Bycote

askandanswer, thank you for this post! What great questions you asked, hopefully you and others reading your topic will find answers, light, and knowledge here in a great discussion. I am not sure what talks you have been reading about Peter, but I have never read one by a prophet or apostle who does not honor that valiant disciple of Christ. In fact, I believe one fundamental problem leading to your questions is that Latter-day Saints simply do not read their scriptures or listen to living prophets and apostles like we should. As you indicated, incorrect attitudes about Peter do exist, but I do not think they are taught us by our leaders. Rather, they grow within us as we do not heed our leaders as we should. I will demonstrate this below by showing very briefly what the scriptures and prophets say about Peter and provide parallel examples and sources of more information for anyone interested in learning more. An attitude of harshness and judgment against Peter for falling in the water and for denying the Lord three times does exist in the world, including among the Latter-day Saints, as you observed. Is this attitude justified by the scriptures and the prophets? Or do we fail to understand the scriptures and the prophets when we pass such judgment on Peter? You indicated that you felt Jesus was more praising of people who he healed than he was of Peter so I will briefly address this statement. Though this mistake is understandable, it isn't true at all and it helps us get a key to understanding Peter. One typical example of a healing account by Jesus in the New Testament is in Luke 18:42 and he simply says "Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee." Hardly a praise of the individual healed, this is rather a simple lesson to the healed person to know where the miraculous power which healed him sprang from. Namely, that it sprang from Jesus, the Messiah and the Son of God who he had faith in. The repetitious accounts in the New Testaments are Jesus’ assurance to the healed that, in essence, “I am who you believe I am, I am your Savior, I am the Son of God.” Contrast such simple accounts with the words recorded of Peter in the New Testament. Of all of Jesus' disciples, only Paul is mentioned more and NONE receives greater praise than Peter! I will recommend an Ensign article you can review in your personal study as you seek to confirm this fact: https://www.lds.org/ensign/1975/02/simon-peter?lang=eng Other prophets throughout this dispensation, including Joseph Smith and Jeffrey R. Holland, have praised Peter's faith. Would we be so critical if we simply read the scriptures or listened to the prophets’ words? Consider the following from Gene R. Cook: "We all know the story of Peter walking on the water. He saw Jesus approaching them on the surface of the sea, and, in a great act of faith, said, 'Bid me come unto thee.' (Matthew 14:28.) Jesus bade him to come, and Peter stepped out of the boat. You can imagine his feelings as he put all his weight on his foot and started to step into the Sea of Galilee. Then all of a sudden he was walking, the second man in the history of the world (as far as we know) to walk on water! Then it appears the devil moved into the picture. The wind stirred up, and waves lifted higher, and Peter began to doubt; he was filled with fear; and down he went into that dark, frightening water." Where is the criticism, the condescension, or the judgement? Of course, Elder Cook avoids such nonsense and uses the true scriptural account of the valiant man Peter to teach an important lesson. I will leave it to you to find further examples and I assure you there are plenty. Now, let’s go back to the scripture account in Matt. 14:31 and remember what was Jesus’ criticism of Peter on this occasion? “O thou of little faith wherefore did thou doubt?” Is this a severe indictment of Peter’s character? A far reaching reproach grasping at the roots of his faith? I do not think so. Sadly, nothing is preserved of the subsequent verbal exchange between Peter and the Lord, but verse 33 does record that all of the disciples had and proclaimed the same knowledge that those who were healed had: namely that Jesus was the Son of God. Since so little of the verbal exchange between Jesus and Peter is preserved here, I think it is good to look for parallel examples in the scriptures and try to see a big picture of what the Lord is trying to teach us. Consider sections 6, 8, and 9 of the Doctrine & Covenants. Here we learn about Oliver Cowdery’s attempt to translate from the golden plates using the Urim and Thummim. I will not go into great detail here, but rather focus on only one verse from section 9, verse 5 wherein the Lord states “it is because that you did not continue as you commenced…” You see, Oliver like Peter commenced successfully! Peter stepped out onto the water and stood upright as if he were on solid ground! Oliver took the Urim and Thummim and began translating from an ancient record written in an unknown tongue! Likewise, neither Oliver nor Peter continued as they commenced. We should not be critical of them, but we should acknowledge their partial failure and seek to learn from their experiences. What caused their faith to falter after they had already begun successfully? What lessons did the Lord teach Oliver in consequence of his failure? (It is very fortunate that far more words of our Lord are recorded on this occasion in DC 9 than were recorded in Matt. 14!). Also, consider do any other accounts exist wherein the tested did not falter? What was different and what can I learn from comparing and contrasting the two? As you consider that last question, I recommend reading the following old Ensign article from Elder Bruce Pinegar: https://www.lds.org/ensign/1974/11/we-need-to-continue-in-righteousness?lang=eng The following extract is especially relevant to our discussion: “...one of my recently returned missionaries confided in me a dilemma at returning home. This fine young man had served well his entire mission. He had demonstrated faith and courage under difficult circumstances. Now he faces the challenge of maintaining his missionary zeal and spirit in the surroundings of home where more subtle opposition may exist... The counsel I would give to my missionary, and to others who may be faced with the decision to continue or not to continue a righteous course, is to recall the experience of Oliver Cowdery. Oliver had begun his labors in the kingdom with a faithful and humble service. The Lord rewarded him by giving him the gift of translation. He told Oliver of marvelous contributions he could make toward enlightening the people if he would continue faithfully in his efforts. Later when Oliver attempted to translate, he failed. The Lord told Oliver it was "because that you did not continue as you commenced." (D&C 9:5.) Oliver had not continued in his righteous efforts, and the gift was taken from him. Simply stated, the Lord's counsel to one who has "commenced" properly and faithfully is, "Continue as you have commenced." We could follow the example of Nephi, a son of Helaman, who after laboring diligently to teach and live righteously, had decided to give up and return home because the people refused to accept his counsel and to repent. As he approached his home, the voice of the Lord came to him. The Lord reminded Nephi of the blessings that would result from the unwearyingness with which he had labored and taught the people and with which he had kept the commandments of God. With renewed vigor and determination, Nephi turned from his home and returned to his labors to continue as he had commenced. (See Hel. 10:2-12.) ...To continue means more than to endure or to tolerate something. It means to maintain a steady course of action with unshaken faith in Christ. It means to be a true follower of Christ.” I hope what I have shared here adds light to this subject. I love Peter, that great leader brimming over with valor and zeal! The one whom Jesus entrusted the keys of his kingdom upon completing his mortal mission! One of the most valiant of the sons of God who have lived in any dispensation, one who will sit in judgment of the House of Israel in the resurrection and judgment of the just, and one who will be exalted with our Eternal Father and his Son in everlasting burnings, with kingdoms and glory without end. To Zion! To Zion! Hurrah! Hurrah for Israel!

Great point Tubaloth! The second definition of "tradition" in the google dictionary is: "a doctrine believed to have divine authority though not in the scriptures, in particular." I think this is precisely the case here. A tradition of going to the temple for revelation definitely exists within the church. A quick glance through this thread showed me that no one has yet bothered to quote the scriptures or teachings of the prophets to you on this subject. I am not claiming that no such teachings exist. Indeed, if they do I would be extremely interested to read them because I know of none. However, I will indicate that when a spiritual question is answered by experience and reason and not accompanied by scripture and prophetic counsel, then you are learning about a tradition the answerer practices in their life. I am always careful in my life to distinguish between doctrine and tradition because I know that faith only has power when it is vested in truth and the traditions of man have little or no truth to deliver real faith to the follower (Lectures on Faith, 1). I do love doctrine and I love the temple. I love doing family history research and bringing their names to the temple. I love completing ordinances for the dead who never received them in their life (DC 128). I love sealing the human family together, one marriage and one child at a time. I especially love this last, central mission, the end of the earth's creation (DC 49), which the temple is the facilitator of - sealing the entire human family all the way back to Adam (Joseph Fielding Smith)! That the earth will not be wasted at his coming and that our books may be completed and turned over to the Lord for judgement at the End of Times (DC 128). I hope we always remember these doctrines when we go to the temple! One more brief thought that comes to mind for me is that the temple is indeed a house of learning (DC 88) and I have found priceless treasures of knowledge in God's temples. I have noticed that the things I learn in temples CANNOT be learned anywhere else on the earth. There, in the House of the Lord I participate in ordinances that are not done anywhere outside those walls, there I can ask questions that cannot be asked anywhere outside those walls, and there I receive answers that cannot be spoken anywhere outside those walls. There are millions of things we can learn about just about anywhere in the world, but there are a very few choice and exalted things we can learn about only in the temples of our God, I hope we will turn our minds to these things when we are there!

Good question! The presence of the spiritual gifts is the hallmark of the church of Jesus Christ and it is valuable to understand them and what they signify! The answer is in the scriptures. Some of you have danced around it, coming near, but just missing the mark. DC 46 answers the question in the most plain language we could hope for. I recommend everyone read the section in its entirety, but here is an excerpt that addresses the question beign asked specifically: 26 And all these gifts come from God, for the benefit of the children of God. 27 And unto the bishop of the church, and unto such as God shall appoint and ordain to watch over the church and to be elders unto the church, are to have it given unto them to discern all those gifts lest there shall be any among you professing and yet be not of God. 28 And it shall come to pass that he that asketh in Spiritshall receive in Spirit; 29 That unto some it may be given to have all those gifts, that there may be a head, in order that every member may be profited thereby.

Maureen, I did not communicate clearly if you believe the things you shared contradicted me. In very plain language, I was saying that Joseph did not have his own "seer stone" in addition to the Urim and Thummim he received with the golden plates. I do not claim that the Urim and Thummim itself is not a "seer stone." It is not inaccurate to use the terms interchangeably. Furthermore, I was not addressing a specific statement from another user when I addressed this issue, I was simply sharing this fact to shed more light on the overall circumstances of the question being addressed and David Whitmer's views on the subject.

Pam, why do you believe that story? I have spent some time this morning studying it and I discovered that Joseph's brother William Smith corroborated the account with the following words: "The instrument caused a strain on Joseph's eyes, and he sometimes resorted to covering his eyes with a hat to exclude the light in part" I do not know if Joseph ever did anything like the above, but I do know the much more detailed accounts given by David Whitmer are not to be trusted or taught by men and women of sound understanding. Nor is there any corroborating witness given by Joseph or Oliver that anything like the above occurred, though it is entirely inconsequential whether it did or not. As for myself, I neither believe nor disbelieve he ever peered into a hat while translating. Insufficient evidence exists to make a sound judgement and it does not matter. However, I must echo my preceding warning that a Latter-day Saint must study carefully and teach more carefully with respect to these matters. As an illustration of my point. Say you trust the above account and consider it important to teach it to your children. Additionally, say you trust the source from which it sprang. These are some of the other teachings you will find yourself in company with: According to David Whitmer, the source of your information. After the loss of the 116 pages of the manuscript by Martin Harris, Moroni took the golden plates and Urim and Thummim from Joseph and never returned either of them. In the stead thereof, the prophet used a chocolate-colored seer stone to accomplish the remaining translation. Joseph repeatedly testified that both were returned to him. Who do you believe? For more than fifty years, David Whitmer rejected Joseph Smith and publicly taught he was a fallen prophet. Do yo believe that? David Whitmer held a highly rigid view of Joseph's translation; it was not a process that Joseph's mind participated in at all (which plainly contradicts DC 9), but it was pure dictation from God as in the case of Muhammad and the Quran. Whitmer claimed that if a word was misspelled by the recorder, Joseph would not continue until it was corrected. However, 3,913 changes have been made to spelling and punctuation in The Book of Mormon since its original publication so he was clearly mistaken. Do you believe he was correct? Whitmer also gave inconsistent accounts of the instrument used to translate. It is from him that the idea of the "seer stone" came. In different accounts, Whitmer sometimes claims the seer stone was used by Joseph, while elsewhere he claims it was the Urim and Thummim. He cannot get his story straight so you cannot agree with him on this point. Also of important note is the instrument used by Joseph to translate. I have heard it commonly taught by Latter-day Saints that Joseph used Urim and Thummim AND a seer stone of his own to translate. They are mistaken. Again, I will not deprive you of the search to find the truth for yourself. But I will point you to DC 10:1, invite you to compare its text with the original publication text, then study why it was changed and what Joseph learned in the years between the two publications.

My comments are to the user who posted this question. I respect your desire to teach your children the truth. I wonder, how is it that you determine what is true with respect to church history? You indicated that you consider it true that Joseph Smith translated part of the Book of Mormon by peering into a seer stone in a hat, but you neither cited a source for this information nor did you cite a source in quoting "an apostle" who spoke on the subject. Before you endeavor to teach anyone what is true, I advise you to take the time, maybe lots of time, to carefully discover for yourself what is true. Go and look up who said what you attempted to quote, get the words in context, clarify your memory, and remind yourself what they were really talking about. Then go and learn where the information about Joseph and the hat came from. Compare that information with other accounts of the translation process, compare them for consistency and weigh them for veracity. I won't spoil the search for you, but if you do this I am confident you will find that there is no reason to teach your children about Joseph and the hat. The source from which it comes, David Whitmer, gave an account of the translation process entirely at odds with both Joseph Smith's and Oliver Cowdery's accounts, furthermore his account is self-contradictory and at odds with revelation given in DC 8 and 9. One excellent analysis that will aid your search for truth is provided in "Revelations of the Restoration" (McKonkie and Osltler), commentary on DC 9:7-10. Now, consider that when you posted this question you were convinced that something probably false (Joseph and the hat) and entirely inconsequential was actually true and that it was very important to teach it to your children. You were settled, it seems, upon teaching them false or inconsequential information in the name of truth. Obviously, you didn't know any better, but it is still an epic blunder, is it not? How do you avoid making the mistake again? I can only advise careful and lengthy study, and teaching only what is found to be officially taught by the church (for example, in the "Church History for the Fulness of Times" manual) as those sources will keep you right and prevent further blunders. God bless you and your children and lead you in paths of righteousness! To Zion!!

Hi everyone, I have a friend who has struggled for years to gain a testimony that Brigham Young is a prophet of God and the rightful successor as President of the church to Joseph Smith. My friend is a LDS convert but has stopped attending our meetings to follow the Restoration Branch instead. He is a good and thorough student of the gospel and church history and he is always open to learning more and receiving new revelation and he has asked me to help him gain a testimony of Brigham Young's prophetic role. Does anybody know any very good books about Brigham Young to recommend? It would probably be better if they were written by people who knew him first hand and walked and talked with him during his life on earth. As in the case of Joseph Smith and others, I think that is how we get a most accurate depiction of who he really is. :) Thank you for any help and suggestions. TO ZION!!!!

Oh wow! Thank you so much! I hope I can find some of these resources in print, they look wonderful! :)

Hi everyone, I have been reading the autobiography of Parley P. Pratt and I am very intrigued, interested, and excited by the way he details the meetings they held to preach the gospel. He describes sermons where, for example, they would preach extensively and exclusively on the topic of the organization of Christ's church during and immediately following his mortal ministry. I have been wondering, are there any manuscripts of these sermons or are there any books which contain similar texts? Perhaps the same author's "Voice of Warning?" I would prefer if they were by Parley P. Pratt, but they certainly don't have to be if there is something to be recommended from the Journal of Discourses or another source. Thank you for any help!