Randy Johnson

Dawn,I am sorry you are not feeling well! Thats a bummer! I want to tell you how much I have enjoyed your friendship over these last 2-3 years! You have made me laugh, scream, wonder in amazement, scratch my bald head and say..."dang it, she's got a great point there".....and every other emotion known to mankind! I think you are a wonderful and articulate woman...of much faith. I do admire you in many, many ways! Just wanted you to know! You let me know when you got yer batteries recharged and we will continue! Take care...and may God bless and keep you! Get feeling better!! your pain in butt friend, randy

Dawn!!What the heck?? Come on girl!! Whoever said we shouldn't honor our parents? The problem is that you infer that he did not simply because he did not investigate the Reorganization! Thats just not right. Sorry! I mean come on....what if the situation were reversed and he had joined a Restoration branch...would you have counseled him to go and investigate the LDS church first, then come back and we'll talk? You know you would not have done that in a bazillion years!! I would still like an answer to my other questions though...if you would. randy

Dawn, See, you saw what you wanted to see in my post! MY point was that as members of the LDS Church we do NOT believe the measure of success is found strictly in numbers nor in bank account statements. You missed the point completely. My point is that "others" point to those two areas and say in effect..."the Church believes it's the true church because they are growing like crazy, because the members strive to pay a full tithe to assist in carrying the work foward, that because the Church has influence in the world it manipulates things to get want it wants...etc. As members we have heard it all...and then some. These are obviously indicators of many things however. As I said, the true measure of success is to be found in the lives of the individual members! Questions that should be asked are...."are members of the LDS church striving to live a Christlike life? Do they strive to serve one another? Do they strive to be obedient and follow the Prophets and Apostles as the Lord has said? The truth is found just the way it was found by that man who was the center of this dicussion. By prayer and fasting! He found it and it was confirmed by the power of the Holy Ghost. Done deal. No need to look further. No need. Once it's found..it's found. Dawn....we have discussed that scripture reference a gazillion times before. I suppose then....since "your house" has been assailed by God's wrath since 1851 and continues to this day...one could paraphrase that scripture as saying " and upon my house shall it begin, and never cease, and from my house nothing will go forth because of contentions, and strifes, and confusion until I come to set the church in order". How long is the RLDS church supposed to suffer this continued wrath....and what has it done as a church to deserve it since day one of the Reorganization? Now...I say that because...and you know this to be true...that is EXACTLY what you and others on other boards have said that is what you believe will need to happen. Ok, Dawn while I am finding my sources to show the Church was or was willing to assist Emma and her family financially and otherwise.... YOU show your evidence that BY was trying to steal her possessions. Please dont show diary entries from 3rd parties about "danites this, or danites that". Show something credible. randy Randy, all I have to do is drag out my "Emma Smith: The Elect Lady", and copy it word for word. In fact, I think I will do just that. And let me ask you what is wrong with "journal entries". Where do you think the truth hides out? Not in some show that BY put on in public, that's for sure. If we have to eliminate journal entries, then, Poof!, all the evidence that Joseph Smith participated in spiritual wivery is gone. Gone. Gone. Gone. You're sure you want to eliminate journal entries? Dawn, Yes, by all means post your excerpts and references for same. thx. I said journal entries about "danites this, and danites that". You seem to hide behind the notion that all bad originated with BY and was carried out by Danites. That seems to be your mindset on these types of issues. But...I would love to see yours. If I can find my "Judge me Dear Reader" by Buddy Youngreen you might be suprised as well. I would enjoy a response to my last post. Also, riddle me this....with respect to the "institutional church" or the "individual branches" within the Restorationist movement...tell me, what are the "fruits" of faithful discipleship? randy

Dawn, On the other board there has been discussion about how the CoC is using Joseph III's "Letter of Instruction" as a guideline to help them choose a successor. You have stated that you feel that the CoC is using the "Letter of Instruction" out of context. The Remnant Church has also used that same "Letter of Instruction" as their guide to "set in order" the Church. If you would, could you show or demonstrate for me how that "Letter of Instruction" is being misused by the CoC and the Remnant Church's? I am curious as well..... randy

Dawn,I have to ask you though, What would be the talk within Restorationist circles "if" there began to be a significant increase in convert baptisms and a significant increase in paying tithing in the Restoration branches? I mean really significant increases...what would ya'all be saying? randy

Dawn,See, you saw what you wanted to see in my post! MY point was that as members of the LDS Church we do NOT believe the measure of success is found strictly in numbers nor in bank account statements. You missed the point completely. My point is that "others" point to those two areas and say in effect..."the Church believes it's the true church because they are growing like crazy, because the members strive to pay a full tithe to assist in carrying the work foward, that because the Church has influence in the world it manipulates things to get want it wants...etc. As members we have heard it all...and then some. These are obviously indicators of many things however. As I said, the true measure of success is to be found in the lives of the individual members! Questions that should be asked are...."are members of the LDS church striving to live a Christlike life? Do they strive to serve one another? Do they strive to be obedient and follow the Prophets and Apostles as the Lord has said? The truth is found just the way it was found by that man who was the center of this dicussion. By prayer and fasting! He found it and it was confirmed by the power of the Holy Ghost. Done deal. No need to look further. No need. Once it's found..it's found. Dawn....we have discussed that scripture reference a gazillion times before. I suppose then....since "your house" has been assailed by God's wrath since 1851 and continues to this day...one could paraphrase that scripture as saying " and upon my house shall it begin, and never cease, and from my house nothing will go forth because of contentions, and strifes, and confusion until I come to set the church in order". How long is the RLDS church supposed to suffer this continued wrath....and what has it done as a church to deserve it since day one of the Reorganization? Now...I say that because...and you know this to be true...that is EXACTLY what you and others on other boards have said that is what you believe will need to happen. Ok, Dawn while I am finding my sources to show the Church was or was willing to assist Emma and her family financially and otherwise.... YOU show your evidence that BY was trying to steal her possessions. Please dont show diary entries from 3rd parties about "danites this, or danites that". Show something credible. randy

Rankled? I don't see it. Saddened, maybe, by their differing paths, but not rankled. Maybe if you went back into church history and read how BY vehemently hated Emma Smith, the Inspired Version of the Bible, etc., you would understand that "rankled" is the correct word. Dawn, Now Sis you know that "both" Emma and BY had a very MUTUAL dislike for each other for various reasons. They were both obviously very strong willed individuals. It is no secret that to say the least there was a personality conflict. But to say BY vehemently hated Emma is going way over the top!! The evidence doesnt not show that all. Actually, from what I have read...he personally saw to it that she was cared for financially for a time, or shall I say...there were continual offers of assistance to her. Whether or not she chose to accept the assistance I do not know. The LDS church....has always maintained a tremendous love , respect and admiration for Emma. She fulfilled her calling to the Prophet. Whatever mistakes she made after the death of the Prophet...I for one am able to forgive and forget. She was and still is....an "Elect Lady". For the record....there are actually several descendants of JS jr in the LDS church. This man we are discussing is not the first and only one. Again though....the issue is whether or not this brother should have investigated the RLDS/CoC/Remnant/Restored LDS etc..etc...etc. Again...I have to say...absolutely NOT! No need whatsoever. He was taught the gospel. He took it to the Lord. The spirit bore witness of the truth. He was baptized. There was no need for him to jump through these other hoops simply because of his family history. We all enter in at the "same" gate. On the Center Place discussion board the talk is...once again, that "we all will just have to hang tight and wait for the Lord to come fix everything" then the Church will move forward united etc. It's as if the members of ALL the other Restoration factions have aquieced the point that there is not a single thing they will be able to do about their current situation until the Lord comes and "sets the church in order". This has been the watch word since the inception of the Reorganization. It just seems to me to be a built in excuse or rationalization for why every other Restoration faction has not prospered. Not one. Now....it could be argued, as in the past....about what constitutes being "prosperous". The LDS church gets knocked because of our exponential growth..yet all the other factions wish they were growing. The LDS church gets knocked because it is financially solvent and then some, we are told that thats all the church cares about is money etc, that the Church is all about big business and not about ministering to the individual....and on and on and on. Nothing could be further from the truth. At least in my experience in the Church. The LDS church is properous in those areas...but, it is prosperous in the most important aspects as well, namely that it's members are growing in faith, in conviction...in service to others. They are giving more of their time and money to further the work of the Lord. In short..the LDS church is prospering because the Lord is blessing his church. The others are not prospering because it was prophesied that they would not. That sounds harsh...but that truly is and has been from day one..the reality of it. IMO. randy

Dawn,Why would that matter when he already had a testimony of the truthfulness of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints? randy

What is her take on the situation? Have you discussed it with her? thats not really an option for me Hello Chicagoguy! To answer your original question...my response would be, yes...you could remain a member of the church...go through the motions etc. In the end your membership and even your Temple marriage will not enable you to enter the Celestial Kingdom with your family. If you feel that JS and the BoM is fraudulent then you should acknowledge those feelings honestly and openly with your wife. If you dont you will end up living a lie and it will eventually destroy you. Better to be honest about it now and take positive steps in whatever direction you and your wife decide. But, as far as the church is concerned....if you truly in your heart of hearts feel this way...in the end, your membership will have availed you nothing. Read Section 76. I want you to know I do offer these thoughts to you with sincere intentions...and with love. I just feel that you wanted to be spoken plainly to. Thats the reality of it. Now....it must be remembered that if you stay a member..and just go through the motions...there is always the possibility that at some point down the line that your testimony will return..that you will be strong in the faith. I dont want you to think that the church gives up on it's members. You know we don't. My only point is that if when you die...you still feel this way...and you were lukewarm and not valiant in the testimony of Christ and his restored gospel...its at that point that I refer you back to the first 3 paragraphs of this post! You have some major league fasting and praying to do my good brother! So get after it!!!! Take care and God bless you in your search for peace! randy

No. Otherwise there would be very few who ever went to the temple. They have people called to be name extractors who work daily extracting thousands of names for temple work. That way, if I want to go to the temple and do some work for the dead, there are names for me to take through, without having to have my own. My parents exhausted our genelogical line, there just isn't anyone else for me to find that there are records for. Plus there are many other family members doing work on that same line. So it is very possible, and more than plausable that when you go to the temple, you are doing a name of someone you aren't directly related to. Is this true? Anyone else? Because I read somewhere that many baptisms that were done were overturned because they found out there was no relationship between the people doing the temple work and the people the temple work was done for. Dawn, Amillia is correct on this one, however there is one exception...and this may be the one you are remembering. Recently there have been some articles written about the LDS church doing Temple work for Jews....in particular Holocaust victims. The LDS church entered into an understanding with the Jewish organization (I cant remember their official name...sorry) that said in effect....Our people will not perform the Temple work for these Jews unless the person performing the work is a direct ancestor and the deceased has been dead "x" number of years, or not a direct descendant but has gotten permission from the surviving spouse if living, or the extended family. In short...with respect to the Jewish people there have been some guidelines set forth. I may be wrong in the particulars...but I believe I got the jist of it correct. randy

I am not sure what you mean when you say morning and afternoon. There is no time restriction, that I am aware of, except that I believe it will be one resurrection. Everyone will come forth at the same time. As far as your #2, no, those who will proceed to Terrestrial glory will have no need for baptism, but that will not be determined till final judgment. If they have resurrected in the resurrection of the just, they all have the potential to go to Celestial Glory because they have learned of Christ and accepted Him in the spiritprison. It is what they do with that knowledge and belief during the millenium (and what happens when Satan is loosed for the short period), that will determine which glory they will receive. They still have the chance to be baptized (which will make them eligible for Celestial glory) during the millenium. I will get to your other question later. I gots places to go, people to see, things to do right now. B) Dawn, Well go have fun then!! Within the resurrection we call the Resurrection of the Just...there are two separate resurrections. 1) Those who shall come forth in the "Morning of the First Resurrection" will be those who are destined to receive a Celestial glory. (See LDS D&C 29:13, 43:18, 76:50-70, 88:97-98) 2) Those who shall come forth in the "Afternoon of the First Resurrection" will be those who are destined to receive a Terrestial glory. (See LDS D&C 88:99) This 2nd resurrection event takes place after the Lord has ushered in the Millennium. So...we just need to remember that when we speak of the Resurrection of the Just...that within it are two resurrection events....and that we do not know how much time, if any, will elapse between them. Based on the scriptures I have read though....those who will come forth with Celestial and Terrestial bodies will NOT be brought forth all at the same time. As I have pointed out, there will be a specific order in which the dead shall be brought forth. The Lord's house is a house of order. Dawn, no....those who come forth in the Resurrection of the Just will be brought forth with either their Celestial bodies or with their Terrestial bodies.....so in that sense, they have already been judged. A person who comes forth in the Resurrection with a Terrestial body in no way could have the potential for Celestial glory. That doesnt make sense. What you say about Satan being able to tempt us after he is loosed is true, but it is only true for those found on the earth at that time. Nowhere have I found that those who have already been resurrected will be subjected to that same temptation thus putting themselves at risk of falling. Are you suggesting that a person who has been resurrected with a Celestial body could be tempted by Satan and thus have that resurrected Celestial body taken away from him/her? No....that is false. Although the scriptures attest that there will be a "Final Judgement" when all of us shall stand before God and give an accounting for our life....we know from the scriptures we have already read that we will already know which Kingdom of Glory we shall inherit by the mere fact of the type of body we would have already been resurrected with. That will tell us where we are headed for. Also, we must remember that though there shall be a formal judgement for all men, yet there is no question, for instance....of the reward of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in that day. Ok....my little fingers are worn down to a nubbin! See ya! randy

Dawn,Forgive me for having to ask this....but, in your last post....are you referring to your membership in the CoC or your affiliation with the Restoration movement? You have a "duel thing" going on and I wanted to be clear on it. randy

Let's look at the set-up of Section 76. I will start at the beginning of the vision, and I will use RLDS scriptures because it is easier for me to find things there. But rest assured, they are the same. First it talks about the sons of Perdition, who they are and how they will go to outer darkness. I won't post all those scriptures, I think we agree on that point. I will point out one scripture, though. I will highlight an important phrase within that scripture. 76:4e these are they who shall go away into the lake of fire and brimstone, with the Devil and his angels, and the only ones on whom the second death shall have any power; yea, verily, the only ones who shall not be redeemed in the due time of the Lord, after the sufferings of his wrath; 76:4f for all the rest shall be brought forth by the resurrection of the dead, through the triumph and the glory of the Lamb, who was slain, who was in the bosom of the Father before the worlds were made. Then we move on to this scripture. 76:5a And again, we bear record for we saw and heard, and this is the testimony of the gospel of Christ, concerning them who come forth in the resurrection of the just: And there are a bunch of scriptural requirements that are listed in verses 5b through 6h. And then we get to this scripture. 76:7a And again, we saw the glory of the telestial, which glory is that of the lesser, even as the glory of the stars differs from that of the glory of the moon in the firmament; 7b these are they who received not the gospel of Christ, neither the testimony of Jesus; 7c these are they who deny not the Holy Spirit; 7d these are they who are thrust down to hell; 7e these are they who shall not be redeemed from the Devil, until the last resurrection, until the Lord, even Christ the Lamb, shall have finished his work; This last scripture I quoted shows beyond a shadow of a doubt that only those who are to receive the Telestial Glory will not be resurrected in the Resurrection of the Just. Which means that those who are eligible for Terrestrial Glory will be resurrected in that resurrection. You can look it up in your own D&C. It is all there. Dawn, Maybe you missed one of my posts. I agree with this last post of yours. I have already explained about who will come forth in the Resurrection of the Just. Those who will inherit a Celestial glory will come forth in the "Morning" of the First Resurrection or Resurrection of the Just......then ...those who will inherit the Terrestial Glory will come forth in the "afternoon" of the First Resurrection or Resurrection of the Just. I have not said otherwise. The two points I want to make...again, is that 1) those who shall come forth in the Morning of the First Resurrection will already have been baptized as stated in the Section. They will not be baptized "after" they are resurrected. 2) Those who shall come forth with Terrestial bodies will not have needed to be baptized. You will notice when the section talks of the requirement for entrance into that Glory....there is no mention of the necessity of baptism, that necessity is only found for entrance to the Celestial kingdom. I do want to make the point that the majority of Restorationists that I have spoken with do not believe that "any" baptisms will take place after a person has died. To them....any baptism after this life is akin to Baptism for the Dead...which position I agree with. Dawn...answer me this...then we can agree to disagree....what is your position as to the veracity of the Sections that were put in the Appendix and subsequently removed altogether that spoke clearly on this subject? randy

Dawn, See, this is what I find hard to understand. You state that there is an Apostle whom you felt would have "done the right thing" for the church. This Apostle has supported and sustained all this doctrinal change which you so vehemently oppose. I know this sound harsh, but how can you say he would do the right thing for the Church when he has supported all that has caused the CoC to go down this road to apostacy and evidently...will continue to? I dont get it. You seem to think that everyone has to believe the same exact things in order to be in leadership positions. I happen to know that some of the apostles are very liberal, in all ways. Some are conservative Christians, but liberal regarding the restoration, some are traditional in all ways. Some have testified that things that they did not believe to be true were ramrodded through by the liberals above them (the 1st presidency) and they did not support those changes. I do not believe that the church would go in a direction that the upper leadership does not endorse. And if a conservative (in all respects) gets into the top leadership position, I believe the eventual outcome would be entirely different. If the person I mentioned was put into the top leadership position, the church would turn around it's belief about the Book of Mormon, and in many other "traditional restoration" beliefs, and become, once again, a restoration church. Can they do anything about things like women in the priesthood, I seriously doubt it, but that is not what makes it or breaks it to me. This is all I have to say about that. http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/g/m/gmovesmw.htm Let me add that what you have said about the position of the restoration branches. That is true. But it would become true for every branch in the church if it goes into apostasy. But efforts are underway to try to gain control of the situation by a group of restorationists for the eventuality that is approaching. Dawn, It would not be true for every branch in the Church because not every branch would believe that the church is in apostacy. Actually...for those members of the CoC who feel that the church is finally in complete apostacy...all they would simply have to do is affiliate with a restoration branch. I dont see a major rift occuring because of this selection. I believe the CoC will simply keep going down the path it has chosen to be on and will continue to pursue all it's various agenda's. But, I suspect there will not be much of a departure of the members because many will feel the same as you...in that they will keep hoping against hope that something, sometime....somewhere....somehow will take place to bring the institutional church back into line. It is never going to happen. IMO. Yes..I have heard about the group of people who are endeavouring to "gather the flock" against what is around the corner. What is around the corner is the extreme impatientence now on the part of the Restorationists. They want structure. They want unity. They want to organize the upper quorums. They want to feel energized like the members of the Remnant Church do. They do not want to continue to feel like the world is passing them by while they twiddle their thumbs complaining of all the same old stuff, and at the same time resisting the idea of coming together and organizing because they have no leader. They cant have because the Lord has not called one. Even "if" the Lord called one, ie; Pres. Larsen of the Remnant Church, that person would probably not be sustained by the majority because...well, there is simply no unity of thought or agreement on how this situation is going to be resolved except uttering the ever popular "the Lord will set his church in order in his own due time". The Remnant Church's message to the CoC and the Restorationists is that it has already been accomplished. That Church was organized by a group of men as conservative and knowledgeable of RLDS history etc as anyone, yet many do not follow them. Why? For the same reasons that will be given for not following the next group who attempts the same thing. Its just a cycle that keeps repeating...and repeating...and repeating.... randy

Dawn,See, this is what I find hard to understand. You state that there is an Apostle whom you felt would have "done the right thing" for the church. This Apostle has supported and sustained all this doctrinal change which you so vehemently oppose. I know this sound harsh, but how can you say he would do the right thing for the Church when he has supported all that has caused the CoC to go down this road to apostacy and evidently...will continue to? I dont get it. Dawn, you say the church "has the potential" to go into complete apostacy at that time, then you list all these scenario's that would have to fall into place to make it happen. Looks like to me you have already rationalized that whatever takes place...you have an "out" that will allow you to continue the path you are on. You are treading water...thats it. You are not moving forward. This same mindset probably will be manifest in the Restorationists as a whole. Why? Because they know that their hope lies in the repentance and restitution of the Institutional Church. You say the "governance" of the Church then would fall to local leadership, and each branch would be "responsible" for itself". I thought that is what the "Restorationist" movement was all about in the first place! I thought that since 1984 this has been the position of the "Restorationists". Now you are telling me that that's not true? Thats not what happened in 1984, but could be true in 2005? Do you see all the confusion that is inherit in all of this? Can you not see that this will never change? randy

Dawn, Then are you saying that those in the spirit world will have had to already accepted the gospel and been baptized before the Resurrection of the Just? I thought you were putting forth the idea that a spirit could be resurrected THEN be baptized. Did I miss understand you? Also....I didnt know if you noticed my other question about males needing to have been ordained to the MP in order to enter the Celestial Kingdom....do you believe that as well? randy I thought I made it clear that I believe that they will have the opportunity during the Zionic reign to be baptized. I do not believe it is a requirement to be baptized to be resurrected in the Resurrection of the Just. I do not read that it is a requirement for one to be a MP member to enter Celestial Glory, no. Dawn, We both agree that people on both sides of the veil during the millennium will have the opportunity to accept the gospel and be baptized. You seem to be reversing your course. On the other board you specifically stated that it was your belief that Baptism was necessary to enter the Celestial Kingdom. Period. In order for a person to inherit a Celestial glory, he must come forth in the morning of the First Resurrection, or Resurrection of the Just. So, it stands to reason.....Baptism is necessary. You say baptism is NOT a requirement to come forth in the Resurrection of the Just..yet how do you explain D&C 76:51 where it spells it out plainly? Explain to me what you believe it is saying. Explain what D&C 76:57 means when it says speaking of those males who shall come forth in the resurrection of the Just: "And are priests of the Most High, after the order of Melchizedek, which was after the order of Enoch, which was after the order of the Only Begotten Son." Is this not the MP that is being referenced? randy Randy, you cannot look at an isolated scripture in that section because the eligibility goes on for several verses. It states that those eligible for both Celestial Glory and Terrestrial Glory are to arise in the Resurrection of the Just. That one verse is only the requirement for Celestial Glory. You have to go down further to see the requirements for Terrestrial Glory. So, are you implying that only MP members will be in Celestial Glory? Dawn, Just as a clarification....and I know you know this....but baptism is NOT a requirement to be resurrected. Baptism is only required of those who accept the restored gospel and desire to inherit a Celestial glory. As I showed earlier....there is a specific order in which the dead will be raised. In the Resurrection of the Just...there are two resurrection events....the first is the "Morning of the First Resurrection" these are they who shall inherit the Celestial Kingdom, and the second is the "afternoon of the First Resurrection"...these are they who shall inherit a terrestial glory. We do not know how long a period of time it will be between those two events. Again...as long we know that those who desire to be resurrected to a Celestial Glory will need to have been baptized prior to the "morning of the First Resurrection" that is enough to know. IMO. So....since you agree that those who inherit a Celestial glory will have already been baptized, as taught in that verse in Section 76...how would those baptisms been performed? randy

Dawn, Then are you saying that those in the spirit world will have had to already accepted the gospel and been baptized before the Resurrection of the Just? I thought you were putting forth the idea that a spirit could be resurrected THEN be baptized. Did I miss understand you? Also....I didnt know if you noticed my other question about males needing to have been ordained to the MP in order to enter the Celestial Kingdom....do you believe that as well? randy I thought I made it clear that I believe that they will have the opportunity during the Zionic reign to be baptized. I do not believe it is a requirement to be baptized to be resurrected in the Resurrection of the Just. I do not read that it is a requirement for one to be a MP member to enter Celestial Glory, no. Dawn, We both agree that people on both sides of the veil during the millennium will have the opportunity to accept the gospel and be baptized. You seem to be reversing your course. On the other board you specifically stated that it was your belief that Baptism was necessary to enter the Celestial Kingdom. Period. In order for a person to inherit a Celestial glory, he must come forth in the morning of the First Resurrection, or Resurrection of the Just. So, it stands to reason.....Baptism is necessary. You say baptism is NOT a requirement to come forth in the Resurrection of the Just..yet how do you explain D&C 76:51 where it spells it out plainly? Explain to me what you believe it is saying. Explain what D&C 76:57 means when it says speaking of those males who shall come forth in the resurrection of the Just: "And are priests of the Most High, after the order of Melchizedek, which was after the order of Enoch, which was after the order of the Only Begotten Son." Is this not the MP that is being referenced? randy Randy, you cannot look at an isolated scripture in that section because the eligibility goes on for several verses. It states that those eligible for both Celestial Glory and Terrestrial Glory are to arise in the Resurrection of the Just. That one verse is only the requirement for Celestial Glory. You have to go down further to see the requirements for Terrestrial Glory. So, are you implying that only MP members will be in Celestial Glory? Dawn, I read and re-read the entire section. Lets take this a step at a time. First of all, for the sake of this discussion....lets only talk about what is required for Celestial Glory. Truthfully...I dont dwell on anything else. I want first string varsity, not water boy! The verse I quoted you is supported by the other scriptures, but most importantly by the inspired guidance and counsel the Prophet voluminously gave to the Saints. His instructions alone clarify perfectly all these points. The verse I gave specifically and clearly states that baptism is necessary before the Resurrection of the Just. If you read it differently....please, explain it to me. I really am sincere when I ask that. You state that "that requirement is only for Celestial glory"....so what is that telling you Dawn???? It's right there in front of you! Regarding the verse about the need for the MP....you tell me what it is saying.....I want to know what you believe it means. randy

OK, one more time, for the record.................. The people in the spiritprison are being taught about Christ now. They have the chance to accept or deny Christ. The Resurrection of the Just will occur during Zion, which is the Millenium. Those who are eligible for both Celestial glory and Terrestrial glory will arise in the Resurrection of the Just. They will live here on earth for 1000 years with Christ. Those who are not eligible for the Resurrection of the Just will not arise until the Resurrection of the Unjust (final judgment.) Those who accepted Christ in the spiritprison will have the opportunity during Zion to be baptized. At the end of the Millenium Satan is loosed for a short period. Then comes the final resurrection and final judgment, and everyone will pass to the glories they have inherited. Those who will inherit Celestial glory will have already been baptized either when they were alive (prior to death), having not rejected the gospel, or they will have been baptized during Zion after having heard about Christ and accepted Him in the spiritprison. There is no requirement to be baptized to be resurrected in the Resurrection of the Just since those who are eligible for the Terrestrial glory are eligible to arise in the Resurrection of the Just. There is a requirement to be baptized to enter Celestial Glory. Those who have resurrected in the Resurrection of the Just who have not been baptized will have the opportunity to be baptized during the millenium (Zion). Is it still not clear what I believe? Dawn, Whew! It took you awhile..but you finally put it out on the table. Now I have something concrete to go on. In the future you could save us some time and spell stuff out the first time. Its like pulling teeth to get you to spill the beans! I dont have time to respond right now...but I have much to respond to. Oh...and that was a pretty tacky remark you made on the other board about the CoC being just like the LDS...regarding their nomination of Pres. Veazy to be their new President. That was a cheap shot..and very much beneath you! You know better than that. Truth is....there isn't anyone they could have selected other than Wallace B. Smith that would have satisfied you or the Restorationists. So...with this selection...do you feel the CoC is now in complete apostacy? You have made the comment before that you felt the CoC was, for lack of a better phrase...in "partial apostacy". Does this seal the deal for you? Are you going to continue to attend the CoC church or are you going to take a stand and leave and come to Independence? randy

Dawn, Then are you saying that those in the spirit world will have had to already accepted the gospel and been baptized before the Resurrection of the Just? I thought you were putting forth the idea that a spirit could be resurrected THEN be baptized. Did I miss understand you? Also....I didnt know if you noticed my other question about males needing to have been ordained to the MP in order to enter the Celestial Kingdom....do you believe that as well? randy I thought I made it clear that I believe that they will have the opportunity during the Zionic reign to be baptized. I do not believe it is a requirement to be baptized to be resurrected in the Resurrection of the Just. I do not read that it is a requirement for one to be a MP member to enter Celestial Glory, no. Dawn, We both agree that people on both sides of the veil during the millennium will have the opportunity to accept the gospel and be baptized. You seem to be reversing your course. On the other board you specifically stated that it was your belief that Baptism was necessary to enter the Celestial Kingdom. Period. In order for a person to inherit a Celestial glory, he must come forth in the morning of the First Resurrection, or Resurrection of the Just. So, it stands to reason.....Baptism is necessary. You say baptism is NOT a requirement to come forth in the Resurrection of the Just..yet how do you explain D&C 76:51 where it spells it out plainly? Explain to me what you believe it is saying. Explain what D&C 76:57 means when it says speaking of those males who shall come forth in the resurrection of the Just: "And are priests of the Most High, after the order of Melchizedek, which was after the order of Enoch, which was after the order of the Only Begotten Son." Is this not the MP that is being referenced? randy

Dawn,Then are you saying that those in the spirit world will have had to already accepted the gospel and been baptized before the Resurrection of the Just? I thought you were putting forth the idea that a spirit could be resurrected THEN be baptized. Did I miss understand you? Also....I didnt know if you noticed my other question about males needing to have been ordained to the MP in order to enter the Celestial Kingdom....do you believe that as well? randy

Hi Tamara,Yes...I understand the CoC do not believe in the practice of Baptism for the Dead as it is practiced in the LDS church, however do you believe Baptism is necessary for ALL who desire to enter the Celestial Kingdom? randy

Dawn,During the millennium we will be blessed by the ministry of resurrected beings. These are they who are spoken of in D&C 76 as coming forth in the morning of the First Resurrection. Those on earth who are righteous ie; living at least a terrestial law will be able to endure the Second Coming of the Lord. They will live to be the "age of a tree" and they shall be changed from mortality to immortality in a "twinkling of an eye". Their bodies will not "lie in the ground". Those who are able to endure the Second Coming...both members and non-members will still eat, drink, work, play, go to church, believe in their own God etc. However, during the millennium the Lord shall use the forces of nature to help in turning people's hearts toward the truth. Not all people who have died will be resurrected at the Lord's Second Coming. This is where I think you get confused. Although during the Millennium...missionary work..both on this side of the veil, as well as in the spirit world....shall be the great work of those 1000yrs. Those who are resurrected will have already accepted the gospel and would have been baptized..either in life on their own behalf, or after death...performed by proxy in the Temple. It will be during this time that those who are living on earth shall be assisted in a most miraclous way from Resurrected beings with respect to "connecting all the links of the chains" when it comes to gaining the information needed in performing all the Temple work necessary. Temple work will be THE most important work that will be performed during the Millennium. IMO. So....those who are resurrected at the ushering in of the Millinnium, will be those who have already accepted the gospel and who have already been baptized. Those other spirits who are still in the spirit world...will yet be ministered to and taught the restored gospel...and will need to have their baptisms performed by proxy in the Temple of the Lord....so they can be judged "according to men in the flesh". So..this missionary work will be a two pronged effort...those still living on earth at the time of the Lord's return, and those in the spirit world who did not come forth in the "morning of the first resurrection". Those resurrected beings who did come forth at the time of the Second Coming will be assisting us here on earth in a variety of ways!! During the Millennium...missionary work on both sides of the veil will be pretty much seamless and very much accelerated because of the help received from those on the other side. randy

Section 76 states that the resurrection of the just includes those eligible for Celestial glory as well as those eligible for Terrestrial glory. Those eligible for Terrestrial glory will, for the most part, not have received of the restored truth but were good people on earth who had been misled. It also states that the resurrection of the just will occur during the Zionic reign, which will indeed be before final judgment. My timeline is not screwy. I think you need to re-read that section and pray to better understand it and not be brainwashed by the traditions of your church. Perhaps you can explain your own belief in a way that doesn't tell other people they are wrong. You have said absolutely nothing about your belief and have just slammed mine. Dawn, I just read and re-read LDS D&C 76 and for the life of me I cannot see where you are getting that baptisms could be performed after the resurrection of the Just. LDS D&C 76:50-52 states: "And again we bear record---for we saw and heard, and this is the testimony of the gospel of Christ concerning them who shall come forth in the resurrection of the just----- They are they who have "received" (note past tense) the testimony of Jesus, and "believed" (past tense) on his name and were "baptized" (past tense) after the manner of his burial, being buried in the water in his name, and this according to the commandment which he has given---- That by keeping the commandments they might be washed and cleansed from all their sins, and receive the Holy Spirit by the laying on of hands of him who is ordained and sealed unto this power......" So, it seems to me to be perfectly clear just from this passage alone that those who choose to accept the gospel in the spirit world, and having been baptized by proxy.... will have done so "prior to" the resurrection of the Just. It only makes sense. The Prophet Joseph went to extraordinary lengthes to teach and expound on this doctrine to the saints while he was alive. He made it clear on where, how, when and why we practice this doctrine. I am hopeful when I see others of the RLDS/Restorationists.... when they speak of this doctrine....even though there is much confusion concerning it...that they are beginning to see the necessity of Baptism, whether in this life or in the spirit world...where they will be taught the gospel..if they did not have that opportunity in this life. That is good to see. The thought also occurs to me....Dawn...do you believe that all males who enter the Celestial Kingdom...in addition to baptism....must also have been ordained to the MP as clearly set forth in D&C 76:57 (LDS)? Dawn, their are two resurrections which await us here on earth. 1) The First Resurrection, or the Resurrection of the Just 2) The Second Resurrection, or the Resurrection of Damnation or Resurrection of the Unjust. I submit to you..that even within these two separate resurrections, there is an order in which the dead will come forth. Those coming forth in the "morning" of the First Resurrection will be those who shall receive a Celestial glory. (D&C 29:13 43:18 76:50-70 88:97-98) Then "And after this another angel shall sound, which is the second trump; and then cometh the redemption of those who are Christ's at his coming; who have received their part in that prison which is prepared for them, that they might receive the gospel, and be judged according to men in the flesh". (D&C 88:99) This is the "afternoon" of the First Resurrection or Resurrection of the Just. This takes place after the Lord has ushered in the Millennium. Those coming forth at that time...come forth with Terrestial bodies...and are destined to inherit a Terrestial Kingdom. (LDS D&C 76:71-80) So...it is clear that at the time of the First Resurrection or Resurrection of the Just, a partial judgement will have already been made....how else could they receive either their Celestial or Terrestial bodies? This "partial judgement" if you will, will be based upon their acceptance or lack thereof, of the Restored Gospel and their having received and accepted the baptism performed on their behalf. Then at the appointed hour...the Final Judgement will be made...and those who have already been resurrected will enter the Kingdom of Glory which their bodies can endure. randy

Section 76 states that the resurrection of the just includes those eligible for Celestial glory as well as those eligible for Terrestrial glory. Those eligible for Terrestrial glory will, for the most part, not have received of the restored truth but were good people on earth who had been misled. It also states that the resurrection of the just will occur during the Zionic reign, which will indeed be before final judgment. My timeline is not screwy. I think you need to re-read that section and pray to better understand it and not be brainwashed by the traditions of your church. Perhaps you can explain your own belief in a way that doesn't tell other people they are wrong. You have said absolutely nothing about your belief and have just slammed mine. Dawn, I wasnt slamming your belief. I simply would like, as I have asked...for you to lay the scriptural foundation for your belief. Thats all. I could explain to you in detail about what we believe concerning it...but, you already are well versed in it. I am interested in what you believe and the restorationists as a whole. I know that this belief of yours is your own opinion...not shared by many others of the Restorationist camp. Share with us if you will, the verse that teaches you that there will be baptisms of resurrected beings during the 1000 yrs. If you have a scriptural basis for what you believe then we can continue. I understand when you say you cant believe in Baptism for the Dead because that would be somewhat akin to admitting that the RLDS church has been wrong all this time...and you put yourself in a position of bowing to "big brother" ie; the LDS church...which I know you would rather have hot pokers ran through your eyes before you admit such a thing. The truth of the matter is...regardless of what you label it...is that Baptism for the Dead, whether it is done by proxy before the resurrection or as resurrected beings after the resurrection....is necessary. Although we do not believe baptism's will be performed by resurrected beings, your personal belief on this subject betrays your time honored RLDS belief that Baptism for the Dead is not necessary, or that it has never been part of the gospel plan. randy ....just as a note, I read on BYU newsnet that Pres. Larsen of the Remnant Church spoke to some BYU faculty about various things. In his remarks he made the following comments: 1) The Remnant church believes in the "principle of Baptism for the Dead, but not the practice". 2) The Remnant Church believes that Joseph Smith Jr was "not" a fallen prophet, but was a prophet who made some "errors" such as the doctrine of Plural Marriage. I find these two comments fascinating because coming from the President of the Remnant church, which is even more conservative RLDS than the Restorationists....these comments are a major departure from the past. As you know, in the past... the position of the RLDS/Restorationists has always been that Joseph had nothing to do with doctrine of Plural Marriage and that Baptism for the Dead was a spurrious doctrine. These comments affirm that at least as far as the Remnant Church is concerned....Baptism for the Dead is scriptural and that Joseph did bring forth the doctrine of Plural Marriage and that it did not come from Brigham Young. BY just affirmed what Joseph taught. I just thought that was very interesting.

Hi Dawn,You bet you guys were discussing Baptism for the Dead, just with a unique twist to it. You were discussing people who had already died, and at the same time acknowledging the need for Baptism "if" they accepted the Restored gospel in the spirit world, so we are not very far apart on this. It's simply the timing of when the ordinance takes place. You already know the LDS position and where we derive our very specific instructions on how to practice that ordinance and why it is such a vital doctrine in our theology. We simply believe that sometime after birth into this life and BEFORE the resurrection and judgement, every living soul will hear the gospel message and be judged by his reaction thereto. If I understand your position correctly...you believe that those who have died without having an opportunity to accept the gospel in this life....will at some point hereafter, if they accept the gospel....will be able to be baptized as resurrected beings by one holding the proper PH authority. Do I understand you correctly? I just think you have your timeline a little skewed. Our standing with respect to our accepting the gospel must have needs be been resolved PRIOR to our resurrection and judgement....how else could we be judged and be resurrected to the glory which we have earned according to "our works in the flesh"? You state that those who would thus be candidates for baptism would have as Resurrected beings....a 1000 yrs to take care of their baptism. That would be false, although I do believe you did mention that that scenario is your own personal opinion and is not taught nor has it been taught in the RLDS/Restorationist camps. Simply put...by the time the resurrection and judgement take place it will have been to late for baptism. The time for all of the gospel ordinances to be performed is BEFORE resurrection and judgement. Refresh my memory though Dawn....I take it you believe JSjr had it all wrong in the early church and the very specific instructions he gave to the saints regarding it's practice? randy