Snow

And there's another brilliant argument (note: sarcasm alert). Geeze Paharon, whoever you really are, instead of spending money on a computer and internet access, you could have fed a family of 4 in the Sudan for 3 years; instead of buying a leather belt, you could have used twine and spent the difference buying bus fare to spend a runaway back to Iowa...

You gotta love an argument that seeks to demonize the opposition rather than address their point. They are just people who are opposed to changing the legal definition (and granted privileges) but they are "gay hater" and homophobes.

Cal, You're a bright guy - I think we can both agree. Being the bright guy that we both agree that you are, you cause me to wonder... Wassup with some of your rebuttals? Take your points above. Can you not intuit the correct response to either or both? Maybe you already know the answers but hope that I do not and so I will cede the debate to you. Or maybe you are just arguing for argument's sake; that's probably it, your just responding back to get the last word in. Okay. But you should already know how the correct response should go.

I plan to see it with Curvette's husband and then he and I will decide whether or not it is appropriate for her delicate disposition; "my delicate little rose petal," as he is want to call her.

Sunday after next.You have to have a context for these things, some principle that will tie up the loose ends of the lesson into one neat basket. In the last lesson, I have about 4 different thrust that did not seem related and by the end it all rolled into Gratitude As A Principle of Salvation. Now for the the next lesson, I want to shock the Elder's Quorum a bit, make them question their beliefs, throw in a little controversy... that sort of thing.; but, I hope I have learned my lesson and don't toss in the controversy, just for the sake of controversy. I betcha anything that I can turn an exploration of the translation process into a lesson on another Principle of Salvation. Why? Because that's just the kind of creative, out-of-the-box, make-em-think, type of guy I am.

Curvette, The first lesson that was a hit had a lot of information that "guys" like, silver mines, big trucks, things that go boom. The flop was philosophical in nature. So you probably have a point but I was really bothered after the flop lesson. I struggled with it and it all was very forced. I didn't put two and two together until this last Sunday but if was almost if I was in a stupor of thought, struggling against nature to say something (remember the thurst was kind of negative toward the brethren), whereas when I am more positive (orthodox if you will), I am brimming with ideas, a glib orator and force to be reckoned with I tell you thank you very much.

Cal, Two things: 1. Believing in Christ and having the Holy Ghost bless you with a testimony of the BoM are two seperate things. Just believing in Christ does not mean you will believe the BoM. That's non-circular. 2. So you have to believe. That's the nature of faith. I believe, on faith, pending further light. As I wait for further certainity, I accept that the answer to my prayers could be positive or negative.

Ah yes, being of service to other. That's true religion. Now, where did I put my shotgun. I want to go shoot rabbits.

I have been teaching Priesthood regularly. I have an experimental approach. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn’t. The topics come out of the manual but I have yet to use more than a passing reference to the manual. My biggest hit – out of the John Taylor manual – I spent most the hour talking about silver and copper mining, ore dressing, metal refining, you know – man stuff - and then the last 10 minutes making a gospel point – the refiner’s fire. Very successful. Following that I then flopped completely. I don’t recall what lesson it was but I tried to turn it into a study of epistemology, the study of knowledge, and the use of the intellect versus reliance on the faith and the Holy Ghost. I bombed big time. I had that flight thing kick in and I started sweating and was seconds away from bolting out the door. At the time I just chalked it up to lack of preparation (I spent a solid week preparing) and biting off more than I could chew. Yesterday was the fourth Sunday and the topic is already selected – Thankfulness – but you prepare on your own without the manual. Another big hit. I talked about The Martin Handcart Tragedy, pots and pans, the look of the sky and smell of clean ocean brine before an evening storm, repentance, forgiving others, quoted Cicero, the atonement as reconciliation and then somehow, right at the end, tied it all up into a neat and tidy package of Gratitude As A Saving Principle. Big success. It wasn’t till later on in the day that it dawned on me what the deal was. When I was giving the epistemology lesson, even though I was better prepared, I was trying to make a point – basically that questioning Church authority was a positive thing (which I think it is but that’s another story). I closed with a testimony, which was not really a testimony but an expression of uncertainty on authority. By contrast, yesterday my message, while challenging, was positive and uplifting (and orthodox) and I closed with a powerful testimony, or at least as powerful as I had within me at the time. I had only spent a few hours on the lesson on Saturday night, yet I had the material down pat and improvised on the fly. I learned an important lesson I think: Teach with the Spirit grasshopper, not against it.

Haven't we had this circular argument before - with someone anyway. PD is correct, since delivery on the promise is external to the vehicle of the promise, it is not circular. A circular instance would be if we assumed the book is true because it says it is true. However, since it is something outside the book (the Holy Ghost) that says it (presumabley) it is not circular.

Huh,You are such a silly little huggybear. This thread is about Travler's opinion of arguments against the BoM after you lambasting Peace about an unrelated matter dealing with her pissing match with Cal, you accuse me of changing the subject. How on earth does your mind work, Trident? After changing the subject, you hissy-fitterize because the subject is changed. My point is - and this is relevent to your discussion - don't be hypocritical. Don't complain about others who do what you just did. And, when you did it, you were hypocritical in doing so - complaining about not being helpful when the majority of your posts are to degrade and bemoan. That's hypodypocritical. About your laundry Trident: Oh never mind, I can't think of anything remotely clever about laundry right now.

Actually the scholars do agree on a probable reason. After the crusifixions, the nails were removed to be reused - metal was precious. This particular nail must have hit a knot causing it to bend inside the hard olive wood, and thus very difficult to remove. In fact, the cross was cut and a piece of it still attached to the ankle bone was buried with him.There must have been other bones with holes in them from the nails, but no solid trustworthy items/bone have been found.

All I know is that when you start posting Biz, my lumbago acts up. Coincidence? You be the judge.

Uh, yeah Trident-ball-pein hammer-toe guy, The point is that you are at minimum the second most unhelpful and caustic and hurtful guy on this board. Where on earth do you get off complaining that someone else isn't helpful?

Pat Robertson's exact quote: "I think George Bush is going to win in a walk. I'm hearing from the Lord that it's going to be a blowout."

I wouldn't want you to eat your hat but I am pretty certain that the scrolls, for the most part, do not leave Jerusalem. A little checking and I will be sure.Anyway, I went to see the display today. Very Nice and informative. There is a 20 minute tape recorded headphone set up. Lot's of good information. Then I went to a Fireside with Dr. Parry who is on the international team. He is currently assigned to translate the Samuel scrolls. Great Fireside. It is the first of 4 more. If you are in So. Cal, check into them. Drs. Ricks, Reynolds and Peterson, all from BYU are coming up next. Oh, there was something that caught my eye. Reportedly there were 100s or even 1000s of crucifition in Jerusalem, or so the historians, like Josephus who wrote about 50 years after Christ, say. Yet for all the thousands that were reported, there is only one tiny bit of archeological evidence for it. Dr. Parry showed a slide of an ankle bone with a 4 inch iron nail still driven into it. It is the only thing that still exists, archeologicaly, that demonstrates nailing men to the cross.

Oh get off your throne!Even if he was in darkness, what kind of human being sees another in darkness and does nothing to help, as you are doing to everyone who doesn't agree with you? Very very selfish. Trident,You're complaining that someone else is doing nothing to help another who isn't enlightened? That's rich. Whaddaya think. It's rich isn't it?

Actually that one already exists as I recall. The name Lehi was found scrawled on a cave, ancient grafitti really, in Israel around the general time in question.

I have to admit, this line of reasoning escapes me. Can somebody (named Trident) please explain not talking about something indeed proves that you can't?

Hey Cal. Personally I like Peace. But given what you think of Peace's lines of reasoning, what does it say about you that you spend all this time arguing with her?

Who would that be Cal?Are you under the impression that you are making us justify something? Now's who's filled with arrogance and false pride.? You flatter your self. On the other hand - I batter myself. There is nothing I like more than sliding into a nice bathtub filled with a tasty, thick tempura batter. Guess that's the difference between us, yoiu and I.

The same way Snow "proves" you're a fraud--manipulation, repetition, and wishful thinking. Prove is a strong word H, I merely offered consistence evidence to that effect.

I don't know about that Curvette, but I do know this:An ant can lift 50 times his own weight. If a 175 pound man were as strong, he could lift 4 tons - with his teeth. Yeehaw!

Fashionable or not, I think that we can all agree that you are old and getting older by the hour. Whoops, there goes the spyderman suit cutting off my oxygen supply again.

I'm sorry. My new spyderman suit but be cutting off my oxygen supply. Please forgive my cloudburst.