HiJolly

I believe that the ages of the patriarchs (which Bishop Ussher used for the chronology that first placed Adam & Eve at 4004BC) is not meant to be taken literally, but is a result of the Hebrew/Jewish mystics embedding hidden meaning in their ages via gematria (a mystical numbering system that provides spiritual insights to those who know the code, and who meditate on the possible meanings). Many Christians, even most, are convinced that Ussher was correct and the ages were meant to be literal(even though most haven't even heard of him). I'm not stuck on it, though, myself. Joseph guessed the earth was billions of years old, (at least 1.5b, if I recall correctly), which is much closer than Ussher, IMO. HiJolly

I like Doc S's response, but being a raving egotist, I must say that the problem is the methodology employed by the scientific method(SM). What fun about THAT, is that the father of the SM is Renee Decartes, who received it from AN ANGEL. I love to point that out to the scientific types, who then say, "aah, well, actually Popper is the father of SM..." ...sure, sure... scientific method of gaining knowledge ("It's aliiiiivve!!" --Dr. Frankenstein) PRO: Works really well to investigate assumptions about physical reality CON: Cannot deal with subjective or personal reality; cannot explain spiritual experiences or 'God'. Challenge: Must work on observation, measurement, experimentation, controlling environments, eliminating the unknown through testing. "God did it" is anathema and is not allowed. Science freely admits it is not capable of dealing with God. While we as members of the Gospel know that "all truth can be circumscribed into one great Whole", nevertheless, scientific truth is never going to take us there (*I* don't think, anyway). It HAS taken us far, though, and I think it's pretty wonderful, myself. Just don't use a hammer to darn your socks, if you know what I mean... HiJolly

I don't know the rules for missionaries, but we usually accepted dinner. For financial donations, we fill out a donation slip (found by the clerk's office on the outer wall, usually) and put it in an evelope. Only a member of the Bishopbric can accept the donation. Most missionaries will tell you you can't give them money, but again, I don't know the current rules. HiJolly

Okay. God be with you! HiJolly

Me too. I love the truth also, and it led me to the questioning. But Heavenly Father made sure that before I could question too much, I KNEW He was real. So I guess I feel like I'm cheating, sometimes. There but for the Grace of God would go I, an incipient agnostic or atheist. But since I do know something of HF, I feel greatly blessed. My love for truth has taught me much, and brought me to the realization (within myself) that there is something even better, more important than truth (although, without truth I don't think I'd ever come to this realization) --- it is Love. Of course the scriptures say that, but I finally came to it of myself, which is really cool. Anyway, Welcome! HiJolly

James E. Talmage wrote in the beginning of "Jesus the Christ" that all the names we have for God are really not names - they are titles. I realize that Jesus the Christ is not scripture, and therefore not doctrine, but I believe that his view is correct. And the Son inherits much from the Father, including titles. FWIW. Another point. This LDS Forum has a lot of investigating and otherwise new-to-the-gospel folks participating. I'd hate to be responsible for teaching something that is not scripturally defensable, particularly when it pertains to the nature of God and the things of eternity. In this, a PUBLIC setting, caution is called for, demanded, even. OTOH, in our personal persuits, there is no limit. In the book of Mormon, we have excellent examples of writers having beautiful truths which cannot be written. They stop and say "I was going to write more, but the Spirit constraineth me". Not because it's impossible, (though there is some of that, the ineffible, to be sure), and not because they're not true; but because it is to be taught by the Holy Ghost alone, to each of our Heavenly Father's children, as they are ready to receive it. We are promised in the Doctrine & Covenants that we will be taught by members of the Church of the Firstborn, if we grow in the Gospel and honor our covenants (paraphrasing, I admit). We all know at least one member of that Church, and that is the Holy Ghost. He is the perfect teacher, for what He teaches to us, is then KNOWN to us. Gnosis, if you will. This is all my opinion, of course, and if anyone takes exception to it, I'd like to know. HiJolly

Ok. I wish I could play the piano. I've tried and guess I didn't have the patience. Well, I don't blame you, and you're not being rude. I met bjw & his grandmother on the grounds of the Conference Center between sessions of conference, so it was pretty kosher. But that's fine. Better safe than sorry. HiJolly

I appreciate your helpful tone, and willingness to share. That said, though, I'm hoping you won't say much more about that. I know some LDS really get dogmatic about this stuff, I've heard if for decades, but it isn't in scripture and thus needs to take a backseat to the doctrines of the Church that are based in scripture. Everyone benefits when we recognize speculation for what it is. If you claim it is not speculation, then it is a mystery that has been revealed to you, and has not yet been revealed to the Church. As such, it is not your place to declare it, but the Prophet's. If he chooses not to so declare, then just be patient. And keep it to yourself. HiJolly This is very good advice, HiJolly. Let's try and keep this discussion focused on what we do know, and what is taught by the Church, rather than delving into things that have not. Honos

Happens to me all the time. I have found out that HF doesn't want to just give me answers -- He wants me to sweat and work for answers. I think I can count the direct answers I've rec'd on one hand. And that's over 45 years of asking. (more or less). If I've really got my shorts in a bind, He'll make sure I get the message - but only ONCE did he answer directly and with power, in a timely way (and even then, it was weeks in the making). I know a couple of people that say that God hasn't ever answered their prayers. Don't know what to say, except I could claim that myself for many years, but did not. I saw in my life many answers that MIGHT have come from HF in a really round-about way. Now, after more experience, I know they were answers from HF. They just didn't come the way I expected and/or wanted them to. This happens to one of my sons quite a bit. He simply can't judge things by the spirit, and gets himself into trouble THINKING he's following the spirit. All I can say is, if you know you're "challenged", you gotta take extra precautions. Like if you know you easily get lost driving to a new place in town, you take maps, looking it up on mapquest or whatever. I have found that Mormonism is a very practical religion. It's about doing what works in life. Thank HF!! Faith is not like many people think, IE, screwing up your face in concentration and making something happen. That's not what it is. JS taught that faith is a principle of ACTION. If you eat food, you have faith that it will nourish you (or taste good & make you fat ). If you have faith in the Church, you participate. If you have faith in God, you try to obey the commandments. JS also taught that faith is a gift from HF to those who try to do what's right. It goes in degrees. Hope these comments help--- HiJolly

My question would be, it's such an expensive thing to travel that far -- will you really do it if you wait? Why? I hope you do come to SLC for Conference, now or then. If you or your husband are musically inclined, I would like to know. Also, I'd like to meet with you two, personally, since I'm in the SLC area. I met with BJW not too long ago, and I think we all enjoyed the visit. It was right before he went through the temple for the first time. Anyway, hope to see you! HiJolly

Yes, there are several, including Yediyd, who was a baptist (her dad was a minister). HiJolly

Excellent point. Nephi nailed it when he said to liken the scriptures to ourselves. Totally agree w/ your point. HiJolly

I agree with jwhitlock, too. Also, much in the OT was written "after the manner of the learning of the Jews" (paraphrase) and so if you don't know their system, it tends to get way confusing. The Song of Solomon, for example, can't really be understood without a knowledge of Jewish mysticism, IMO. I used to believe the 'ordinances' thing about the earth. I now have a really hard time believing it. It is NOT scriptural, and is NOT LDS originally. The idea was first found in nineteenth century protestantism, IIRC. I believe in a local flood only. The evidence against a global flood is overwhelming. Symbolically, though, there is a ton of truth to be found in the Flood stories of the ancient world. This opinion of mine is contrary to the majority of the LDS membership, and is actively frowned on in the Church, so I usually don't say anything about it. HiJolly

I was born to Mormon (LDS) parents, and was taught to believe in Joseph Smith as a prophet, Jesus Christ as THE Savior, Heavenly Father as the source of all my blessings and the only One to pray to. Also was taught the Church (Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints) was the only true Church on earth, and that I should pay tithing to the Church and that I should obey the commandments, including going to Church every Sunday. I did that. And Heavenly Father (HF) started to let me know he was out there. He has answered my prayers in dreams, in the Still Small Voice (Holy Ghost), in 'coincidences' that were too amazing to just be chance, by pure intelligence, by profound feelings. He has also preserved my life in a substantial, impossible to ignore way. I love the Gospel of Jesus Christ as taught in the LDS church, as it includes all truth and makes me very, very happy. Some members (as in all churches, I suppose) are a bit narrow-minded and provincial, but I don't let them ruin my love affair with the Spirit. I am a kind of mystical Mormon, which is a bit of a contradiction, as Mormonism focuses primarily on all things in Manifestation; focuses on practical Christianity. Let me know if you have more questions. HiJolly

Reminds me of the NT scripture ...and who can believe, except they be taught? And who can teach, except they be sent? (paraphrase) IOW, to some extent the practice of faith requires hearing something to have faith in. Christ taught us how to know what we hear is true (or false)--- by trying it through our actions. If we believe it is good, then as we live it personally, the Spirit can lead us on, or turn us back. Practical religion at its best! http://scriptures.lds.org/en/2_kgs/2/23#23 you can read about Elisha's action there. Make you wonder, doesn't it? I recommend you follow the links Loudmouth posted on Joseph from FAIR. Good stuff. I find it fascinating to look at apparent contradictions, and attempt to reconcile the same. It stretches me, teaches me, helps me grow. Joseph once said "By proving contraries, truth is made manifest." It is interesting to note in your first scripture (Exodus) Moses can't see his face, but he can see God's backside. Symbolic? I think probably so. Joseph said he was amazed that the trees around him didn't burst into flame, when he saw God. I have an ancestor that saw the Savior (not the Father), and he said he felt as though the flesh would melt from his bones. I think it has to do with the Glory of God. Here's a scripture from the Pearl of Great Price: Moses 1: 11. 11 But now mine own eyes have beheld God; but not my natural, but my spiritual eyes, for my natural eyes could not have beheld; for I should have withered and died in his presence; but his glory was upon me; and I beheld his face, for I was transfigured before him. The book of Moses was revealed to Joseph by prophecy, FYI. Watch out, you're starting to sound kinda heretical! It's like most things. What we don't understand, we fear. Did you know that according to the dictionary, ANY church or religion is a "cult"? Click here for an example Uh oh. Some Mormons do, but not if they are observant in the religion (unless medical need necessitates it). You cannot attend the temple if you don't live the Word of Wisdom, which prohibits coffee, tea, tobacco and alcohol (and habit-forming substances). The temple is not where we go to church on Sunday, it is a place where we are taught the "higher law". Kolob is the name given a star, close to the seat of God in the heavens. I don't know what to think about it. Maybe its symbolic? People said a lot of stuff about a lot of things, but you can't understand everthing, just like you can't see God except as He wills it. The Pearl of Great Price is online here . (did you know to click on the word 'here'?). There's gotta be a 1800 number you can order it on, but I don't know the number. It takes a lot of guts (and faith) to look into things that people around you fear. good on you. Here's another of my fav. quotes: "To go against the dominant thinking of your friends, of most of the people you see every day, is perhaps the most difficult act of heroism you can have." --Theodore H. White, American political writer 1915 - 1986 HiJolly

Welcome! Look forward to your participation. Your excellent comment reminds me of a favorite quote: "Living with ambiguity is a form of intellectual honesty, of humility. It is only when we admit that we don't know that we are receptive to what lessons may be taught. In some strange way, it also brings an inner peace since we are no longer fighting reality to maintain our inner fantasies on how things should be. While I am characterizing it as an intellectual process, it also has spiritual implications, since only an open mind is capable of hearing God." -- Andy Piereder HiJolly

I agree, and I thank you for the reply. HiJolly

Yes indeed (though I hadn't heard about the Carbon-14 thing - got a reference?) in science, there is no FINAL word, only the latest word. Everything is up for review, all the time. If it can't be objectively measured or independently repeated, then it's not science. HiJolly

Hi deblldo! Good questions, but I think you'd get more interaction, more views from people on your questions, if you'd open new discussion threads in the "learn about Mormonism" area. Also, we are not allowed to argue, but of course everyone can have their own opinion. So with that said... I think we should carefully consider what a prophet is, or what a prophet is supposed to do. I think most people today have let the movies and televangelists define things to the extent that we don't understand the terms biblically anymore. For example, prophets are not perfect (take Jonah for example, or, the guy who when the children teased him for being bald cursed them and a bear came and killed them). Joseph wasn't perfect either. He said some things would happen that did not. This also happened to some biblical prophets. It's important to not build up prophets too much. They are people who hear the word of God, and are called to pronounce that word (or some task) before the world. They are as human as anyone else. You mean Stephen didn't see God? He said he did, if I recall correctly... And Moses, too. That's one from each Testiment. I'm curious why you would say no one in the Bible has. Why would you say that? Yes, he did change his ways. After a bit. But I really don't agree that he was ever a fraudster. Where did you hear this, and what is the evidence for the idea? Have you read the latest book on Joseph's life, Rough Stone Rolling by Richard Bushman, a history professor emeritus at Columbia University? (and LDS church member) Joseph was a young man in a specific cultural setting that we do not see today. The more I learn about him, the more I respect what he did and how he did it. He was not perfect, but I don't believe he was a fraud either. I believe he really did see God, and became a true prophet. Again, please continue the dialog, but I recommend you post each question as a new thread in the "learn about Mormonism" area of this web site. HiJolly

Lynn, I would like a more direct response from you on this. We know you started out non-LDS, but I do believe you were once a baptized LDS Church member. True? HiJolly

Yes. Ok. My bad on the wording. HiJolly

Not to my understanding, though I'm sure there are a lot of people that may disagree with me. I think if we take the long term view and trust in God, there's nothing to worry about. I mean, there is a lot that will happen in life, and in the after-life, and our understanding of all that is pretty dim, overall. Marriage is an earthly ordinance, but we (LDS) have figured out that we can do vicarious work for the dead, whereby they can be baptised and married. So, I think everything can be worked out in the end. Can be. Hope springs eternal! HiJolly

We had the lesson in High Priest's group - we watched the Spiritual Crocodiles video and discussed it. I think maybe two sentences were read out of the manual, and the rest was discussion. Pretty normal for our Group. HiJolly

Well, I have no idea. But I want to say something, so I'll relate a family story... (Isn't that how it works with old people?) I have a great-uncle who was the leader of the Church in the polygamist Mexican colonies (Pacheco, Juarez, Diaz, etc.) and he was not a polygamist. He heard this principle preached time after time, and never became a polygamist. Later, be became a councilor in the First Presidency of the Church under President Heber J. Grant. When asked why he never became a polygamist, he said that he never felt inspired by God that it was right for him to do. And obviously his approach didn't hurt him in church leadership, not in the least. FYI, three out of my four great-grandparents's marriages were polygamous. One was a fantastic success, two were pretty good. My last relative who was a church-approved polygamist died in 1976, when I was a teenager. A great-great-grandparent got carried away in his practices of polygamy and had to be ex'd. (just for background) HiJolly

I think the answer is 'no'. To explain it is not really easy, because of necessity anything "pre-mortal" is somewhat foggy and unclear. I mean, the effect of the veil. We are taught that all things have intelligence, and that would include you, me, and Christ. This intelligence is eternal and co-equal with God, and for that matter may BE God in a sense. As I said, this stuff is not easily understood by we mortals. Section 93 of the Doctrine & Covenants is really cool but you need the spirit in spades to understand it. Oh, and my opinion is that section 132 is pretty advanced, and contains some doctrine that we don't have the context for in 2007, like they had in 1830/40-whatever. So be careful trying to force it into a 2007 box, if you know what I mean. HiJolly