CrimsonKairos

No offense, but I don't much care about polar bears. I mean I don't wish them ill, but they're bears, not people. I say to the policiticians, let the USA drill in ANWAR or teach polar bears to pull my car. As for global warming, I say: "Heat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we fry." Ben, you crack me up. Have you ever thought of doing stand-up comedy? p.s. As for the whole Earth being flooded when the polar ice caps melt...rubbish. Water (a.k.a. H20) takes up more volume when its frozen than when it's a liquid. So, when the ice caps melt (if they ever do all the way) the water levels will go down, not up. Try it sometime and see for yourself. Take a glass and fill it halfway up with ice cubes. Then fill the rest of the glass with water until it's almost overflowing. Wait for the ice cubes to melt. The water level goes down. Surprise, surprise.

Worst eight minutes of my life. They put the "rap" in "crap."

Precisely my point. Different ethnicities...even within the same religion...live their religion differently and pass on different mores and traditions that other ethnicities don't necessarily share. Does that mean people can't get along? Nope. I think the majority of people tend to be clannish not because of skin color or what have you, but because of social routine and roles they are familiar with and value.

Godspeed dancergirl. I hope you have a wonderful time serving and learning. Remember, the path of least resistance is the path of least reward, so when it gets tough...just do what needs doing and the rest will follow. May Christ's grace walk beside, work within and go before you daily. :)

I think there's something to the "diversity weakens trust" thesis. I don't dislike anyone based on their height, age, sex or ethnicity. The fact is that different ethnicities generally come with different cultural norms, mores, rules, etc... Blacks generally act different than whites in their taste of music, clothes, etc... Well, they used to before all the white-wannabes started copying them. I can have fun hanging out with any ethnicity, if we share the same values. Often this is not the case.

To quote another post of mine...ahem: *sigh*

Sigh away, my friend...sigh away.

*sigh*

Thanks Doc.

The most compelling teaching to me is the apostasy. I define apostasy as a loss of gospel truths and valid priesthood authority. Whether there was an apostasy or not changes everything.

Correcting false doctrine involves diplomacy, which is: The art of letting someone else have your way. Specifically, how you begin the correction. Here's a bad and a good way to correct false doctrine. BAD: "That's wrong. The Bible says the exact opposite, and we have to be accurate about doctrine." GOOD: "I've heard that alot, and only recently read such-and-such that says it's the other way around." Basically, coming across as equal instead of omniscient. If I'm in error, I always appreciate being corrected but in a kind way. I love teaching, and think I've gotten fairly skilled at correcting errors and keeping everyone comfortable. Another great technique is to call on someone you know is doctrinally "smart" and ask them what they think, i.e. "Hey Bob, what are your thoughts about this?"

Gotcha.

Really Jason? As a missionary, you never taught that Jesus is the father of heaven and earth since he created them? Or that we are adopted as his sons and daughters when we're spiritually reborn? I thought those were pretty common beliefs?

all quotes about kwanzaa in this post come from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kwanzaa I'm not too interested in becoming an expert on kwanzaa to explore this issue further. My point was that its founder seemed to think Christmas was primarily a caucasian holiday, and there needed to be a black one too: In 1967, a year after Karenga proposed this new holiday, he publicly espoused the view that "Jesus was psychotic" and that Christianity was a white religion that blacks should shun. Sounds a little separatist. This despite many Ethiopic Christians believing Jesus was actually black. Also is this little line that hints at separating blacks from the "dominant society" through social, economic and political tactics: These principles correspond to Karenga's notion that "the seven-fold path of blackness is think black, talk black, act black, create black, buy black, vote black, and live black." Of course it was originally a dismissal of whites (not that I care). Look at Karenga's ideology in forming the holiday: (1) Christmas is a "white" holiday; (2) Jesus and his "white" followers are psychotic; (3) Kwanzaa emphasizes blacks sticking with other blacks (see the above sevenfold path of blackness) and disdaining Christmas and it's caucasian associations. PC, you're smarter than that. That's not what I was saying. I was saying that all you hear about is how big bad colonial America and many of its Founding Fathers held slaves and were boorish racists who started a country built on slaves' backs and we can never get past that or move on from that....yet slavery still exists today. It doesn't matter that it's primarily blacks and Arabs enslaving blacks...the point is slavery still exists and no one of cultural clout or political importance does anything about slavery other than to metaphorically sling mud at the Statue of Liberty, while turning a blind eye to Sudan. Gimme a break. There's no antagonism. There's frustration that people who are so "educated" about America's ugly past with slavery, are ignorant of its continued practice today in Sudan, Mauritania, et al. And those who are aware of it (even leaders of the black community) won't touch the issue because it might be seen as anti-Arab. What I say to that, then, is don't give me crap about what slave-holders did hundreds of years ago to your ancestors in America, if you're not interested in stopping slavery today. In case there's confusion, I am not racist. I value every child of God regardless of skin tone or country of origin. In fact the one sister I baptized on my mission in Kentucky was an amazingly faithful African-American woman. Even though Christmas has largely pagan origins, I agree that now its why you celebrate it that's important. Similarly, though Kwanzaa's founder might have been somewhat of an anti-white anti-Christian guy, Christian and non-Christian AA's can celebrate Kwanzaa for their own reasons without being separatists or anti-Christian, just as Christians who celebrate Christmas aren't pagans.

Precisely. Few know about this modern day example of slavery in our "enlightened" age, a day when the U.N. and international relationships "flourish" and backward traditions like slavery have "disappeared." Yet the USA is continually berated for our history with slavery...dealings that ended for all intents and purposes in the 19th century. Whatever. An interesting article is here: http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_...v47/ai_17443644 Excerpts: Sudanese Bishop Macram Max Gassis told delegates Sudan's Islamic fundamentalist regime "encouraged slavery" and had declared holy war on non-Muslim Sudanese. He was joined by Harlem activists and by historian John Henrik Clarke. The "rapidly expanding Arab slave trade" accompanied the "spread of Islamic fundamentalism," Clarke noted in videotaped remarks. "It is odd that very few people in the Western world are saying anything about" present-day slavery. The plight of these slaves has moved grass-roots blacks in New York but has yet to rouse the liberal press and the black civil-rights leaders into action. Journalists who fought apartheid are silent now that the oppressors aren't Westerners. Black American spiritual leaders are likewise passive. "For two years we tried to get Rev. Jackson on the record against slavery," says Charles Jacobs. He "returned our document packages unopened. A staff person told us that Jackson wouldn't touch the issue because it seemed anti-Arab." Jackson wouldn't even give Cotton a statement. He "is busy with affirmative action," an aide explained. "Right now, slavery is not on his agenda." Some Congressional Black Caucus members seem keener on seeking reparations for slavery of centuries past than on ending current bondage. When representatives of 25 relief groups met in Washington last year to step up pressure on the Sudanese government, the Caucus was noticeably absent.

If African-Americans (AA hereafter) have a problem with slavery, they shouldn't take it out primarily on the USA. I wonder who sold those slaves to the people who shipped them here from Africa? Oh, wait, it was the Muslims with the trans-Saharan slave-trade (among others). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery http://www.christianaction.org.za/articles...geofSlavery.htm http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/med/lewis1.html http://africanhistory.about.com/library/weekly/aa040201a.htm http://africanhistory.about.com/library/weekly/aa080601a.htm So instead of taking it out on Christmas and caucasians, AA's should celebrate Kwanzaa during Ramadan to separate themselves from the Muslim traditions of their ancient captors.

Thanks Maureen.

That's always an option, but if someone had to choose, they'd probably opt for consulting the canonized revelations of God such as the Book of Mormon (the keystone of our religion) and the D&C (the capstone). Why have such disdain for the canon? Actually what I said was that if you gave me a reference I'd have an idea what scriptural reason you had for believing that women participated in the temple ordinances in Old Testament times. I wasn't asking you to convince me, I was asking you to inform me. God told me that we're both right...He also added that we're talking about different things.

Now you're making Rosie and I sound stupid. We never said to believe someone just because they said so. But you know that. We said that if we've gained a testimony of a certain passage of scripture, it can be helpful to point that scripture out to someone else and encourage them to find out if it's true. But we never, ever said we or anyone else believes something just because someone wrote it. You said it best though: You don't believe what anyone else tells you. So why the shmeck should we believe what you tell us? Isn't that a waste of your time, just as it's a waste of your time to read our words since it's us and not God doing the talking?

Rosie, you took the words right outta my mouth. B)

1 Nephi 19:22-23 Now it came to pass that I, Nephi, did teach my brethren these things; and it came to pass that I did read many things to them, which were engraven upon the plates of brass, that they might know concerning the doings of the Lord in other lands, among people of old. And I did read many things unto them which were written in the books of Moses; but that I might more fully persuade them to believe in the Lord their Redeemer I did read unto them that which was written by the prophet Isaiah; for I did liken all scriptures unto us, that it might be for our profit and learning. I guess Nephi had it all wrong...instead of reading dead words to his brothers, he should've just told them to ask God if they could succeed. That would've worked just fine. Good going Nephi, pfffffffff, wasting time with reading the scriptures.

Or the missionary program, seriously. Consider your notice filed away, Ray. I won't ask you anymore why you believe what you believe. Fair enough.

Hahahah Jason, classic. I needed a good laugh, thanks.

I can't continue this discussion anymore. My head has exploded. Your illogical excuses, inability to stay on topic, and backpedaling have caused my brain to melt. Enough with the sanctimonious crap Ray...we all know...we all know...that you know only God can teach us truth. Stop, stop, stop putting that line in every post, it gets ridiculously old real fast. Enough already. Enough. If you can't find something else to say, don't say anything at all. We've heard it a thousand times. Come up with something new to add. p.s. I'm really pissed off today because of something, but even if I weren't I'd still say the same stuff. I'm not going to apologize, nor give excuses, nor anything other than what I've typed. I know there are at least a dozen other people who've been thinking the same thing for a loooooooooooooooong time now.

Telling you how a rational person would respond when asked why they believe what they do in regards to the gospel; they'd provide scriptures. I wonder if you'd have ever joined the Church if the missionaries teaching you just said, "Jesus visited the Nephites. It's true. Just grab the Book of Mormon and look through till you find it. Oh, and there's this cool promise about how to know if the Book of Mormon is true...but again, we won't tell you where it is or how to know if its true. You can find it yourself." How did you know? Ummmm, I'd absolutely LOVE to Ray, but when you don't give me scriptures to compare your words to, I'm kinda' unable to do that, yes? I'll call you out on the carpet whenever you say something stupid. Don't tell me I won't believe something even if I read it...that was crap and don't play the victim when I tell you so. And when did I say you had to try to make me believe you? Providing someone with evidence doesn't mean you're trying to prove your case...merely that you're trying to show it's reasonable. Stop being ridiculous. Yes, when you tell someone you believe something and they ask why, a reasonable, rational, mature person points to what supports their belief. Again, if you didn't have scriptural backing for your theory, you should've just said so. There, thank you, that's what I'm talking about. Was that so hard? p.s. If you don't have evidence at hand when I ask you why you believe something, it's entirely acceptable to say, "Gee, I don't know right now. Give me a day or two and I'll get back to you." I promise I won't think anything fishy is going on.