CrimsonKairos

Nah, there are always a ton of anti-mormons hanging out together, he's just fine. B)

Do you mind providing the specific reference from the Talmud?

Glad you enjoyed that Adomini. I had the same reaction when I first learned it.

I have to apologize for wording that incorrectly, Dr. T. I meant to say that you didn't have to believe as I do that there's more to the parable of the Good Samaritan than meets the eye.

That's cool Dr. T. I believe Jesus was testifying of his divine mission as our Savior through the parable of the Good Samaritan. He often told things to his apostles that even they didn't get. But you certainly don't have to believe that. :)

I do believe many of Christ's parables have more than one meaning, for those with eyes to see and ears to hear. I'll give one example I learned about a few years ago. Take the parable of the Good Samaritan. All the figures and details in the parable not only teach about loving our neighbor, they also witness of Christ's role as our Savior. Let me briefly break the parable down to basics and explain what I mean. I'll assume we're all familiar with the parable, but if you need to brush up on it read Luke 10. Here we go. (1) The man who left Jerusalem to go to Jericho: the man represents each of us who enter mortality. (2) Jerusalem and Jericho: Jerusalem was the holiest city and capital of the Jewish kingdom; it is 2600 feet above seal level. It here represents heaven or the holy realm we inhabited in God's presence during our premortal existence. Jericho is 800 feet below sea level and was not considered a holy city. It here represents the fallen world we all inhabit. (3) Going down from Jerusalem to Jericho: this symbolizes our birth into mortality; we leave the holy presence of God and literally descend into the fallen world we now live in. (4) Falling among thieves, being robbed/beaten, left for dead: this represents the wages of sin, so to speak. As a result of the sins we will all commit in mortality, we lose our innocence and become spiritually dead to some degree. We need to be saved from the effects of sin as the man in the parable needed to be saved from the condition the thieves left him in. (5) The priest who passes by the wounded man: the priests were descendants of Aaron, and served in the sanctuary as mediators between God and Israel. Jesus here teaches that the Law of Moses and Aaronic priesthood cannot save us from sin, symbolized by the priest not helping the wounded man. (6) The Levite who passes by the wounded man: the Levites had less authority than priests, and did not have to be descendants of Aaron, just descendants of Levi. They assisted the priests with sacrifices and temple duties. Jesus here teaches that they cannot save us from sin either. (6) The Samaritan: Samaritans were Israelites who were carried off into pagan lands by the kingdoms of Assyria and Babylon, and who later returned with the blessings of King Cyrus. They had married non-Jews during their captivity, and were seen as "half-Jews" because of their mixed blood. The Samaritan represents Jesus. Just as Samaritans were a mix of Jew and gentile, Jesus was part God and part mortal. (7) The Samaritan rescuing the wounded man: the actions of the Samaritan in the parable are analogous to Christ's work as our Savior. He binds our wounds, anoints us with grace, heals us, and just as the Samaritan remedied the work of the thieves, Christ's atonement reverses the effects of sin for the repentant. There is more that could be said about this message within the parable. My point is that the parable of the Ten Virgins and others may in fact be teaching more than one thing at once.

I traced their IP address.

Suffering teaches us what the Spirit can't. Pain brings suffering. Pain can teach lessons and bring strength from enduring it; unfortunately, it's often an analogous relationship: the worse the pain, the more important the lesson and the more strength gained. Not all pain is intended or God's will. I know He can paint a silver lining on any cloud we encounter, though, and consecrate our afflictions for our gain.

Yeah xhenli, "troll" isn't describing the person's worth as a child of God. It labels their behavior on message boards. I do think TFS is a troll (but without the ridiculously bright neon hair that makes the toys of the same name bearable, lol). B)

Temporary comfort? That's an interesting turn of speech concerning the survival of God's Church. It wasn't about comfort. It was about being able to continue to administer the gospel and ordinances of salvation. It's not like the choice was, "Practice polygamy and live in a cardboard box, or abandon it and have a mansion." It was, "Practice polygamy and have your Church cease to exist overnight, or abandon it and retain the legal right to serve God as you choose." Comfort had nothing to do with it. Where in the world do you get that idea from? Scriptures?

I agree Fiannan.

Well said xhenli.

In response to church_girl and KOGON: God operates within the limits of His children's free agency. In other words, He doesn't force anyone to be good. I believe He guided and protected the creation of the USA as a free nation in the late eighteenth century (and during the war of 1812 to be sure). I believe a main reason He did this was to have a country open enough to allow the restoration of His Church in these latter-days. Let's pretend that once upon a time, the U.S. government said: "You cannot practice polygamy or your Church will be stripped of legal protection, financial assets and your members will be jailed." Hmmm, sounds awfully familiar. Let's translate the above threat into it's practical implications: "You can endorse polygamy as a Church, and cease to be a Church and operate as a Church...or you can abandon polygamy and continue to publicly and legally teach your gospel, administer your ordinances, and worship God according to your beliefs." Now since God isn't going to "force" the government to give legal and political support to His Church, and since His Church must be allowed to work and serve and operate freely to prepare the world for Christ's Second Coming, then the only viable option is to withdraw the requirement to live a certain law. Again, it's not about God fearing government or anything silly like that. It's that He operates within limits, and those limits are the ones we place on Him by our decisions and choices. God didn't force the Pharaoh to free Israel. He gave the Pharaoh ten pretty compelling reasons to do so (read: the plagues), but he couldn't "make" the government of Egypt do what He wanted just because He wanted it. As for changing religions with every border we cross...in many places, that's almost what we must do. It's illegal to proselyte in many countries. Hence, there are no public church buildings, no public worship services, no active missionary force, etc...

Another excellent fruit of Elder Maxell's discipleship is his work, "All These Things Shall Give Thee Experience...". It's some of the straightest talk about suffering, God, justice, etc... that I've come across, and his eloquence is hard to match.

As Outshined said, read up on your basics before you start dissecting the complex. Unless you all have a different way of analyzing/studying over there in Hawaii.

If it weren't against the law of the land, sure. Why not?

Serg, I used to respect alot of your posts, but recently, it seems someone else has taken over your account and been posting under your name. Your recent posts would make a hearty anti-mormon blush. Allow me to tally the ever-growing causes of my concern, based on your posts. You believe: (1) Joseph Smith lied about practicing polygamy (even though he told Emma); (2) Joseph Smith fabricated a revelation to satisfy his carnal urges; (3) Brigham Young led the Church astray as its prophet with polygamy, et al; (4) D&C 132 is not in fact what it says it is: a canonized revelation that means what it says; (5) Pres. Hinckley is out of tune with God on issues such as what music is appropriate in Church, whether women can have the priesthood or not, et al; (6) Your posts carry an undercurrent of psuedo-contempt for the early Church leaders, doctrines you find offensive, and current Church leadership... I could go on. I've been quiet for awhile to see if it was a passing phase with you. Maybe your mom or dad died and you're lashing out at God or something. Instead, what I see is a growing trend of rebelliousness of spirit and disrespect for those called of God and anointed to serve as His mouthpieces on earth. Why do you list LDS as your religion when you so obviously care nothing for the Church or its teachings?

I think Jesus picked corn on the sabbath because as you said, it wasn't breaking the sabbath. It was breaking a man-made law created as the "hedge" around the law, a law of man and not of God. Similarly, the "requirement" to be married before functioning as an authorized rabbi was a man-made regulation, not a law of God. Nowhere in the Old Testament is there the requirement that priests be married. So Jesus could have been married, but if he was I doubt it was to "fulfill" the pharisaic cultural norms then present in Jewish life.

You're entitled to your opinion, certainly.

Good point Dr. T.

I continue to reject this notion which seems so prevalent among LDS members. If Jesus wasn't married when he began preaching, the scribes, rabbis and other Jewish "authorities" might not have taken him seriously. But Jesus didn't care about placating the authorities. He picked corn on the sabbath (to their chagrin), etc... The New Testament records that the people were amazed at his teachings because he taught "as one having authority from God, and not as having authority from the scribes." (JST Matt. 7:29) As for your other points about Jesus marrying multiple times (some in the premortal world, some in the mortal world), it's entirely possible. It'll be interesting to find out someday. I really think that if the Lord was married, and wanted us to know about it, he would've revealed it to his Church in the D&C.

False. When we were born, the veil of forgetfulness obscured our premortal memories. Even if we agreed to several specific trials and afflictions to befall us in mortality, we would have forgotten that fact before our umbilical cord was cut. Who in the world told you otherwise? God's goodness is emphasized by the contrast with Satan's filthiness. It may be like that, but it's not what I said. I said you cannot fully appreciate something without experiencing its opposite. Chocolate may be inherently "sweet" to our tastebuds...it may not cause us to shudder upon tasting it...but we'll never grasp how sweet it is until we eat a Hershey's kiss followed by a rotten lemon. You disagree with that? And what makes goodness, good? What makes badness, bad? Obviously. I don't get what your point is. My point is simple: The depths of our personal suffering determine the heights of joy to which we can soar to. Simple. The less you have of something good, the more you appreciate that good thing. If I miss one hour of sleep at night, it may bother me but not a ton. If I go three days without sleep, you better believe I'll more fully appreciate a good night's sleep. Is this such a difficult concept? NOTE: I do not believe we knew every detail of our mortal lives before we were born. I do not believe we knew every affliction or trial we would encounter in mortality. We knew it would be hard down here on earth. That wasn't what was in question. I believe God said to some of us, "If you volunteer to be born at such time, you will face this or that trial, and will be able to help others because of it; if you don't want to be born at such time, you won't have to." Nothing mysterious or complex about it. Can I prove that I'm right? Nope. It's something I believe, based on experience. Not forcing anyone to believe God gave them such a choice.

So Serg, explain to me why you believe polygamy is philosophically unfair? p.s. polyamy is a celestial principle, God did command Joseph Smith and others to obey it, it wasn't some delusion based on scripture, etc...

Sure, your views do have logical aspects to them. As I said, I could be completely wrong. If we're going on first principles, and what we know from the gospel, consider this: The only souls who will be exalted and become gods (notice the little "g") are those who are sealed together in marriage by the authority of the priesthood. That's what D&C 132 says. Of course, they must be obedient and all the other good stuff. But they have to be married to become gods. Well wait a second. Jesus was a God in the premortal life. If he has to be subject to the same commandments we do (and I agree he does), then he would have to have been married in the premortal life. If he didn't have to be married to be a God, then there is a different set of rules for him than for us, and if that's the case, then he didn't have to get married during his mortal life as we do. If there are no different rules for him than us, then he must have been married in the premortal life, and hence there's no need for him to get married during his mortal life. Thoughts?

Wow, that's a leap. Job's friends were chastised by the Lord not because they said things about God without scriptural backing. Nice try though. They were chastised for unrighteously judging their friend. In fact, they tried to use scriptures to prove to Job that he must have transgressed some law of God, since the righteous are not chastised by God. At least, that was their thinking. So their error was not speaking of God without scriptural backing because they had that. Their folly was in assuming Job had sinned. Job 4:7-8 (Eliphaz speaking to Job explains that Job must have sinned since he's being punished by God) Remember, I pray thee, who ever perished, being innocent? or where were the righteous cut off? Even as I have seen, they that plow iniquity, and sow wickedness, reap the same. Job 6:28-30 (Job responds by asserting his innocence in the face of Eliphaz's unrighteous judgment) Now therefore be content, look upon me; for it is evident unto you if I lie. Return, I pray you, let it not be iniquity; yea, return again, my righteousness is in it. Is there iniquity in my tongue? cannot my taste discern perverse things? Job 8:3-6 (Bildad rebukes Job for asserting his innocence, since God does not punish the righteous) Doth God pervert judgment? or doth the Almighty pervert justice? If thy children have sinned against him, and he have cast them away for their transgression; If thou wouldest seek unto God betimes, and make thy supplication to the Almighty; If thou wert pure and upright; surely now he would awake for thee, and make the habitation of thy righteousness prosperous. Job 10:, 15 (Job prays to God and expresses his confusion at being punished for his obedience) Thou knowest that I am not wicked; and there is none that can deliver out of thine hand. If I be wicked, woe unto me; and if I be righteous, yet will I not lift up my head. I am full of confusion; therefore see thou mine affliction; Job 11:4-5, 13-14 (Zophar rebukes Job and urges him to repent, since again they are sure that God does not allow the righteous to suffer as the wicked) For thou hast said, My doctrine is pure, and I am clean in thine eyes. But oh that God would speak, and open his lips against thee; If thou prepare thine heart, and stretch out thine hands toward him; If iniquity be in thine hand, put it far away, and let not wickedness dwell in thy tabernacles. Job 12:2-4 (Job rejects the unrighteous judgment of his friends) No doubt but ye are the people, and wisdom shall die with you. But I have understanding as well as you; I am not inferior to you: yea, who knoweth not such things as these? I am as one mocked of his neighbour, who calleth upon God, and he answereth him: the just upright man is laughed to scorn. Job 15:4-6 (Eliphaz continues to insist that Job must be unrighteous and is foolish not to repent) Yea, thou castest off fear, and restrainest prayer before God. For thy mouth uttereth thine iniquity, and thou choosest the tongue of the crafty. Thine own mouth condemneth thee, and not I: yea, thine own lips testify against thee. Job 16:2-5, 19-20 (Job informs his friends that they are lousy comforters; he re-asserts his righteousness) I have heard many such things: miserable comforters are ye all. Shall vain words have an end? or what emboldeneth thee that thou answerest? I also could speak as ye do: if your soul were in my soul’s stead, I could heap up words against you, and shake mine head at you. But I would strengthen you with my mouth, and the moving of my lips should asswage your grief. Also now, behold, my witness is in heaven, and my record is on high. My friends scorn me: but mine eye poureth out tears unto God. Job 18:2-3, 5 (Bildad condemns Job again and repeats his unrighteous judgment) How long will it be ere ye make an end of words? mark, and afterwards we will speak. Wherefore are we counted as beasts, and reputed vile in your sight? Yea, the light of the wicked shall be put out, and the spark of his fire shall not shine. Job 20:4-5, 7, 19, 29 (Zophar continues the prosecution of Job despite his innocence) Knowest thou not this of old, since man was placed upon earth, That the triumphing of the wicked is short, and the joy of the hypocrite but for a moment? Yet he shall perish for ever like his own dung: they which have seen him shall say, Where is he? Because he hath oppressed and hath forsaken the poor; because he hath violently taken away an house which he builded not; This is the portion of a wicked man from God, and the heritage appointed unto him by God. Job 22:5-7, 9, 22-23 (Eliphaz accuses Job of sinning and tells him to repent) Is not thy wickedness great? and thine iniquities infinite? For thou hast taken a pledge from thy brother for nought, and stripped the naked of their clothing. Thou hast not given water to the weary to drink, and thou hast withholden bread from the hungry. Thou hast sent widows away empty, and the arms of the fatherless have been broken. Receive, I pray thee, the law from his mouth, and lay up his words in thine heart. If thou return to the Almighty, thou shalt be built up, thou shalt put away iniquity far from thy tabernacles. Job 42:7 (God chastises Job's friends: they have misrepresented God's dealing with Job, and unrighteously judged Job) ...the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath. So in the end, Job's friends weren't chastised for saying stuff without having scriptures to back them up. In fact, they refer to the ancient wisdom and writings of old many times in their self-righteous sermons to Job. Their problem was that they persecuted an innocent man, and used the scriptures or writings of old to justify their claims that God would not punish Job if he really were righteous. Job's story shows perfectly that sometimes bad things happen to good people, but that the Lord will consecrate our afflictions for our gain. Job ended up with twice the blessings he had before his affliction; also, he had a personal encounter with God that he wouldn't have sought during times of prosperity. He gained wealth and wisdom through suffering that he hadn't brought on himself through wickedness.