broadway

Some interesting thoughts here... As was already mentioned on this thread, the only unforgivable sin is to blaspheme against the holy spirit...however, what is the temple of the holy spirit? Is it not our bodies? This is why sexual sins are so grievious...they are sins against the bodies. How much more so is a murder? Just a thought

so...you've only skipped ONE meeting, eh? hmmm.....

There are two kinds of people here on this board (for the most part). They are: those who are LDS and enjoy talking to others about it, and non-LDS folk who come here out of concern to hopefully change the hearts and minds of those who are LDS. You will rarely meet a person here who doesn't care for the LDS folk in some respect. Though I can appreciate your point of view, you must also appreciate theirs. Then and only then will any sort of communication come.

I am LDS.

I know that for some of you, there may be more than one correct answer. Mostly, I want to know how many ex-mormons we have here, so if one of your answers is ex-mormon, choose that one. You can always leave a response to further explain your answer if you wish. Veronica

1) In anutshell, I would say yes, the CK is all you say it is, and NO anything less would not leave one feeling severly limited for eternity (I re-worded your statement a little to answer the question I think you were really asking)2)God is the God of thoughts and intentions, not just the actions. He knows if we have truely sought out the Spirit. This goes for those a part of the LDS Church and those not. It is very possible that those who were never part of the LDS church to be a part of the CK. I do not know much about this. It is something special and not just for everyone....sorry that I cannot remember this. I will ask around and get more info on this (unless someone here knows a little more about what I am referring to) It is my belief that one dies with the same spirit one lived with. If you were given the oppurtunity while on earth to accept the gospel, and died, you will remain skeptical of the gospel. (The gospel means what you read of in scriptures....the name 'Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints' will not be in the gospel at all, neither will the word "Mormons". One is accepting the gospel, not the church, so to speak) Yes, those who are not at the stage of accountability will not be held accountable. This goes for those below the age of eight and those who are not capable otherwise to understand the gospel. 3) I am not sure I understand your last one, but I think you are trying to point out that since the reward of CK is so unimaginable that the hardship of the road to gaining that reward could not compare to the greatness of the reward, right? Pending that being the question, then I would say yes. This goes for ALL the kingdoms. That is what the atonement is all about....grace and mercy. One cannot 'earn' one's way into heaven. One has to accept the gift that God gave us all....Jesus's atonement. Then and only then can one make it into the CK. But, as the scriptures say "faith without works is dead". If one truely loved God and had faith in Him and accepted His free gift, one would want to follow His commandments. Likewise, the other two kingdoms are very wonderful as well (as you probably already know). The other two kindgoms do not even require an acceptance of His gift. In fact, the only thing required of us is that we do not blaspheme against the Holy Ghost (that is to say that we do not deny having a special revelation of Him or something as serious). Liars, Murderers, Adulterers will all reside in a very wonderful existance much better than what we live in now. They kept their first estate, therefore get some sort of reward. This reward is not given without some pain, though. These people will know what they have done and could have done and will feel sorrow for it. Once this time period has passed, they too can live out eternity in joy and glory. What kind of God would be fair? I am glad He isn't. I know that I don't deserve to have the temporal blessings He gives me, not to mention any eternal ones. He set up a system that allows us to be spotless in spite of our sins. This God could never be accused of being fair. This God could only be accused of being merciful, and compassionate. In conclusion, no...you are not wrong. The hardship of the road to glory does not compare to the greatness of the glory we recieve....regardless of which glory that might be. And thank God that is so. broadway

(That was from "Gospel Principles") It sounds like if I did Temple Work for my non-Mormon family, they would end up in the Terrestrial Kingdom because they did not recieve the Gospel on earth. If that is true, what is the point of Temple Work? no, the point in doing Temple work is to give all people the chance to accept or reject the gospel.

I like the taste of beer. Yes, it was an aquired taste, which I aquired before I joined the Church. Now that I am a member, I miss the taste of a cool, refreshing beer. Beer is just something I like to drink when I want something refreshing with more taste than water, but not as sweet as soda. I guess the only Mormons interested in non-alcoholic beer would be converts who already aquired the taste for it. no....there are people such as yourself who have aquired the taste but for other reasons don't drink alcohol. Desingnated drivers would be one. People with health issues would be another...I am sure there are others. I don't think one would be considered 'unworthy' for drinking a non-alcoholic beer. Neither would they be unworthy for drinking non-caff tea and coffee (non caff is very different than de caff). To be worthy to enter the temple, one has to follow the letter of the law. This is why I think it is the members who have made such a big deal over it and not the leaders. The leaders have been saying the same thing for a long time. Do not drink coffe, tea or alcohol in order to be worthy. It is the members who have wanted that disected further into sub catagories. Ask any bishop what it takes (regarding WoW) to be considered worthy to enter the temple, and he will not go into sodas, non-alcoholic beer, or sparkling grapejuice This gets into spirit of the law which can jet off into very many directions, such as 'the appearance of evil', ' caffeine intake' , ' definition of HOT drinks' etc... Free Will, Personal Choice...you get the idea. broadway

HA! Amazing what parallels one can draw from that movie. broadway

O'Douls is a non-alcoholic beer.and why on Earth would anyone want to drink it? I tasted Budweiser once and it was horrible. I tried a Cosmopolitan once and it was horrible. I tried a Fuzzy Navel and it isn't very good either. Alcohol is definatly an aquired taste...if it doesn't taste very good, and there are no side benefits such as getting a buzz, then why drink it? Like the BudLight Billboard says, choose on taste and I choose to follow the WoW. broadway

I found your post extremely interesting. You never said how she was traveling in space. Did she have a dream, a vision, a revelation? How did she describe gaining this knowledge?Honestly, I am apt to believe this. I felt something as I read it. Has she told anyone about this? This is an amazing account of something potentially spectacular. Even if this isn't a true account of our 'intelligence existance', it is certainly a great way of thinking about it in order to try to understand it more. I appreciate your sharing this with me. I would like to hear more about it. I will be praying about this to see if there is something to this. broadway

You've actually just pointed out another flaw in the WoW. If it is the heat of the drinks that is bad, then WHY is hot choc, etc. not forbidden? And why is iced tea? No matter what way you look at it, it MAKES NO SENSE! I think it's a power thing. At this point, because it has been revealed to us not to drink beverages that high in caffeine...that is why. I do not think there is a 'flaw' in the WOW, only a 'flaw' in how people accept it or take it. The WOW is about being healthy. It is proven that tea is really bad for a person's body, so is coffee. Just because there are other beverages that are bad for you as well doesn't mean that you should just disregard the WOW concerning tea and coffee. If anything, as a person who knows the health dangers of drinking other kinds of beverages, you should be even more restrictive on yourself...not less. Hold the phone. Where "has been revealed to us not to drink beverages that high in caffeine." It has been revealed to us not to drink tea and coffee (these are beverages that are high in caffeine). I did not mean to imply that revelation includes the word 'caffeine'. I mean to say that the beverages it does specifically mention are high in caffeine....much more so than many it doesn't mention (though some may include, such as sodas hot chocalote etc) Sorry for the confusion...hope that clears that up. BTW, you didn't have to seem so excited to find an error in my reply. As I am pregnant (due any day now), my mind will be preoccpied with other things than perfection in debating...bare with me some, in the future, alright? thanks.

You've actually just pointed out another flaw in the WoW. If it is the heat of the drinks that is bad, then WHY is hot choc, etc. not forbidden? And why is iced tea? No matter what way you look at it, it MAKES NO SENSE! I think it's a power thing. At this point, because it has been revealed to us not to drink beverages that high in caffeine...that is why. I do not think there is a 'flaw' in the WOW, only a 'flaw' in how people accept it or take it. The WOW is about being healthy. It is proven that tea is really bad for a person's body, so is coffee. Just because there are other beverages that are bad for you as well doesn't mean that you should just disregard the WOW concerning tea and coffee. If anything, as a person who knows the health dangers of drinking other kinds of beverages, you should be even more restrictive on yourself...not less.

Ever eat margarine, Starsky? If so, then you don't have a lot of discipline (going by your meaning). Trans fats, as found in margarine, are VERY unhealthy. What about bacon, palm oil, refined flours, etc? To avoid everything bad is sometimes really bad for you...do you breath Shanstress??? Do you know how bad polution is for your lungs....stop breathing alright? LOL BTW...I choose to use 'special butter subs'. No trans fattys here...bacon yuk! and flour...only whole wheat...when I use it at all...I prefer nuts and fresh veggies and fruits. Don't much like meat, but use tuna and love crab salad...something wrong with those? LOL...maybe we should just stop eating all together....I am for that!!! yes, apparently everything you eat is bad for you. You DO eventually die, do you not?

The 'hot drinks' part of the WOW is quite literal. It is unhealthy for one's stomache to drink liquids at extreme temperatures. The most common hot drinks happen to be tea and coffee, which have other bad side effects due to caffiene. I would imagine that drinking Hot Chocolate or herbal tea or chicken broth at the same high temperature would be just as unhealthy. Look up "Hot Drinks" in "Mormon Doctrine. Pretty interesting.

It is a small thing that a lot of people have a hard time obeying... It is where some people get hanged up. The church 'makes a big deal' out of it since that is where the church is having its problems. A man can try to teach a person about the universe but won't have much success if they are having a hard time grasping that earth is finite and small. If the church is having a hard time with such a small part of the gospel, then how is the church going to be able to handle the deeper things, such as the law of full concencration or whatever? It is a small deal that gets blown into a big deal by our members, not the leaders.

Jason, LOL!!! That was funny. (Mine was funnier) You say substance. I say form...you say poh-tay-toe, I say poh-tah-toe... I am not sure there is much of a diffference. I never said God didn't have a spirit. In fact, there is a difference between the Holy Spirit and the Spirit of God. I know that we are made in GOd's image and in his likeness...so if we have a spirit and a body, then it only stands to reson that so does He. You are a spirit, too. This does not mean that you do not have a body. What about the scripture that talks of Jacob fighting God...literally physically fighting God? How can a man physically fight with a spirit?

http://www.lds.org/newsroom/mistakes/0,153...,3885-1,00.html nice to know that people are starting to know this.

er...what church would THAT be? In case you are asking about the LDS church...anyone in polygamous relationships are excommunicated (the most severe punishment that the church can give). Anyone in an adulterous relationship are also punished in some manner. This churh only authorizes and takes part in monogomous marriages. If you weren't talking about the LDS church, then would you enlighten me as to what church you were referring to? If you read the very first post, you'll see that I wasn't talking about the LDS church. Go to the link in the first post and you'll see what I'm talking about. It's the True and Living Church of Jesus Christ of Saints of the Last Days - an offshoot of LDS. I did see the link. Since I believe that the LDS church IS the True and Living Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, I thought it was referring to us/

indeed. Wise words.

er...what church would THAT be?In case you are asking about the LDS church...anyone in polygamous relationships are excommunicated (the most severe punishment that the church can give). Anyone in an adulterous relationship are also punished in some manner. This churh only authorizes and takes part in monogomous marriages. If you weren't talking about the LDS church, then would you enlighten me as to what church you were referring to?

So, you got baptised, then sometime later began to doubt, so you prayed to see if this church was true (again), you felt as though you were being told by the spirit that the Church isn't true, so you left. Now you are missing the church and feel confused.Is that right? Ok, I can understand where you are coming from. Allow me to bring your attention to a few things, first. What was going on in your spiritual life as you began to doubt? Also, do you recall what happened Martin Harris when he prayed to God for an answer to something that he already received an answer to? It was taken away from him. (may not apply here, but it seemed relevant) Faith is a delicate thing when it first starts to out. It has to be nurished for it to grow. If you aren't doing what you need to do in order to gain knowledge, faith, and a testimony...they will disappear. I went through times of doubt after I became a member. I hadn't been reading the scriptures, going to church, praying etc..This is when the doubt came and not before. Also, if you feed yourself material that is against the Church, man's wisdom is what you are feeding yourself, not God's wisdom. God's wisdom will then begin to dwindle away from you. Things begin to make sense to you that were absurd to you before and things become absurd to you that made sense to you before. Confusion is where that leads you. Thankfully, you still have your free will. You can still choose to live the life your are supposed to. You can have the missionaries come over to talk with you. You can go to your bishop and tell him about your doubts and experiences. You ought not be too embarrassed about this. Your salvation is on the line, so don't you owe it to yourself to gain the knowledge once and for all? I have spokent o several people in church (predominant members with strong testimonies) who have gone through similiar situations. Faith needs nurturing or it will go away. Satan has been around for a few years, and he knows how human nature is. He knows all the tricks and can use his influences to put doubt into your mind. He knows you better than you know yourself. He remembers the pre-existance, and you don't. But, he only has the influence over you if you do nothing to combat it. Start praying first. Then move on to scripures when you are ready. Remember, prayer is how you talk with God. Scriptures is how God talks to you. This is a good place to start.

A really wise man, a friend of our family's who served as a bishop, said this... If you get to the weekend and don't drink any sodas at all, and begin getting headaches and other withdrawal signs, you are drinking too much. The WOW is about health. Being addicted to a drug (regardless of how 'small' the drug may be) isn't healthy. If you can go all weekend without sodas and do not get affected by it, then odds are, you aren't drinking so much that it is unhealthy for you. Pretty wise insight, isn't it? broadway How about if you are addicted to exercise? Or knitting? Or watching TV? Is it keeping you from doing other things? This may go into a little bit of the doctrine (if it is a doctrine) of Sins of Omission... Basically, if you are addicted to knitting, say, and you do this so much that you forget to read your scriptures, then it may be a sin of Omission... Now, would knitting keep you from going to the temple? Of course not. Niether would drinking Coca-Cola. Exercizing too much is very certainly unhealthy for you. You can damage your body that way. Your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit and is under your care to maintain it. You will be help accountable for this. TV watching is very risky as well, since we are to stay away from pervesreness. I could imagine that even scripture reading could become a sin if done so much one forgets to maintain health or do other things that are commanded of them. Thankfully, though, we were all given brains to figure this stuff out for ourselves, and Heavenly Father/prayer for when we cannot figure these things out ourselves.

$4000.00 is way too much money for the average Joe to spend on any research material. Now, if you have the moolah, then what else is better to spend it on than education and the furtherance of spirituality? When I become a better-then-average Joe, I will. But until then, I will be content with my little Mormon Doctrine book and a few Missionary Library books in combination with my scriptures and the internet.

Intelligences I was pondering what intelligences were as spoken of in LDS scripture. Abraham 3:21-22 I dwell in the midst of them all; I now, therefore, have come down unto thee to declare unto thee the works which my hands have made, wherein my wisdom excelleth them all, for I rule in the heavens above, and in the earth beneath, in all wisdom and prudence, over all the intelligences thine eyes have seen from the beginning; I came down in the beginning in the midst of all the intelligences thou hast seen. Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones; I think that another way of thinking of intelligence might be “an existence of awareness” or “non-spirit entity” _____________________________________________________________________________________________________ It seems to me that everything has these intelligences in it. Matthew 17: 20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you. How else could the mountain recognize the command, then follow it? It must be that it has intelligence in it. Sounds much like the Eastern Religions to me. And why not? Our prophet has said that every faith has an element of truth in it. ___________________________________________________________________________________________________ Also, with this in mind, I was thinking about poor saps such as Judas Iscariot who was created for a particular purpose and then was punished for it…Now, the question is this. Why would Heavenly Father create a spirit with a personality, weakness etc. that was bent towards doing this terrible thing, then set him up in the proper circumstances to do this thing, then punish him for it as severely as any son of perdition will be punished? We all know that intelligences cannot be created. D&C 93 : 29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be. So, could intelligences refer to something somewhat close to our personalities, or at least what makes us who we are? Could it be that God didn’t create a being’s personality that would surely make this person fall? Another view of this particular thing is that God doesn’t give us any temptation that we cannot overcome. So Lucifer had what it took to resist the temptation, he used his free will not to. God gave us weaknesses to help us progress. God puts us in hard situations to help us grow. Perhaps, He knew that Judas had a problem with greed and chose to put him in charge of the treasury in order to help him grow out of that weakness (same way an impatient person is inevitably called to be the Nursery Teacher). Judas could have withstood this temptation, but used his freewill not to. So he was punished for it. This particular theory could involve ‘intelligences’ or not. Either would work here. _____________________________________________________________________________________________________ Also, along the lines of everything having these intelligences, what seperates our 'intelligence' from the mountains or a bug or a fence? Are 'bug intelligences' different than the intelligences that will evetually become a human? If not, then is it possible that the intelligences that are around us right now will eventually become spirits and then embodied? This is also somewhat close to Eastern Religions. _____________________________________________________________________________________________________ That was a lot to think about at once, I know. But I hope you found it as interesting to think about as I did. I hope that you will post your thoughts about it. broadway -I added color and seperation lines to make it easier to read and more interesting.