gfchase

Great question! I think it depends on where you are at in your progression. Eve in tasting the forbidden fruit saw that it was desirable to the taste. Why? At that point it needed to be sweet. They were about to become mortal and bring to pass the will of the Father. The result of that partaking was also bitter because it brought to pass pain, sorrow and a separation from Father, so it became both sweet and bitter. Jerry

Perhaps I should clarify a bit. a couple posts back I said that I had been tested but that we still pay a full tithe and that is true. What I did not say was how severe that test was, but tithing like any other test in life is about our willingness to bend our will to that of our Father in Heaven. Think of the sacrifice of the early saints who were full tithe payers, think of the sacrifices of the Prophet Joseph. It was not uncommon to lose everything they had and that multiple times as they were driven from place to place. The blessings are NOT always financial and certainly the blessings that I have received the last few hears have been of maintenance and at other times they could have only been spiritual, for we once many years ago actually lost our home and remember thinking at the time, how could this happen for we are full tithe payers and it was not because we were not making the payments, but we then began to understand that the Lord was proving us. Would we hold to the truth regardless of the trials we faced. We are taught that we may be called upon to sacrifice all that we have and that, even if we are full tithe payers. The point is will we be obedient. Think of the trials of Job who lost everything but was then rewarded with more and so it is with us. Often the blessings may be spiritual rather than monetary. Jerry

Not at all. During the early days of the church after the restoration, most members were farmers and as such often paid in kind. As an example, if they grew a thousand bushels of wheat and had a new calf born, they would pay tithe of 100 bushels plus whatever 10 % of the calf was in an added amount of wheat, so if the value of the calf was worth 10 bushels of wheat an additional 1 bushel of wheat was given for a total of 101 bushels. However your income is derived, simply keep track and pay as honestly as you can 10% of that amount and if you are in doubt give a little extra, the Lord will only bless you more. Jerry

I find it interesting that when anyone is asked what is your income, invariably the answer that is given is the gross income. No one stops to think well is that before or after taxes or is it what I have left after I have paid all my bills. It is always the gross income that is given. However when it comes to tithe, so many will seek to justify giving as little to the Lord as possible. Faith precedes the miracle. When you are honest with the Lord by paying a FULL tithe of 1/10th of your GROSS income and do it willingly, miracles do happen in our lives. The Lord will test us first. Just remember that everything we have is his and He only asks that we have the faith to give back to him 1 dollar for every 10 he has given us without trying to justify how much that should be. I am a poor man who lives on less than what my actual needs are, yet every month the Lord blesses me that I somehow have extra. When I say poor, my gross income is barely over $1000 per month. My monthly bills amount to more than that, but every month miracles happen that somehow there appears more than we need. I could not tell you the number of times I have opened my wallet and found an extra hundred dollars that was not there previously, or it may come in some other way, but it always comes and has for several years. This is not to say that I have not been tested in paying tithe, I have, but the Lord knows that it is the first thing that is paid every month. I cannot afford to NOT pay a full tithe on every dime I receive, but you decide for yourselves, you have your agency. Jerry

Let me start by quoting from the Book of Mormon and then add some Biblical verses. 2 Nephi 25:23 For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do. Matthew 5: 16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. James 2:14-20 14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? 17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. 18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? So you see we also believe that it is by grace that we are saved, BUT, we also understand that works are essential for we cannot be saved without them. There are actually numerous Biblical references as well as those from the Book of Mormon that teach the necessity of works but also teach grace. Again ..."it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do." Jerry

Sorry, I totally misunderstood your post. I have dealt with many of those myself. Jerry

I am not sure what you mean by "pretend to be LDS". We are not all in the same place in living our religion. We learn line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little as we strive to live and keep the principles of the gospel. We all sin and come short of the glory of God. As for changing your mind, only you can do that. I have found that when a persons mind is made up, it does little good to confuse them with facts. Jerry

I find it extremely difficult to believe that elder Oaks would not know the answer to the OP. It is very clearly taught in Gospel Essentials class which is the most basic adult class in the church that all children under the age of 8 are inheritors of the Celestial Kingdom and no baptism is needed for them, but all over the age of 8 MUST be baptized to enter Paradise. Spirit Prison is a waiting place for both the good and honorable of the earth as well as the evil. Here they are all taught the saving ordinances of the gospel and have their agency to accept or reject it. They must wait for that baptism to be performed by proxy and if they accept that baptism they then go to paradise. As to the thief on the cross and whether Christ went to spirit prison: Christ did not actually go to prison but to Paradise where he called forth his servants the prophets and commissioned them to teach those in prison. The thief not having received the gospel previously went to prison to await being taught and proxy Baptism. Jerry

Justinc - Remember that we all progress line upon line and precept upon precept. You have left the church for whatever your reasons are and it appears that your friends husband is in the same process. The basic principles of the gospel are simple enough for a child to understand, but as we progress we may lose sight of those simple principles that we once knew were true. Sometimes people are influenced by friends or family that the church simply can't be true, while sometimes we feel guilty about the sins we are committing and are not comfortable in church, while others may have myriad reasons. I myself once had a long period in my life when I knew that the church was true but was more interested in continuing with the sins that were apparently more important to me than repentance. Whether you or your friends husband ever come back into the church is between you and the Lord and your friend the same. I would suggest that your friend go to the Lord in sincere prayer for as long as it takes for her to come to an understanding of what the Lord wants for her in her particular situation. If she will go to the Temple often because the veil is thinner there and pour her heart out to Father, she will not fail in understanding what HE wants for her. It may be that she needs to repent and ask her husbands forgiveness for her attitude and set the example for him in his process. In the end it is between them individually and the Lord and perhaps their Bishop, but one of the questions I am sure the Bishop will ask is are they praying together daily as a couple and studying the Book of Mormon daily as well. If they truly want to repair their marriage it will not be possible unless and until they both will do those things. Jerry

Thank you for your welcome. Jerry

I have been participating in online religion forums for about 5 years, ever since an article appeared in the Ensign magazine asking members to do so. For the past year I have been looking for a forum that was geared to honest discussion of "Mormon" beliefs. From the little I read so far, it appears that I may have found one. Jerry