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Interesting, so when the Bible says Son of God we should interpret that as Not the Son of God. Good thinking Stephen - disbelieving the Bible. Let us know how that works out for you. Fact is, not supposition, fact, that people have 46 chromosones. 23 from the father and 23 from the mother. Provided Christ was a person, he had all 46, just like the rest of us. That 20 and 3 from his father and 20 and 3 from his mother. Check the math, add it up. Jesus Christ is the only person that walked the earth that had no biological parents. This is biblical. Even the Mormon Church acknowledges this even if you are igorant of it. Mary was a virgin. Jesus Christ was not conceived as a result of sexual intercourse between a man and a woman. That means that he literally had no biological parents. Why this elementary information that almost all Christians believe and accept as truth is so difficult for you to understand is beyond me. I am not sure what point this proves. In any case, you sound presumptuous to speak of Jesus's birth with such assumed knowledge and understanding. It is true that Heavenly Father and Mary did not have intercourse, but I do not think that this means that Jesus had only half a set of dna material or chromosomes. In fact, I have no idea what it means to be the child of two people who did not share their bodily fluids in some shape or fashion (and I admit that I too am assuming quite a bit in that last statement). But like I said before, what point is this supposed to prove? I mean that honestly and not as sarcastic as I am sure it sounds. Is this supposed to prove that Mormons don't believe in the 'real' Jesus? Of course, I would refute that, but I will wait until there is something to refute. broadway

who'd a thunk it?? broadway

If you found a longer word, post it here. broadway

Ok, here are the rules: In order to post an answer to the question, one has to also post a new question. This game is open for all, but must have specific answers, not up to interpretaion. In other words, one can ask "Who is this quote by...?" but not "Where does it prove this doctrine?" Must be taken from scripture, defined as Old Testament, New Testament, Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, or D&C. I'll start. Who says this? "And now who knoweth but what the remnant of the seed of Joseph, which shall perish as his garment, are those who have dissented from us? Yea, and even it shall be ourselves if we do not stand fast in the faith of Christ" Bonus: What is the significance of the garment mentioned in this passage? Hint: it has to do with a covenant being made. broadway

My problem with 'evidence' Who decides whether the evidence is real? I wasn't there when Lehi crossed the wilderness. I wasn't there when these evidences were found. In fact, I haven't even seen these evidences. I probably never will. I have to take the word of someone who says that they've seen it, and even then, how does this person know that the evidence wasn't put there before he got there, and isn't really evidence? It seems to me that the idea of 'evidence' and 'reliabe sources' takes as much faith as anything else. I believe the Book of Mormon to be a reliable source. I believe President Hinkley to be a reliable source. I believe his testimony to be evidence. I believe Joseph Smith's visions to be evidence of our church's truth. I believe the witness's testimony to be evidences of its truth (as written in the beginning of the Book of Mormon). (I'd urge you to read at least that. It is only a few pages long.) These reliabel sources and evidences take faith. So, what's the difference? broadway

Sephara, Who gets to decide which parts of the Bible are perfectly untouched by man and which may be incorrect? You had said that the Bible is correct up to a certain part (or however you worded it...if I misunderstood you, let me know). Who gets to decide that? You? Do you claim to have revealed knowledge from God that few others get to have? (That is called being a prophet) I guess I'll get to my point now. The Word of God is infalliable. NO MISTAKES in it. You are right. However, no one has ever claimed that the word of man is infalliable. Therefore, our saying, "The Bible is correct, in so far as it is translated correctly" This isn't a blast to the mainstream Christian church. In fact, I would go so far as to say that you believe the same thing. Our differences lie in whether it has been mistranslated. broadway

Saphara, May I suggest "Our Search For Happiness" by Ballard. It is a part of the Missionary Library (meaning missionaries are supposed to have it on them and read it). It is a great short explaination of what we believe. It isn't for the purposes of converting, but for understanding, as explained in the intro. It puts our beliefs in very simple terms (because our doctrine IS pretty simple. There are those who go WAY into it and try to understand every little thing, but really, once it becomes daily life for a person, it is simple, not complicated). It is a small book, easy to read. Its target audience are those who want to know more about the Church, not one who wishes to see proof for it. If you want a good book that takes our doctrine and explains it and proves it through scripture, you may want to read "A Marvelous Work and Wonder" by Legrande Richards. This book is about the length of a novel. It is great at explaining our doctrines and proving that our doctrines are not contradictory to the Bible. I would still urge you to read the book of Mormon for may reasons. 1)I believe if you prayerfully read it with pure intentions, you will gain a testimony of its truth. 2) The best way to learn more about a Church is to reads its scriptures. 3) It is improbable that there are any number of books that could be read that includes everything that is included on our scriptures. You might as well just read it, if you are going to take the time to read all the other books. May I ask, why don't you just read it? Is it the language that troubles you? I am not trying to offend. I just simply want to know. In any case, I really believe that those two above-mentioned books would be a good start for you. As an after-thought, I'd like to say that all these other books are great to read once one has read the scriptures. These books are there to help one understand the scriptures better, not to be read in its stead. broadway

Laban wasn't exactly a good man. He had killed and robbed many men to gain the power he had. There is a law about taking a man's life...we all know what that law is. God may have chosen Nephi to take Laban's life as a payment for all the lives that Laban had taken, while also providing a way that Nephi could take the brass plates. broadway

Very useful. Thanks. Where did this definition come from?broadway

Ok, then we have either run into a scriptural contradiction or a place in the scripture that one has to understand that God's mind is very complex and cannot be fully placed into the language of man. Jesus has a mother, for certain, no matter who you ask. Mary is said, in scripture, to be Jesus's mother. God is said, in scripture, to be Jesus's father. Now, is one prophet just kidding, or is this another example of God having to say things a certain way for the understanding of some men, and say it a different way for the understanding of other men? About the beginning of Jesus, we ALL existed before we were spirits. You, as a former member of our church, ought to be familiar with this doctrine of intelligences. May I ask, how long ago did you decide that you wanted to look for a different church? How long were you an ACTIVE member of the LDS church? broadway

Stephen, Would you, for the sake of my ignorance, explain what you believe these verses to say? It seems that I have missed a part of this discussion and have no idea in what context this post is. broadway

Then I will count my blessings. All the anti's I have come in contact with have been very kind to me. I take that back...all the anti's with the exception of those in my own family have been very kind to me.

Yes, that would be your opinion.broadway

Most that can be catagorized as anti-mormon do it out of sincere concern for those who they think are going to hell unless someone helps point them in the right direction. It is the anti-mormon I have had most success with when I want to talk about my church. It is they who will listen whole-heartedly (most, not all) broadway

Isn't that what the Mainstream Christian churches tell their congregations? "We have no prophet. God can't bring up another prophet. It is up to personal interpretation. We are our own prophet." They say this and hope that each can come up with the correct interpretation because it is possible that with misinterpreting it, eternal damnation comes into the picture. So, we have these churches leading their people to believe that God has left us to lead ourselves, all the while ridiculing the LDS church for its belief in a need for a restored gospel.

Well, if one thinks about it, he probably had to have been. He brought many to the church. broadway

As Peace explained earlier, it isn't a doctrine, per se. It is a belief. However, I think that most LDS members would indeed grant anyone that it is a widely accepted LDS belief. Debating over whether it is this or an offical doctrine is pretty silly. It may be more useful to ask if there is a member of the LDS church, here, that does not believe that there is a Heavenly Mother or that Jesus's spirit was conceived by his Heavenly Parents. If so, speak up and also please include some scripture or reasoning as to why you do not beleive this to be so. Also, any non-member who believes that this doctrine, belief etc contradicts scripture, then he or she may want to take this opportunity to post as well. broadway

I know that you said to wait until a particular time to start writing, but I had written this not too long ago. Being that it is religous, not many people from the poetry forum I frequent liked it. So I am going to post it here. House of Israel Moments of realization seeping Through every vine. The lord of the vineyard is weeping An old skin is filled anew with wine Soon, the seams break. The spirit left unmoved, for His sake, Will be plucked off line. Servant and master labor in fields Trimming the tree. Grafting and pruning to keep the yields, The good fruit is gathered separately. The lord is heard, “I may lose all trees of my vineyard And it greiveth me.” This task’s cruel to both servant and lord, But both toil on. The servant works to increase the hoard, His work calling, like water to fawn. But time runs near The gathered fruit will be counted, here, By the Righteous One. The vineyard must then be cleansed by fire, As well it should. The Lord weeps over his lost desire, Though He knows He did all that He could. The foretold end Will allow the broken Earth to mend; God will save the good. What do you guys think of it? broadway

I thought Joseph Smith had brown hair and was medium build??? That, at least, is what the pictures of him show. In what way was he powerful? The church? Just curious. broadway

I would say that FHE lessons ought not to be LDS disapproved material, but not necessarily lds approved material only. I think it is a great idea to have a lesson on the solar system, or anything really, that would interest your family. In any case, since everything was created by God, it would be pretty difficult to find a lesson that couldn't be linked to Heavenly Father or His creation, etc. Also, the entire idea behind a FHE is not just the scripture or religous part of it, but I would say it is the FAMILY part of it. I have known a member who, one Monday night, decided that it would be best to gather his family up and take them for ice cream. He knew what his family was going through at the moment and he excersized his ability to listen to the promptings of the Holy Spirit. He felt that it was the best thing to do that night. broadway

Alma 29:5 "Yea, and I know that good and evil have come before all men; he that knoweth not good from evil is blameless; but he that knoweth good and evil, to him it is given according to his desires, whether he desireth good or evil, life or death, joy or remorse of conscience"

Actually, non-members CAN get to the celestial kingdom. The only two ways I can think to do this is to die before 8 or to have a mental disability that would disable one to comprehend the difference between right and wrong. Furthermore, the works vs grace issue is a non-issue really. It is LDS doctrine that without the grace of God and Jesus's atonement, no one would have been able to get back to Heavenly Father. It is because of this grace that we are able to work out our salvation. I know you are familiar enough with the scriptures to be able to pull out a few that talk about faith and works, etc. They are both required. What good is faith if one doesn't use it? If one had faith, it would show. If it doesn't show, then one doesn't have faith. A tree is known by its fruit. That is why it is a non-issue. Anyone who believes the faith-only doctrine and has faith, should also, by the same scriptures, know that he should also be helping our fellow man. Otherwise his faith is non-existant and he wouldn't be able to get back to Heavenly Father at all. So in order to inherit the kingdom of God, one needs both. broadway

Please excuse any newbie errors, as I am a newbie to this board. In any case, I have been reading over Stephen's comments, and have noticed several common misunderstandings. You will NOT find any scripture to back up a belief of a Heavenly Mother. Not one. It is a logical step to believe there is a Heavenly Mother based on our doctrine, including the fact that there is a Heavenly Father, and that God created man in their image (I use plural here because scripture in Genesis uses plural), male and female. These are not the only reasons, but this is a good start. Also, it is the offical LDS belief that Heavenly Father created spirits, therefore all of us are children of God, and thus brothers/sisters. Yes, that includes, Satan and his followers. Show me any scripture that would refute this or show that it is blasphemous. I also noted that there is some discussion about what is an opinion and what is offical beliefs, etc...The organization of our church is such that, while it allows for its members to have their own opinions, there is little left to debate. Most topics that could be discussed about Mormonism shouldn't have to be left up to opinion, and even then, one could look for the opinion of one who knows a bit more than the average Joe Mormon, such as an Elder from the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, etc. I try to stay away from my personal view of things when talking to a non-member about our church so that I do not lead the non-member astray. It is a very thin line one has to walk on when giving one's opinion of something that isn't very talked about in scripture or by our Prophet. It is easy to use man's wisdom rather than God's wisdom as talked about in James (Chapter 5 I believe) So I would urge all members to avoid using his or her own opinion that isn't back up by scripture or our Prophet. There are too many non-members that could misunderstand the difference between offical doctrine and an opinion. We can all agree there is a BIG difference. broadway

As an LDS member, I have no idea what you are talking about by saying that our church doesn't believe that Jesus Christ is the first born of Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother. BTW, there is no scripture on a Heavenly Mother. Anything said about her is pure speculation. It makes sense that there is a Heavenly Mother and that she would be the spirit mother of Jesus Christ. But no one will be able to find this in scripture anywhere. There is, however, scripture to back up my saying that Jesus is the first born of Heavenly Father. Although is isn't scripture, allow me to quote a passage from a book by Bruce R McConkie, Mormon Doctrine. " Christ is the Firstborn, meaning that he was the first Spirit Child born to God the Father in pre-existance. (D7C 93:21; John 1: 1-5; Rom. 8:29; Col. 1:15) He was also the firstborn of the dead, which signifies that he was the first person to be resurrected. (Col. 1:18) broadway