Snow

Take that curvette!

Note: Hey Trident, I see you lurking there. This could bew interesting. These "christians" might hold you in the same low esteem they hold The Church of Jesus Christ.

Ya think? Maybe a little bit. BTW, those shoes kinda make me dizzy. Listen White Mountain, If you have something to say about my smoking hot feet, you had better say it up front. I'm kinda funny that way.

Ya think?It just that I have read a half dozen of serapha's posts. I think I know the drill much better than he/she does. I know what it takes to make the kind of argument that serapha makes and I know how easy it easy to rebutt, I also know the comeback to the rebuttal that serapha will make, I also know how to illuminate the dishonesty in the spin and demostrate the hypocrisy inherrent in the position.... Besides. I can't really condescend to anyone unless they allow me to

Is that the spin you want to stick with? Cuz I can think of a much more honest way to put it.

Oh sure, go right ahead and post. Break the rules if you like, were easy to get along with.Personally I don't think you have what it takes (to make your case) but don't let my humble opinion slow you down...

Have a problem with what?I appreciate your comments on this thread and hear what you are saying but I'm not sure where your headed now. My thinking in making the post was: -some might think the Bishop overstepped his bounds -my daughter is a fairly well-trained clear thinker and listens to other opinions and then decides herself -I thought it was funny that the Bishop said it was good to date "lots of boys" but not exclusively unless he was a returned missionary -- his advice was good but the returned missionary part was about 3 to 5 years premature.

Could not agree less, and this is the great thing about being Mormon.Religion is not a narrow thing. It is an attempt to understand theology - God and his workings. Under theology, all things fall. Science is a subset of religion or better said, of theology. If there is a disconnect between science and religion it is because one or the other has got it wrong or we are two dense to understand the connection. Being Mormon, my only obligation is to truth (and to brush three times daily). I am not obligated to believe anything that turns out to not be true out of some sense of orthodoxy. And I disagree also with the part that religion is inspiring but science is not, it only informs. Look at one of those detailed new photos peering out into the deep recesses of the universe and try to fathom the countless galaxies each with their billion of stars and tell me that isn't inspiring and enriching: http://www.ccastronomy.org/photo_tour_HST_..._DeepField2.jpg (the high defintion pictures come in up to 66 megs. This one is low res.

Does anyone remeber Shasta, the Liger from the Hogel Zoo in SLC - the only half lion, half tiger born in captivity.Bless her heart she is dead now, but you can see her stuffed carcass in the cat house at the zoo.

Right, you're a scientist so let me ask you. Is the particular motion of the incarnated portions of the unparticled matter a part of thought that impels permeation or am I just randomly combining words to see if anyone will notice how nonsensical this is?

Bite me.

Peace, You're speaking gibberish and at the bare minimum you are confusing absolute coalescence as an absolute density. That doesn't even begin to make sense if rarified matter is infinitely accumulative. Can you rephrase it an put it in the context of self-cognizant ratiocination?

What's confusing. Although six branches inside a stake is unusual, it can happen. What can't happen is a ward without a stake.

Well for pity's sake, then let's ignore the atheist and check with the believers:The Encyclopaedia Biblica, a work written by theologians, the greatest biblical reference work in the English language, says: "We cannot perhaps venture to assert positively that there was a city of Nazareth in Jesus' time." But whether there was or wasn't is not the issue. The issue is whether or not Jesus existed and was/is God or the Son of God. I defy you, Stephen, to give a single, solid piece of evidence - you know, the kind of evidence that you demand of the BoM - that Jesus lived, was born of a virgin, converted water to wine and was the Son of God? Come on now, don't be a Tannercrite.

I still think I said it correctly.Wards only exist where there are stakes. Branches usually exist where there are districts instead of stakes but that there may be branches inside of a stake too.

That line of reasoning is interesting. I wonder how it plays into the humility aspect I was talking about.Here are some thoughts: I think many of the tesitmonies in the Church are a result of inculcation and aculterization (not a real word), rather than true spiritual connectivity - there are those, many of those, that truly have had a spiritual confirmation of ... whatever has been confirmed. I think that such confirmation comes one of two main ways: 1. Deep rooted change, as in conviction, often accompany a profound, motivating life experience or incident(s). Often the change in an addict or alcoholic comes AFTER something very important and cental to their view experiece whacks em on the head. Crisis leads to humility leads to being prepared leads to asking for help (or asking for a testimony/conversion) leads to receiving a confirmation... 2. Persistence and continued willingness to learn, sometimes over the course of many years, lead to an expansion of the mind and expansion of the heart (the heart being a receptivity to spiritual matters). One great appreciation I have for the gospel is how logical it (the LDS understood gospel) seems to my intellectual side - the eternal nature of matter and intelligence - free and moral agency as THE integral part of the plan of salvation that both requires an atonement and makes the atonement efficacious - families - God and sharing of his diety... ...I don't know if Jared had a brother or if polygamy is a true and correct eternal principle. What I do know, with a great deal of passionate faith, is that the gospel itself, as taught within the Church is as true as anything else in my life. Maybe one day I'll receive a witness on individual pieces of the puzzle but for now I try and keep my eye on the gestalt.

K Trident, Here's some serious answers to your 4 points. 1. pointed out that the Pentecostals are growing more rapidly than the Mormons. You are pentecostal-ISH yourself. It isn't a measure of truth but it is a measure of how many people are able to develop a rewarding connection to God through such and such movement. Good for whoever is able to follow a religion that makes thier lives better. 2. The point about oppression is that collective persecution forges unity. There is quantitative and qualitative difference to Mormons. Some socialogist refer to Mormons as a seperate and distinct "people" - not based on color or nationality, but based on their identification with the religon and culture. Unity is powerful. It is not a minor point. 3. Maybe you are unfamiliar with Govenor Bogg's (of Missouri) extermination order that allowed Mormons to be legally shot on sight. Fortunately not everyone was as evil minded as Boggs to actually follow through on what he intended but Mormons have, by modern Western standards, an unusual history of suffering and persecution. To compare them to the ancient Christian Church is not really the point. Most Christian's lives are not noticibly affected by the persecution suffered by early Christians, it doesn't define them the way our recent heritage defines us. 4. Belonging to an institution is not the point being addressed in the salvation issue. It is a matter of whether ordinances, such as baptism, are required and whether authority, held by the clergy of the institution are required to perform the ordinance. But specific to the question of defining salvation... that means different things to Mormons. For example, we believe that you are going to be saved.

Obviously some Mormons wouldn't like it either, judging by the response here, but I have always been blessed either with good leaders or the good sense not to care to much if they don't do their job perfectly. I kind of view it all (the Church) as one giant family with all the love, fighting, crazy uncles and drama that any large and enthusiatic family might have.Spencer, Thanks for the kind words.

That's odd but is a non-issue for me or my kids. Since it isn't the Bishop that allows or restricts physical movement, who cares what they say about it.It's like my manicurist telling me that she won't permit me to join the Moose Lodge. That's odd but who cares?

I don't think that anything I said is different than what you are saying, except, though a Bishop's current duties may be the same as a Branch Pres, I believe they hold different keys... isn't a Bishop also called to serve as a judge in Zion?

PD, Not sure what to say other than nice work with a few clever phrases in your post (she-bears and what not). Thinking about the larger issue of spiritual confirmation for a moment - I think it is somehow tied into the issue of pride, and the necessity to subjugate it. It seems, logically that since the glory of God is intelligence that therefore the more you learn, intellectually, and the more yu reason, logically, that the closer you would grow to God and thus the closer you would be to the spiritual confirmation you seek. Perhap the paradox is that you must apply all the mental faculties that make logical sense and then do just the opposite and humble your intellect - leap of faith - and then the miracle comes.

If I were interested in showing that the Stephen was just a big a hypocrite as the Tanners, I think I might start out something like this:AP 11:45PM In a stunning development it has been learned that Jonah was really swallowed by a whale and donkeys really do talk...

Lessee,Stephen is propping a "ministry" (odd choice of words for something created to attack) that seeks to harm the gospel and then he attack Peace (and me) cuz we think that such ugly behavior is reprehensible. Stephen, you ought to have your noggin dehisced and defenestrate whatever is causeing you to side with such repulsive and rebarbative daddock. You act like it is our fault that people like the Tanners sink to such depths.

Well Peace, which is it, or neither? If neither can you please explain how idiosyncratic organs affect the scope of nervous centres?

Cal,Refer to the Recollections of Orasmus Turner; the Family Memoir of Lucy Smith, William Smith on Mormonism p. 5, Anderson; Early Account, p157 Jesse; Joseph Smiths First Vision, Backman. or Smith own and numerous accounts. ...and you references to JS joining the Methodist Church in getting way less than genuine at this point. You have no evidence that he did, other than his name on a class list and you have failed to address the evidence and arguments to the contrary.