael H. Chandler cam to Kirtland to exhibit some Egyptian Mummies. There were four human figures, together with some two or more rolls of papyrus covered with hieroglyphic figures and deices. (History of the Church, Vol. 2, p. 235, emphasis added.) And, “Soon after this, some of the Saints at Kirtland purchased the mummies and papyrus…and with W.W. Phelps and Oliver Cowdery as scribes, I commenced the translation…and much to our joy found that one of the rolls contained the writings of Abraham, another, the writings of Joseph of Egypt…(Ibid., p. 236, emphasis added.) Before inferring that by the use of the words “two or more rolls of papyrus” Smith meant there were other rolls, we should carefully examine Oliver Cowdery’s statements as they appeared (with Joseph Smith’s direction and approval) in the Messenger and Advocate: “Upon the subject of the Egyptian records, or rather the writings of Abraham and Joseph, I may say a few words. This record is beautiful written on papyrus with black, and a small part red, ink or paint, in perfect preservation. (Cowdery, op. cit., emphasis added.) And also, “On opening the coffins he discovered that in connection with two of the bodies, were something rolled up with the same kind of linen, saturated with the same bitumen, which when examined probed to be two rolls of papyrus, previously mentioned. I may add that two or three other small pieces of papyrus, with astronomical calculations, epitaphs, &c. were found with other of the mummies [b/] . (Ibid, emphasis added) Cowdery proves that there were two, and only two, “rolls of papyrus,” which he believed, because of Joseph Smith’s identification of them, were “the writings of Abraham and Joseph, “though there were also a few fragments “similar to the astronomical representation” [i.e. Facsimile No. 2] With the papyri. –“By his own hand upon papyru”s p. 133 If I had my scanner I think I could prove that at least the Book of Joseph is not really a "Book of Joseph"

Well Ray, "It was clear that Smith had once owned these papyri because the back of the papyrus fragments were pasted down to paper with "drawings of a temple and maps of the Kirtland, Ohio area." There was also an affidavit from Emma Smith that these papyri had been in the possession of Joseph Smith." From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Abrah...papyrus_scrolls No one (incuding the Mormons) debate that these papyrus belonged to Joseph Smith. Josh B)

ok...hold on I'll try and find a website.... Josh Here you go Ray, http://www.irr.org/mit/pjs11.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Abrah...ph_Smith_papyri Let me know if you need more.... Josh B)

Hi Ray, I wish I could show you the Egyptian Characters, But I don’t have my scanner with me…If you would like to see them I would be happy to post them on Sunday. I also would like to point out that this translation is not disputed by Mormons. Everyone agrees this is what the scroll says. Correct Translation of Egyptian Characters: “The, This” Joseph Smith’s Book of Abraham Translation: 11. Now, this priest had offered upon this altar three virgins at one time, who were the daughters of Onitah, one of the royal descent directly from the loins of Ham. These virgins were offered up because of their virtue; they would not bow down to worship gods of wood or of stone, therefore they were killed upon this altar, Correct Translation of Egyptian Characters: “pool” Joseph Smith’s Book of Abraham Translation: And it was done after the manner of the Egyptians. 12. And it came to pass that the priests laid violence upon me, that they might slay me also, as they did those virgins upon this altar, I will refer you to the representation at the commencement of this record. I could give you more, But I think you get the idea, It’s not even close. As for how it differs from the Bible, Listen to late Apostle Bruce R. McConkie who once said, the Book of Abraham: “…contains priceless information about the gospel, pre-existence, the nature of Deity, the creation, and priesthood – information which is not otherwise available in any other revelation now extant.” I could give you specific examples if you want. Also, if you'll refer to page 8 of this thread, I have posted the Fascimile No. 1 Josh B)

Pretty much yes Yes, that's what I'm saying again yes. Ok....It will take me I while to get all that info...I'll post again when I have it. not quite....hold you, you'll see Josh B)

Isn't Truth, for the sake of truth, a worthy goal in and of itself? Besides, if you're right...why would I want to lose a level in heaven? Josh B)