Snow

No, it's that I'm on moderated status and my posts take a while to show up. Trident,That put your comment in another context then. Thanks for the backhanded compliment I guess. Jenda, Ave IQ is 85 to 114 making 100 the mean.

I noticed that you read this yesterday but kept quiet on it until after I corrected it.

Cal, Peace is right. I'm talking to her. I doubt that you were to offending by the swine reference. You did what I would have done - tried to make him feel guilty so as to gain the upper hand in the debate. I am not complaining about that or about your motives. I just think threatenng the kid with moderator discipline over the pearls and swine comment is unnecessary.

What games? Are you saying that it is not known and accepted that he was a murder. Obivously you accept that he was, else you would have stated your opinion instead or repeatedly ignoring the question. A more interresting question is why do you want me to provide proof of something that you already believe? Although you intellectually accept that a murderer like PR played a significant role in LDS hx, it is important to you to maintain some plausible deniability, as if the lack of a murder conviction somehow supports the Church's case. The fact that Porter died before being convicted, on his last charge has nothing to do with if he actually committed the crime. It is just a hook to hang your plausible deniability on. Odd that you would attach such significane to something everyone else accepts. Again, you want me to go to the trouble of providing evidence - then you have to put something into the kitty - in this case, a bit of you credibility. Do you believe that PR was not a murderer?

Right Cal, I agree there are lots of smart Mormons. I am familiar with the Mormon scientist topic as well as with at least one gu'ys criticism of it which is on lds-mormon.com. There is a difference between IQ and education (I work with a bunch of idiot Drs, not all are, just some) but generally speaking accomplished people in fields like science have a higher IQ than average - not stopping here to discuss the merits of IQ measurements - however, I think you would have your work cut out for you in correlatng high production of scientists within Mormonism to higher general Mormon IQs. For example, it could be that more of the smart Mormons (in this case Utah Mormons) go into science (instead of other high achievement fields) than in other states or religions and the reason for that may be cultural...

I'm glad that you recognize that my arguing with you about faith and reason is mostly an acadmic exercise. Faith (and the Spirit) cannot supplant reason and fact. In LDS philosophy, they are required to go together. In actual LDS practice, there are implementation problems and we are asked to suspend reason or so it sometimes seems.You know what I do? If a question is raised - say like a worldwide ancient flood - I have my academic opinion and if it is out of whack with the orthodox Church opinion (which there may not even be one) then I adopt the attitude that it is non-essential for salvation and therefore any opinion of the Brethren need not have been inspired, even if there thought it was inspired. Non-critical to salvation = non-issue. Now, on something like the translation of the Book of Mormon, I think that what is known is consistent with a divine process. It doesn't prove it, but it is plausible - for me, so I adopt it as a matter of faith. Other's disagree and that's fine, either they don't have faith or they different reasoning tools. However Cal, I do believe that the Spirit is real and imparts knowledge. I believe that I have been on the receiving end of that knowledge. You call it emotion. I agree that much of it is, even for myself, but I also believe that there is a qualitative difference to the Spirit. Unfortunately, unless you have experienced the mystery, you don't know what I know - so to speak. Leap of faith my friend...

OHHH! Now I see the problem. The study was about life expectancy and I inadvertantly substituted intelligence. It was a simple mistake and I apologize. I tried to make it obvious by adding in as potential causes of higher IQ, moral superiority and recognition of eternal truth. Cal, I don't know if you have a point or not but I would guess that Mormons read more than non-Mormons, generally and reading from an early age probably plays a part in the development of early IQ. If there is any real statistical difference, I doubt that it would be so large. The cynic in me would love to see such a study, by religion. I think there is some data about religion and education: Either way, I think it would go something like this: Jewish, LSD, Atheists Liberal Protestantism, Angelican Catholic Muslims Conservative Protestantism Pentecostals and Charismatics Here's the real story: http://www.seniorheadlines.com/index.php3?...ge&id_art=73062

Stop threatening people into submission. He didn't called anyone a pig, he referenced a biblical scripture about pearls and swine and Cal deliberately inferred (and incorrectly) from it that he, Cal, was the swine in question in an sarcastic attempt to make the whippersnapping feel contrite so that Cal could have the moral high ground in the next go-round if Porter falls for it. If you keep moving topics of the busy forum and keep stiffling discussion, pretty soon you'll be successful.

Look at me. Look right at my foreheand. Do you see what is stamped there?It says KING for a reason Cal.

A pig? You got off easy Cal. He called me an "ignorant, base, fool!" Look Cal,You're a scientistiffic type. You of all people should be aware of the research that cleary show while while Curvette is one of the better ones, she is not THE BEST. At her current rate of progress, she will not become THE BEST until 2087 (January 3), assuming of course that nitrogen levels remain constant.

Oh, I know what you did SRM, but I'm not inclined to evidence to support a position you pobably already hold. Is it your contention that PR was not a murderer?

Whom did he murder? what evidence is there? Was he convicted? Let me make sure I understand your position SRM. You don't not believe that PR was a murderer. Is that correct?

Yes Peace, The crux of the matter is whether or not the a pre-born baby is a living human being, participating in the plan of salvation. If not, then the woman's plight is or should be a non-issue...

The plan of salvation, in part, entails the union of the spirit with a physical body. Mortal existence is a requisite part of the eternal scheme. The point at which the the spiritual joins the physical is called birth. I just made a post that was directly relevant to the plan of salvation and it has no been moved off the Gospel Discussion Board. Since when is the plan of salvation no longer part of the gospel?

United-States - New study: Intelligence Quotient among Mormons and non-Mormons in Utah This study, conducted by the University of Pennsylvania in conjunction with Utah State University, compares intelligence quotient (IQ) between members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS or Mormons) and non-LDS in Utah. It examines the extent to which righteous living explains variations in intelligence between LDS and non-LDS. Complete IQ table estimates were derived using conventional methods and cross-sectional data for white males and females from 1994-1998. IQ was 110.3 for LDS males, 102.0 for non-LDS males, 114.2 for LDS females, and 104.4 for non-LDS females. A comparison between LDS and non-LDS of the intelligence quotient estimates indicates that although differential tobacco, caffeine and alcohol use explains some of the higher IQ in LDS, it only accounts for about 4.5 IQ points of the 8.3 point difference for males and 4.2 points of the 9.8 point difference for females. Higher life IQ experienced among LDS not explained by tobacco, alcohol and caffeine use may be due to factors associated with religious activity in general, such as better physical health, better social support, and healthier lifestyle behaviors, faith-based conditioning, moral superiority and recognition of eternal truth. Religious activity may also have an independent protective effect against early onset of senility.

Hey now! I said to leave Trident out of this. Come on.Trident - that's just another joke. You have to learn to be less sensitive. Who loves ya baby? We do. That's right, we do.

Hey! Leave Trident out of this.Trident, that's a joke so lighten up. Who loves ya baby? They don't sterilize the maggots. What kind of image did you picture? Boiling the maggots for 15 minutes?soaking them in isopopyl alcohol? burning them with a lit match. They are born (as it were) and raised sterile.

I don't know about that. All I can say is that while I was on my mission, for the most part, I was sexually abstinent.

Cal, What is up with your inablitly to use quote tags correctly? Get with the program for heaven's sake. You're an educator. Lead by example and we'll follow.

Man! Talk about coincidence. Hey the rest of you guys, and I think ya'll know who I am talking about, don't you just hate it when that happens? I know I do.

Thanks SRM but not exactly. Here is the the exact quote: "Joseph Smith . . . could neither write nor dictate a coherent and well worded letter; let alone dictating a book like the book of Mormon. And, though I was an active participant in the scenes that transpired, it is marvelous to me, ‘a marvel and a wonder,’ as much so as to any one else."

Porter,I have to say BULL. When I went through the MTC we got up at, oh say, before the crack of dawn, and worked our tails off until, oh say, the minute we went to sleep. What part of the bar do you think is higher? Do the missionaries of today know the scriptures better, understand the gospel more, enjoy a closer relationship to the spirit? Do they expend more intellectual and spiritual energy? How much more? Seven? I got news for you. I never gave a memorized discussion in my life and I have given thousands. There are people on this board that can put your average missionary to shame in scripture knowledge and they got their base of knowledge on their mission. Don't forget, I know missionaries, I talk to them every week. They come to my house. I see first hand how prepared they are. Generally speaking, there is a dumbing down in the Church today. I assume that carries over to the mission field. It is, perhaps, a natural result of the Church operating on a global front and a need to communicate to the common denominator level of the members. The Brethern of years gone by were intellectual giants. Compare Widstoe or Talmage or Orson Whitney to whoever sets the tone for theological insight today and tell me about the bar being raised. Neil Maxwell is not B.H. Roberts. Know who wrote the Priesthood manual when I was a kid? Nibley. It will be a chilly afternoon in gehenna before that day comes again.

Apparently you are not familiar with the work of Philo Farnsworth or Ira Gershwin.

I think you mean that in your interpretation of what she she says she believes about Mormonism. That's not necessarily the same as Mormonism.

Maybe, maybe not but your having faith that it is so and saying doesn't necessarily make it true.