raven2
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Posts posted by raven2
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What an amazing moment. Two of the world’s religious leaders meeting for the first time and building on common ground.
I think the apostles and prophet are in safe hands for this historic event.
Hopefully this meeting strengthens the opportunity to continue working on efforts that revolve around common goals and objectives for the benefit of Heavenly Fathers children.
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On 9/29/2018 at 11:59 AM, Carborendum said:
Wording is everything.
Multiple people from different wards in three states I know of have all told me that someone spoke with their bishop about concealed carry in their wards. The bishop was fine with them.
HOWEVER, I believe that the Church has taken measures to satisfy the requirements of the State of Utah to prohibit carry within the walls of the churches. That same action is not sufficient in other states. Texas, for example, requires a bit more to prohibit carry at church. And the Church has made no efforts to tell the leadership in the many states to "perform whatever measures are required" to legally prohibit the same in their buildings.
Or maybe the church expect/ hopes that members of the church will respect and follow its position not to bring guns to church builds. Even if they have not complied with ever legal rule or posted every sticker on every door that different states make up.
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US - Knoxville and Pittsburgh
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I think we will see changes to early morning seminary within the year. Many high schools are changing to later start times that will make it harder and harder too find teachers and for parents to get their kids to class.
I also believe the church is still working on some type of home school/pathways type program with people called to provide face to face teaching once or twice a week at the local church building.
I really believe the leaders are concerned with losing our youth in such high numbers and are looking to give as much help as possible.
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On 4/22/2018 at 3:00 PM, Carborendum said:
The last I heard, it was not what we thought it was. It sounded like it was going to be a complete high school curriculum that would be exactly what homeschoolers are looking for. But it was eventually found to be what amounted to a small expansion of seminary and institute programs.
Do you have any addition information or links. That would be a huge step back from what they announced. If I remember correctly they were talking about a program that they expected to serve 10 of thousands of high school age kids for their educational needs.
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It had some momentum in 2014 and 2015 in south Florida.
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This kind of makes me laugh. In Florida there is a growing effort to split the state as well. But what is triggering this is the extreme conservative movement in Tallahassee that is trying to force rural politics on the mostly urban population from I-4 south. Which pays the bills for the more rural conservative areas of the northern region and panhandle.
Without Orlando, miami, st Pete, palm beach the northern region would find it pretty hard to pave their roads and have low taxes and no state income taxes. The I-4 south region covers most of the economic bills for the extreme conservatives to have their cake and eat it too.
Wouldn't it be nice if we could become more understanding of each other's needs and look to find common ground. It might even mean both sides of the political spectrum doesn't always get everything they want every time.
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Question - have anyone heard more about the church rolling out a high school educational program through pathways? I know they announced it about a year and half ago during seminary/institute training that was broadcasted from BYUI. I just haven't heard much since than.
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I really like Elder Oaks talk on politics and law. The following is an amazing statement with great insight. Sounds like moderates are exactly what is needed.
"Extreme voices polarize and create resentment and fear by emphasizing what is nonnegotiable and by suggesting that the desired outcome is to disable the adversary and achieve absolute victory. Such outcomes are rarely attainable and never preferable to living together in mutual understanding and peace."
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I'm pretty conservative and believe in preserving marriage between a man and a woman. But I don't actually think it's right that anyone should be denied employment, housing, business, etc. on the basis of their sexual orientation or sexual identity alone. I don't personally think Christ would want us turning such away for those things, either.
Where it gets complicated is when you bring marriage into the picture. For instance, I believe that the cake maker in Oregon should have had a right to saying "no" to making a wedding cake for a gay wedding, if he/she didn't believe in gay marriage. But I don't believe if that same couple walked in and wanted cupcakes for a snack, they should be turned away.
I certainly don't believe that it is moral or should be legal to deny them basics like housing, if they are otherwise capable of being responsible lessees. Employment is a little more sticky, but I think as long as a lifestyle of any kind doesn't interfere with being able to perform one's duties or with maintaining the company's image (for instance, Deseret Book shouldn't be forced to employ a transvestite), people should hire on a person's merits alone, not their orientation. But how to legislate or enforce any of that is beyond me.
I do think that a person should be able to put whoever they want to on their insurance if they're paying for it, and should be able to name whoever they wish as their next of kin (but can't they already do that in the form of a power of attorney?). I don't want to deny homosexuals any of those rights. Just leave marriage alone.
^^^I think this explains the church's view point pretty well.
"The Church’s doctrinal position is clear: Sexual activity should only occur between a man and a woman who are married."
"The Church has advocated for rights for same-sex couples regarding “hospitalization and medical care, fair housing and employment rights, or probate rights, so long as these do not infringe on the integrity of the traditional family or the constitutional rights of churches.”7 In Salt Lake City, for example, the Church supported ordinances aimed at protecting gay residents from discrimination in housing and employment."
"The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints affirms the centrality of doctrines relating to human sexuality and gender as well as the sanctity and significance of marriage as the union of a man and a woman.2 However, the Church firmly believes that all people are equally beloved children of God and deserve to be treated with love and respect. Church apostle Elder Quentin L. Cook stated, “As a church, nobody should be more loving and compassionate. Let us be at the forefront in terms of expressing love, compassion and outreach. Let’s not have families exclude or be disrespectful of those who choose a different lifestyle as a result of their feelings about their own gender.”
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And then when we add this warning by those who hold the keys in this generation, "Further, we warn that the disintegration of the family will bring upon individuals, communities, and nations the calamities foretold by ancient and modern prophets." How long will the Lord stay his hand?
Thank you!
Its sad to see members of the church go against the clear teachings of Jesus Christ and the prophets.
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This thread was an interesting read through. But the debate within didn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Everyone seems to basically agree and yet there's still this battle going on. I've been guilty of the same, of course. But it seems a bit strange. What, exactly, is the contention here? Is anyone arguing that we should be out nuking the whales? :) What's this really about here? I'm sinning if I don't recycle?
Just my observations.
I think you may be right on several of your observations.
I think each person ultimately must decide what it means to have stewardship over the earth. I think the church has posted several ways to do that (including recycling). But whether or not a person feels or will be held accountable for certain things is a tough one (with really no direct answer). We know we have stewardship, we have been told we will be held accountable, but that could very for each person and their sphere of influence. The one thing I got out of this is, the idea of ‘eat, drink and be merry’ - might not be good one and we should strive to leave it better than how we received it. I think these quotes from Ezra Taft Benson are pretty good on this subject.
Ezra Taft Benson - "In fact, we are morally obligated to turn this land over to those who succeed us — not drained of its fertility but improved in quality, in productivity, and in usefulness for future generations.”
Ezra Taft Benson - "Pollution of one's environment and moral impurity both rest on a life-style which partakes of a philosophy of ‘eat, drink, and be merry’ — gouge and grab now, without regard to the consequences. Both violate the spirit of stewardship for which we will stand accountable.”
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I notice you didn't answer my question there, raven2. It wasn't rhetorical. What do you think that statement from the LDS newsroom means? Exactly how does the state of an inner-city sewer worker's soul differ from that of an outdoor loving hiker?
I thought I answered number one. There needs to be a balance, but I do believe were are out of balance. I have posted serveral quotes as well on that subject, here is one of them again.
"Thus, when God gave unto man “dominion over the fish of the sea, and over fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth,”[22] it was not without boundaries or limits. He intends man’s dominion to be a righteous dominion, meaning one that is guided, curbed, and enlightened by the doctrine of His gospel—a gospel defined by God’s love for us and our love for Him and his works. The unbridled, voracious consumer is not consistent with God’s plan of happiness, which calls for humility, gratitude, and mutual respect.
In other words, as stewards over the earth and all life thereon, we are to gratefully make use of that which the Lord has provided, avoid wasting life and resources, and use the bounty of the earth to care for the poor." Elder Marcus B. Nash, 18th Annual Stegner Center Symposium, Friday, April 12, 2013
You other question, I don't understand it.
With that said, I think I have taken enough time to try and respond to you. You have yet to post much past your opinion, a few political articles and a few unanswerable questions.
Not trying to be rude, but I just feel like I have done enough to support my original statement and connected it with quotes/comments from the church, prophets and leaders.
I did appreciate the opportunity to discuss this topic. Thanks
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Just wondering.
We do know that we where instructed about mortaility.
“In the pre-existence we dwelt in the presence of God our Father. When the time arrived for us to be advanced in the scale of our existence and pass through this mundane probation, councils were held and the spirit children were instructed in matters pertaining to conditions in mortal life, and the reason for such an existence. In the former life we were spirits. In order that we should advance and eventually gain the goal of perfection, it was made known that we would receive tabernacles of flesh and bones and have to pass through mortality where we would be tried and proved to see if we, by trial, would prepare ourselves for exaltation. We were made to realize, in the presence of our glorious Father, who had a tangible body of flesh and bones which shone like the sun, that we were, as spirits, far inferior in our station to him” (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 1:57)
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Well, the main focus of your comments have surely been along those lines. I continue to believe that since agendas are being pushed on local, state, national, and global levels that can impact all of us, it is indeed wise to spend time looking at and participating in the debate.
I think everyone is welcomed to their opinion and can debate whatever issues they would like. My opinion was that, focusing on the political aspect of a topic very seldom results in a balanced and thoughtful discussion on a subject matter. It just ends up with one side posting their opinion and some data and the other side doing the same thing. (Which is what happens most of the time on the topic of Global Warming/Climate Change.) This frequently ends up with both sides missing what the prophets and the Savior had to say.
My feelings on this are pretty simple, this subject has more value and deserves more than a republican or democrat debate. I just find it sad when a political viewpoint becomes the focus of an individual’s thought process. (Which happens a lot on these types of subjects.)
It doesn't have to be an 'either-or' thing, you know raven2. One can be both desirous to be a wise and righteous steward, AND participate in the debate over climate change.I never said there shouldn't be a balance with this topic (and most topics).
Here's a counterbalancing comment for you to chew on:"Approaches to the environment must be prudent, realistic, balanced and consistent with the needs of the earth and of current and future generations, rather than pursuing the ideologies of humans who wish to push their agendas of power and control over individuals, corporations, and nations."
I think many leaders of the church have made enough statements to show that we are currently not in balance, as a nation and world, when it comes to our environment. (Thus all the posts from propehts and leaders of the church.)
Well, this quote is coming from an anonymous source working out of the church newsroom, so it's hardly "thus saith the Lord" quality material. That said, I'm not even sure what it means. Do people who clean septic tanks have a lower-quality soul than people who hike the Rockies and listen to John Denver music?You are welcome to believe or discredit whatever you would like.
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Ezra Taft Benson:
“Surely you can see the inconsistency in the individual who insists that we be good stewards and not pollute our environment, and yet who is unscrupulous in his personal life. Again, physical and spiritual laws are interrelated. Pollution of one's environment and moral impurity both rest on a life-style which partakes of a philosophy of ‘eat, drink, and be merry’ — gouge and grab now, without regard to the consequences. Both violate the spirit of stewardship for which we will stand accountable.”
Tips for reducing the amount of pollution you put into the air
Tips for reducing the amount of pollution you put into the air | Deseret News
This is not just a Utah issue.
Drowning in Utah's dirty air: Utah families, top elected officials search for solutions
"Utah's dirty air is costing people their health, and in some cases, their lives. It's costing the state millions of dollars, muddying Utah's reputation as a pristine, clean place to raise a family, grow a business."
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I heavily researched and wrote a paper about "Global Warming" and there is a reason the UN changed the name to Climate Change.
1. Human-caused carbon emissions produce a minute amount of particulates into the earth's atmosphere.
2. The earth's climate is in a constant state of fluctuation and has done so for thousands of years.
3. Trees produce three times more carbon emissions than humans do.
4. The treeline just below the arctic circle replenishes the earth's atmosphere for the entire planet by itself.
5. the ocean's temperatures have fluctuated (warmer and cooler) for centuries.
6. The number one factor in what our atmosphere does is the Sun.
7. There will always be enough natural resources on the earth for the benefit of the children of God. - Neal A. Maxwell
One of the main focuses of comments on this topic was, that the focus shouldn't be on the debate over climate change or global warming. Its on our responsibilities to care for and have stewardship over the earth and what the prophets and leaders have to say on this subject.
"The earth and all things on it should be used responsibly to sustain the human family. However, all are stewards — not owners — over this earth and its bounty and will be accountable before God for what they do with His creations.
Approaches to the environment must be prudent, realistic, balanced and consistent with the needs of the earth and of current and future generations, rather than pursuing the immediate vindication of personal desires or avowed rights.
The state of the human soul and the environment are interconnected, with each affecting and influencing the other."
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It is astonishing to me that this is a "cause" that so many have rallied around and find it particularly despicable when g/l are compared to the civil rights movement.
One day same sex marriage will be the the law of the land and generations of kids will have grown up confused and taught to disdain the bigotry of a faith that calls their love sin..already happening really.
For those who support SS marriage and are endowed members of the church, I wonder how that squares with "building up the kingdom of God", when you cast your lot with a law designed to destroy the family.?
I think it would be difficult to 'square away' in you mind and heart several temple recommend interview questions. Especially this one - "Do you support, affiliate with, or agree with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?"
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What you are seeing is people disagreeing over the implications of those quotes and that is where the discussion you feel is lacking is going to be centered (to be fair it need not have the tenor this current one seems to have). When people bring out the Church quotes people tend to get a bit more strident in their discussion because I find people tend to infer, "The Church and God agree with me. You're a bad Mormon if you don't." I use infer intentionally, as I think it is something inferred much more often than it is implied.
Unfortunately, sometimes people take that tone because something doesn't support their viewpoint (personally or politically). It a nice defense mechanism to divert the attention away for the 'uncomfortable' subject matter or to justify something away.
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There is nothing ridiculous with the concept of conserving renewable resources per se. Now your argument as expanded ultimately seems to be, "We're managing our trees just fine and the land isn't about to be stripped bare if you put your old homework in the wrong colored bin." Fair enough, a cognizant argument against the need to recycle for conservation purposes, but that doesn't mean the concept of conserving renewable resources is ridiculous on its face. Indeed, replanting trees so you'll have more later is conserving a renewable resource (because if you cut down trees faster than the natural replacement rate you'd have a dwindling supply of trees without management).
P.S. I realize you are responding to what you perceive to be emotionally charged claptrap. I just feel you've overreached just a bit in your attempt to respond in kind.
I truly respect peoples rights to their points of view. I just felt this topic was of value and that the church's published stand on it is sometimes not well discussed. I hope I have not offended anyone with posting some of those quotes, it was not my intent.
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Good Afternoon raven2. I hope you're having a good day! :)
Yes.
Yes.
Many of them.
I didn't make or imply the above assertions.
Some of us have been taught this, I agree. Others have not been taught this.
I agree.
-Finrock
Its a beautiful day. I hope you are having a good day as well.:)
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First I would like to say good for you and your family. Second, I am not sure how you would like me to response to this.
I responded to your comments. You ask things like 'who said I should leave it better than I received it'. I gave you a quote from a prophet. You asked 'earth is hear for us to exploit for all our desires'. I posted quotes from prophets and general authorties that show that that is an incorrect concept.
No really, raven2, I agree with you. I have accepted the knowledge and guidance of our prophets and scripture, and in the area of stewardship over the earth, my family and I are doing just fine. I know you've accepted it too. But since we're talking about global problems and cultural solutions, it makes sense to "focus on govt vs. business" as you put it. Because as things have stood for a few decades, our children are being educated by people with an agenda beyond mere teaching of good stewardship. Lifestyle-affecting legislation springs from the agendas of people who are not following the guidance of prophets or scripture. It's a big problem, and we owe it to ourselves and our children to address it, rather than pretend it doesn't exist.
I think you are now looking for a discussion on politics, government and private enterprise. I would not disagree there are many issues in all of these things. But to debate which political, government, private enterprise or research is right or wrong would be a very difficult and opinionated discussion. With no clear answer.
That is why I said forget politics, forget political parties, look to what the prophets and church leaders have said. I believe that is where the safety is. I have learned over time that to many people (church members) focus more of their opinions/disucssions on political viewpoints, instead of what Jesus Christ, the prophets and leaders of the church have to say.
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My body is just as much a part of this natural world as any plant, animal, or rock. Climate alarmist keep talking about how "humans" are destroying nature. We, humans, are a part of nature. I am no more a problem to this planet's natural course than a volcano, a monkey, or a stream. As a natural part of this world, humans leave their footprint just like anything else that is a part of nature. I see us accessing natural resources and using them as being "natural". Plants naturally use water. Earthquakes naturally shake and destroy earth. Volcano's naturally spew out CO2 when they erupt. Whales naturally deficate in to the oceans. Cows naturally release methane. Just because there is intelligence behind the use or manipulation of our natural resources doesn't make that use unnatural.
Humans and their use of the earth's resources is as natural as monkeys (or any other part of nature) and their/its use/manipulation of the earth's resources.
-Finrock
Did you read anything that was posted, or read the church's website, or the quotes from the prophets?
I don't think anyone said you are not part of the world, or that resources shouldn't be used to sustain your earthly needs, but we have also been taught to respect, protect, conserve and leave it better than how we received it. It doesn't belong to us, we have been given stewardship over it and will be held accountable for that stewarship and useage.
"In other words, as stewards over the earth and all life thereon, we are to gratefully make use of that which the Lord has provided, avoid wasting life and resources, and use the bounty of the earth to care for the poor." Elder Marcus B. Nash, 18th Annual Stegner Center Symposium, Friday, April 12, 2013
"The earth and all things on it should be used responsibly to sustain the human family. However, all are stewards — not owners — over this earth and its bounty and will be accountable before God for what they do with His creations.
Approaches to the environment must be prudent, realistic, balanced and consistent with the needs of the earth and of current and future generations, rather than pursuing the immediate vindication of personal desires or avowed rights."
April 2019 Conference Predictions
in LDS Gospel Discussion
Posted
More details on the new youth program that will include a high school program through pathways that will incorporate seminary and remove early morning seminary. New callings/assignments will be created to support the new high school program.