Cal

Peace and Paul----Oh that's right, the BoM is true because God said it was....and he said that to...JS, the author of the BoM. Now that is circular reasoning at its best. Usually before people decide to believe something you examin the claimant for indicia of crediblity. Juries are allowed to examine witness for evidence of credibility before deciding who to believe. Why is this? Because rational people are too smart to be the doops for every religion's story line. So the real issue is, 'was JS's story credible'? I doubt that you to have ever really considered the issue. Anti has brought up one of MANY points that call JS's story into question. When subjected to actual study and consideration JS's credibility is left wanting. Even that 3 witnesses story is weird. If the "plates" were real then why did the witness describe them as being see with their "spiritual" eyes. Who needs spiritual eyes to see what is plainly real? No one seems to need "spiritual" eyes to see the Papyrus that JS claims to have used to translate the Book of Abraham. And considering the fact that Moroni or Nephi or who ever it was supposed to be didn't know that the Native Americans of the western fronteir WEREN'T Jews makes the story even more suspect. On top of that JS claimed there was a religious revival in 1820. Factually, there was none, thereby throwing the rest of his supposed timeline into disarray. The fact that JS lied about polygamy, and that he had a history of deceiving people into believing he could uncover buried treasure with a rock adds even more doubt to his credibility. The fact that JS would send missionaries off to England, and then steal their wives shows what kind of character he really had. And this is jsut the tip of JS's iceberg of non-crediblity. Peace you seem to imply that those of us who question the origins of the Mormon church are somehow going to be punished by your God. What just God would start a religion based on lies, give a person a rational mind, and then punish him for using it to uncover the truth of the big lie?

Peace---where did you get the idea that I "thought so much of men" or their FEEBLE ideas. I certainly don't think much of YOUR feeble ideas. By the way, GBH is a man, what do you think of his FEEBLE ideas? BY was a man, what do you think of his FEEBLE ideas? Hey, even JS was a man, I think I know what you think of his FEEBLE ideas. Come to think of it, exactly which man's arm of flesh DO you rely on. If I'm not mistaken, everything you seem to believe in came from SOME man originally.

Peace--by the way, the JS translation of the Bible has been shown to contain many of the same translational errors that the King James version has. How do you explain that JS missed things that were clear errors? If it's SO inspired, how come God didn't inspire JS to correct many mistranslations---like the meaning of the word "virgin" in the old testament.

Peace----ahhh yes, that deep understanding you get that you can never explain to anyone. Pray tell, how is anyone supposed to believe you when you can't communicate it? With that technique one can claim to know ANTHING at all and put himself above rational inquiry. What a nice place to live.......some of us call it LA LA land. By the way, the "spirit" just told me that you've got it all wrong....that the Seventh Day Adventists are the real true Church. Can you prove me wrong?

Peace----yeah, I agree...it is all about faith----most of the time blind. Any discussion ends when you refuse to actually discuss the point raised and respond by, "well, you just have to have the Spirit". As far as I am concerned that is a big cop out----a way to avoid logical discussion. Besides where is the credibility in that sort of argument....lots of people in lots of religions claim to know things by the "spirit" that are totally contrary to what you believe. So whose "spirit" is right? AFD--I see we are getting closer to communicating However, the last part of your comment seems to imply that non-mormons think they won't be able to recognize eachother as family members in the hereafter so as to hangout together. Is that what you meant to say?

Cal, Just because faithful Mormons bear their faith promoting stories in which they feel something was not a coincidence-- doesn’t necessarily make their account true and valid from a full perspective not available to their view. Mormons typically want to be a positive people and express grateful hearts in a spirit of thankfulness and this often means that blessings are attributed to God by such and such means whether they really were or not. Remember, we live and walk by faith and not by sight-- we cannot see the whole picture but are creatures of limited view. We just want to be happy in our God... As far as Moroni is concerned; you will see him at the judgment bar of God when things will not be well with you because you ridiculed and rejected the prophets and the Book of Mormon. I’m glad I won’t be in your sorry shoes. What are you going to do then? Paul O

As far as "many precious" things taken out of the bible, as far as JS's translation, there is "precious little" that changes the overall doctrines or message in the bible. As far as the BoM clarifying anything, the overall BoM reads like a duplication of the Bible, and the only controversies resolved are pretty much issues that were being hotly debated in the New England relgious community of the times.

Traveler....the word "hate", nor the feeling, is in my vocabulary. I enjoy debate and discussion for its own sake, and is not meant to be taken personally. If I find what I think is illogical in a person's responses, I may seem to attack the response, but I bear no ill feeling toward anyone of any religion on this board. I find many of your postings informative and well considered. I find others hard to follow without making a lot of questionable assumptions. Be that as it may, your previous posting where you address me as though I had said something about being created in God's image mystifies me a little. I don't remember addressing that issue in THIS thread. What were you refering to? Regarding atrocities perpetuated in the name of religion, I'm sure those that committed the MM massacre thought they were doing so in the name of God, as other religious acts of 'rightousness'. Religious fanaticism has been one of the great social plagues that humans have brought on themselves. If you are going to single out Trinitarianism, you might as well get even more "sweeping" and condemn Christianity as a whole, as well as many other authoritarian religions. The root of much of religious violence on its neigbors has its roots in the age old "us against them" mentality that is found even in other primate and even lower mammalian societies. It's a way of preserving the integrity of a social group against the threat of extinction from outside groups. It's an evolutionary protection mechanism for survival. It is no big surprise that it survives in many modes, shapes and forms in societies today. Religous separatism is just another way for a social group to promote itselt and insure survival. This separatistic trait of groups gives rise to all kinds of conflict and animocities between people. As we have come so far technologically, we have yet to catch up in our social evolution. IOW, we are still behaving a lot like the cavemen we once were.

Anti--you make a very good point about how mormons use "proof". You hear all these faith promoting stories whose purpose is clearly to say "see, there is proof that the LDS church is true". You are correct that the church is desperate to vindicate JS and his stories and the BoM. The LDS church is also desperate to maintain a modicum of credibility with the intellectual world. The church didn't adopt FARMS so that it could say "we don't need proof", you don't need intellectuals to accomplish that goal. Right, Peace? You really can't have it both ways. You can't say "we don't need proof", and then claim that the BoM is a second witness of Christ. Who needs a second witness if you don't need proof in the first place? Totally disingenuous.

While we are on the Cumorah topic---diverging a little. I was just on a thread talking about all these blessing that come from tithing, and stories of how COINCIDENCE is not really coincidence in the mormon church. So, since coincidence isn't really coincidence in the mormon church, then I quess it isn't coincidence that on a map, available to JS at the time he wrote the BoM, off the coast of western africa you find the CAMOROS islands whose capital is MORONI. Since that can't be coincidence, according to mormons, then the only logical conclusion is that JS scammed these terms to include in his fabrication called the Book of Mormon.

It isn't something you can understand without the Spirit. Seriously...it is 'high' knowledge and understanding. Again...you won't understand it without some of the knowledge gained in the temple coupled with the Spirit.. I already taught you the 'principle' of blessings. Do you give your kids rewards when they disobey you? Matt. 12: 46 ¶ While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him. 47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee. 48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? 49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! 50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother. Also Lukes rendition of this same event and doctrine: 19 Then came to him his mother and his brethren, and could not come at him for the press. 20 And it was told him by certain which said, Thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to see thee. 21 And he answered and said unto them, My mother and my brethren are these which hear the word of God, and do it.

Peace---I find your use of the word "eternity" massively confusing. Why use a word whose common meaning is "without end" and use it in a way that no person familiar with the proper use of the word would understand. All I can say is you must worship a God who uses "smoke and mirrors" to communicate with his children. Regarding the "ring" analogy---just where DOES a ring begin if it is NOT endless as you imply? Actually, I find all this pure non-sense. It has no real meaning to anyone but the confused mind of Joseph Smith. Let's say that you are correct about after the ressurrection, does it say anywhere in the scriptures that families can't hang out together within the kingdoms they dwell in according to your interpretation of heaven? After all, if someone and his family chose not to join the LDS church and not get married in the mormon temple, but are otherwise good, honorable people, according to LDS people, they will all be in the Terrestrial kingdom anyway right? So they can all hangout together and be one big happy family right? Also, lets say I'm the only person in my whole family that choses to join the mormon church (even with all the baptism for the dead stuff), that means that my whole family can be together in the Terretrial kingdom (assuming again that they are good people) and here I am stuck in the Celestial kingdom with nothing to do but make babies and create solar systems, and meanwhile, my whole family is having a great time, partying it up in the Terrestrial, and sending me letters about what a good time they are having without me right?

AFD, I have to apologize, I didn't see the question you are refering to--I must have missed the posting or read over it too quickly---would you mind telling me what the question was? I wasn't avoiding it. I promise to give you the best answer I can.

estump---why would you admire unabashed blind, gullible belief that requires no more mental activity than to believe anything you hear without rational scrutiny? Peace said: Why would proof not edify? Clearly you believe that the good fortune is the result of your obedience to God right? Are you saying that good fortune is NOT the result of you obedience? You clearly imply it in all your LAW OF THIS AND LAW OF THAT. By the way, since you seem to believe in LAW, including physics, tell me about the laws of physics that would allow the Brother of Jared and his clan to survive a journey in the kind of ocean-going vessels described in the Book of Ether in the BoM.

Paul O, So the LDS Church is not based on facts? So I quess it doesn't matter whether JS's story is factual or not, huh? As long as he made the claim, that is good enough for you, right? Your position can be described in one word.... GULLIBLE.

If it isn't proof for the fact that God makes stuff happen in response to tithing in the Mormon church, then why would it be edifying? Are you saying that it doesn't tend to prove anything? Maybe we actually agree that it doesn't, and that random events of good fortune happen all the time, and when they happen to coincide with tithe paying, Mormons feel edified? I guess what I am saying is, if the good fortune ISN'T the result of tithe paying, why WOULD you feel edified?

Peace---so let me get this straight. You think that relatives can hangout together in your "spirit world", but not after the resurrection? Secondly---in an above posting your quoted JS as saying....."but Joseph Smith once taught there was about 5 billion something years in an eternity." An "eternity" is 5 billion years? 5 billion years has an END! Are you saying eternities have ENDS? Actually, my definition of eternity is ..... the time it takes two confused minds like Peace and AFD to make sense out of the world they were born into.

Also, don't forget to read in the Book of Ether where the brother of Jared built these "submarines" with holes in the top and bottom. Try to envision a trip in this craft---try not to get sea sick thinking about it, if you can imagine that such a trip is survivable at all. Also, try to imagine that millions of inhabitants, all of Jewish decent left NO genetic markers in the Native American population who are supposed to be their decendents.

I'm glad that one less child has to go without food this year. And of course, more "proof" that the gospel is true. And we need all the proof we can get since the massive weight of evidence proves it isn't.

correction---I meant to say "Mohammed's God" in the last posting.

Peace--you felt your bones come together and mend. And this proves what? I guess it prove whatever you WANT it to prove. I suppose it proves to you that YOUR GOD came down and healed you. How do you know that it wasn't that Mohammed, or some other God took pity on you and decided to heal you?

Peace--You and AFD need to get your stories straight. AFD thinks that non-mormon families can be together in the hearafter and you think they can't. By the way, those scriptures and quotes you gave say nothing about my question. DC only says that in order to be married in the hearafter you have to be married by the priesthood here. What does being married have to do with hanging out together? The fact that you and AFD have different views on this points out something I have noticed about Mormon doctrine---it doesn't really exists. Talk to any Mormon, or even read different GA talks and statements, and you get a bunch of conflicting ideas. No one seems to actually know the answers to these questions, inspite of claiming that the Mormons have all these ANSWERS for the the POOR CATHOLICs and the like. I guess it just goes to show that Mormonism is just another man-made religion, like the rest.

AFD--fine, I'll accept that Mormons believe that non-mormons can be with their families forever. Now, tell me why the Mormon church makes such a big deal about families being together when everyone else believes it too!

Anti--you don't even have to go that far to prove it is "fanciful tale". JS's narrative of the events leading up to the BoM cast considerable doubt and strain credulity to the limit when considered in total. One of the primary knock out blows is the fact that JS's own Angel Moroni refered to the Native Americans of the then frontier (now the east and midwest) as the Lamanites of the BoM. Genetic studies of these tribes leave no doubt that they are of North East Asian decent (Siberia) and have no roots in Hebrew origins. In fact, no american native tribes have any genetic roots in the middle east. But the main point is that the ones MORONI said were Lamanites, defininitely are NOT. That is enough misinformation to ruin JS's crediblility is my eyes.