The Folk Prophet

For what? A Stake President who excommunicated a member for nothing would have that overturned on appeal to the First Presidency. You don't get excommunicated for doing nothing. No one every got excommunicated for nothing. You get excommunicated for doing something. If they didn't do anything, they don't get excommunicated. It's not on the table and it never has been as a threat to keep "unruly" member under the thumb of abusive leadership.

Methinks there's an awful lot more to the story than that.

Me thinks there are some exaggerations going on though. "Consumed" or "Zoar" seems a bit of a false dichotomy. And see my response to that. Seems a pretty poor example for missionary work. Here! Buy this Kirby vacuum while I clean my house with this Dyson that you already own.

I can see what you're saying. But I'm not sure I agree. It's putting the technical need for time, interviews and re-baptism as the "difficult" part of coming back. I'd say excommunicated but faithful and active would be much easier to come back from in the ways that matter. That being said...I don't really believe excommunication was on the table here. It's a bit of an exaggerated point.

@Carborendum see @zil2's answer for basically what I was in the middle of typing up. I'd only add...it's my perception that leaving the church for another is as good as nullifying ordinances through excommunication anyhow. What's the difference? I didn't covenant to give all my time, talents and everything the Lord's blessed me with to some other church.

It is worth it. I trust in God that much. I trust accountability will be just. How can one believe otherwise in today's world? Either God is just or He is not. The plain fact is that the garbage is unavoidable. And it's going to get worse. And worse. And worse. It legitimately and truly frightens me, in particular for my children. I'm going to run from it too...as much as possible, and as much as it doesn't mean betraying the covenants I made, which matter more to me than anything else.

Whereas I agree with you.... I also understand. When you get into a classroom at church, or at a family party, or etc., and half the people in there are nodding their head in agreement to something egregious and false, it very much does make you worry for your kids' sakes. I mean we homeschool just to keep our kids away from that kind of stuff...and yet we are well aware they'll get it at church. And it seems like such a simple thing for the prophet or an apostle to clarify. Unlike @old, however, despite my consternation on the same ideas, I trust that God knows what he's doing and that He leads this church, and that for whatever reason that I don't understand, He wants the general confusion instead of the explicit clarity. Which makes a certain sense. I mean Jesus spoke in parables for a reason, right? I don't fully understand. But I fully trust. On a side note: apparently in the previous ward we attended (which is my wife's parents' ward), one of the brethren started wearing a dress to church. I mean a dress, high-heels, and carries a cute little purse around. I'm so glad we aren't in that ward any longer. But what do you do about that kind of garbage?! Argh. So frustrating.

I think the concern is (and I understand it) that the church has allowed too many members to misunderstand this by not being more explicit and direct.

I wrote up a large reply, but the more I consider the more I'm just not sure replying is going to be of much use. You don't seem to understand the import of covenants. Short of encouraging you to research and understand better... I'm just not sure what I can say. And saying more is probably only likely to offend further. But as a starting point here's a link, as a reminder, that explains what covenants are made in the endowment, for example. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/temples/what-is-temple-endowment?lang=eng Moreover, you're clearly struggling with faith and testimony. The church is true or it isn't. What people do in a ward or stake doesn't change that. You need to know that core thing. I encourage you to find out through study, prayer, and faith. Beyond that, best wishes in your endeavors.

@old You still haven't said word one about covenants. I keep bringing it up. You keep ignoring it.

FWIW, I've heard commentary and feedback from people that is similar and I despise it. D&C 121:39 "We have learned by sad experience that it is the nature and disposition of almost all men, as soon as they get a little authority, as they suppose, they will immediately begin to exercise unrighteous dominion." Yep. The covenant path is the only path to exaltation. You have some issues, apparently, with that gospel truth. I don't feel like I deserve the blame for that for merely stating it.

I have a history of being pretty vehemently against the homosexual agenda. Honestly I think we'd get along rather well.

The keeping of covenants are key. If you truly believe you are then tell me to go jump. I don't think going inactive and attending a church that isn't God's authoritative church wherein the covenants are authoritatively made is keeping said covenants. That being said, I didn't directly tell you you are damned or call you an apostate. I did imply that those who leave the church are damning themselves. That's because of covenants, of which, if you have made them, you should also know very well what the consequences are for failing to keep them.

You don't know me. So we'll just let that one slide, as everyone else on the forum has a bit of a chuckle.

My position is irrelevant. I'm a rando on the internet. God's position is the only one that matters. If the church is God's church and the covenant path is His then you are damning yourself for leaving it. It has nothing to do with anyone else's position or anyone else's strength or weakness. If you don't believe The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is God's church then you don't believe it. And we disagree. And it's as simple as that. But to claim that other's who DO believe this are weak for believing it doesn't hold a lot of water in my book. You're free to believe what you want and exercise your agency according to your convictions.

@old do you understand what's meant by "the covenant path"? Do you understand what's meant by "authority"? Do you understand the concepts and ideas behind the "restoration" of Christ's gospel. Do you understand priesthood keys? Do you understand the purposes and importance of the temple?

I'm not sure what your point is.

Interesting. In that as far as I've noted I'm the only one who's responded this way.

Well, I supposed it also depends on what you mean by "suck it up". I said what I said. No matter how offensive the behavior and beliefs are of our fellow members the proper response isn't to leave Christ's church and damn ourselves accordingly. That doesn't mean that if 9 out of 10 members think that gay temple marriage ought to be a thing that the remaining 1% should just embrace it as well. If that's what you mean by "suck it up" and "the church" then the answer is no. I said we shouldn't leave the church and damn ourselves. So if not leaving the church and not damning ourselves is what you mean by "suck it up", then yes, I guess. If, however, you mean that the prophet stands up in General Conference and declares that gay marriage is legit now and gay temple marriages will now be performed... well, in that case, yeah. Members should suck it up and deal. If by suck it up and deal you mean pray about it, gain a testimony of the direction, and sustain the prophet. That's a ridiculous hypothetical though. But there are some definite things that are less ridiculous that could change in the church's approach. And some that probably will. And some that already have. I mean already they have women giving prayers in General Conference! Blasphemy!!!

Depends on what you mean by "the church".

Agreed. It's a challenge, of course. Because the answer in any case is the same. Humility. Faith. Obedience. And, I put it to you and @old and anyone... What if it were the norm church-wide? Does that make any difference. God's covenants are His. God's church is His. God's commandments are His. None of that changes no matter how other members behave. The reality we face is that it may well become the norm church-wide. The reality is that some of that stuff already is the norm church-wide (just not in leadership...typically). I understand the challenge. I understand the offense. But what are we going to do about it? Damn ourselves in protest?

Right. What I'm really trying to suggest (as you have already stated in previous posts, but....probably nicer than how I would put it), is that no one with a solid testimony and faith in the gospel would EVER start attending an Orthodox church. That fact alone doesn't make me fully disbelieve that the SP, bishop, and YW presidency behaved exactly the way it was claimed they behaved. But it does make the story suspect. I've had a lot of dealings with people who've gone inactive over the years. They always have similar sob stories. They've always been wronged by the church or members of the church or (most commonly) by the by leadership in the ward or stake. But despite the fact that said leadership is often no longer in the picture, and above-and-beyond extreme efforts have been made to show love, acceptance, kindness, etc., they are generally uninterested in returning. They claim members are too this, or too that, or behave this way or that way. And no matter how much that is or isn't true of the members in the new ward they've moved into..... well, you get my point. I know that sometimes bishops or SPs or whoever are terrible. Sure. But the reality of that being the cause of someone going inactive is, in my experience, extremely unlikely. When a person is so offended by the church that they actually leave it, I have found, that it's usually the person who's got issues rather than the church. Sure...this could be an outlier. This could be that rare exception... Except the attending the Orthodox church thing. That tells me point blank that this is not the exception. It's clear indication that there are testimony, faith, and understanding problems. Because no one who understands, believes in, and trusts what's important in the gospel would EVER abandon those things because some jerk leaders were jerks. Ever! In point of fact, the very idea that "love and acceptance" of gay people being taught in YW is somehow more of a danger to one's children than going inactive and attending an Orthodox church is so ridiculous it's almost laughable. If a YW leader is teaching things that aren't accurate it's pretty easy to sit down with your kid and explain to them that it isn't accurate and that not all leaders are perfect and sometimes people have some oddball approaches to the gospel. But if you've gone inactive and started attending another faith..... what sort of message are you teaching then? What sort of lesson are your children taking away from that? It's exposing one's children to SIGNIFICANTLY greater danger than some YW leader teaching that we have to love gay people and, perhaps, taking that a bit further on the progressive side of thinking than we're comfortable with. I could go on and on, breaking down the story being told in great detail...but to what end? As has been pointed out, it's a one-sided story and we really don't know for sure. What I do know is going inactive and ESPECIALLY going to another covenant-less church is not the answer. I don't have to deny the veracity of the story to draw this conclusion or make a judgement on the matter. I suspect the complete veracity of the story because of several red flags therein. But even were I to 100% accept its veracity, it doesn't change the fact that going inactive and then attending an Orthodox church instead is wildly off-based.

And if someone is attending an Orthodox church in response...well guess what that indicates? I would/could maybe sort of buy into the story if it wasn't for this fact.

I'm well aware that some church leaders are flawed. Some are stupid. And some allow wrong things. But when someone starts claiming that they're the saintly innocent victim of the YW presidency, the bishopric, the Stake Presidency, etc. etc.... Really? The entire ward and stake are the ones in the wrong? Nothing else going on here? Just corrupt leaders? Really? And, of course, attending an Orthodox church isn't a red flag now at all, is it? That doesn't indicate anything at all, does it now? Or.... Maybe when something smells like fish, it's fish.

I don't.