[Bishops Daughter Dating Before 16]

I wouldnt. So what if shes kissing a boy?? Its not the crime of the century, and not all 14 year olds are sex crazed maniacs that parents/leaders seem to think they are. The girl will hate you for telling on her, then hate her father for probably forbidding her to see the boy, making her teen angst greater and her life harder than it already is at 14. My parents were forever hauling my sister up over things that just made her rebel even more. Id leave it.

[My Problem With Church Leadership]

The problem arises when people aren't prepared to make covenants, but then go through with it for whatever reason (and honestly, who's going to walk out of the endowment room at the beginning when asked if anyone wants to, especially when its your first time and all your family/friends came to be there with you and you don't know what's up ahead--good or bad?)

exactly-thats where i feel a bit cheated and deceived-Lull you in by telling you its good your whole life so that when you're there it is impossible to do anything but agree. The whole temple culture of going woth your family to have this alledgedly amazing experience..I wanted to say NO, NO, NO! To all of it but how could I? I was too scared too. No one said to me, its ok to do that, you are free agent. Everyone just said, you will go, you will enjoy it. Did go, did not enjoy it.

He said that there are members of the church who every day have to decide if they want to be members, every day.

Well thats me. I dont see why thats bad. Surely its better to stay and be unsure than leave. That quote sounds like its saying, if you're not sure, make up your mind or get out. Thats christian love for you. So much for the church being a hospital! Its obvious they only want a certain calibre of people.

So, in order to be interested in doctrine enough to learn it, I come on the internet and pick fights - I like the competion. It must annoy others a great deal...

And you said I was immature!!!

[My Problem With Church Leadership]

Im sorry you had a heart attack Yediyd. But I dont think its fair of you to slam the way I feel about wearing garments. I was wearing them when I had my wedding dress fittings and I had to stand there in front of the shop girl wearing them while she helped me into my dress. I felt so uncomfortable and stupid. I really didnt care what she thought-I felt stupid. I would have felt the same at the hospital, so I thanked my stars I didnt have them on. I felt 'normal'. I felt ME. I cant help hating them. Even if I had no issues with the church or temple Id still hate them. My step Mother hates them but she still wears them. The stake Presidents wife hates them. I think most women probably do, or at least have issue with them. Even if they are 'right' they're still awful horrible unconfortable impractical things. I dont think its unrealistic of me to feel uncomfortable in front of strangers in underwear circa 1850.

If you dont Yedi, fine, but I do. We're all different.

[I'm 250 Lbs. And I'm Beautiful!]

<div class='quotemain'>

So if your spouse became overweight for whatever reason you would no longer find her attractive or beautiful? What about if their hair grows grey? Maybe a wrinkle?

Yes, I am as shallow as a puddle and would divorce them the instant they ceased to look the exact way they did when I married them. Then again, I was talking about being attracted to big bodies to begin with, which is far different from marrying someone I'm attracted to and then adjusting to each other's changing bodies. But feel free to take a cheap shot and misconstrue my words. I don't mind. B)

I've NEVER heard him say disparaging remarks about overweight people...NEVER.

Good for him. Personally, I'm not attracted to big. Does that mean nobody likes big women? Nope. Just not me, and I wouldn't dream of telling anyone else they have to be attracted to what I find physically beautiful.

Oh yeah, another point...suppose a new overweight member of the church or an investigator stumbles upon this thread??? They may be less likely to join the church considering the prejudice many of you have shown.

Perhaps, but then again perhaps the knowledge that God has living prophets and apostles on the earth, and so on, might be more important to them than a few peoples' interpretation of the Word of Wisdom. To me, it would be. But that's just me.

LOL CK.

I'd like to mention something here-I know this thread is about being overweight. However, has anyone considered what being underweight is like? When I started secondary school I was a scrawny little runt, about 7 stone, stick thin legs, my uniform hung off me. I struggled to make friends as I was introverted and shy (hahaha). I eventually got an invite to a party a few weeks into the term, and stayed friends with that girl throughout school. Later on, I was told she initially only invited me as she felt sorry for me and there were all these rumours going around that I was anorexic and on drugs. when I was about 14/15, some girls (I went to an all girls school-girls can be mean) in my form starting picking on me, shouting 'druggy' at me and 'you think you're better than us because you want to be a model so you're not eating'. Utter clap-trap, Id never said anything like that, I wanted to be an archaeologist at this point-the most unglamorous job there is!! I mostly kept to myself and got on with my work. They threw stuff at me and said stuff like, 'you've got no meat on you atall'. I was persecuted for being thin, yet I actually couldnt do anything about it, its just the way I was. I was definitely an ugly duckling at school and it took me a long time to feel comfortable with my body and my looks.

When I went to uni, Me and my tall blonde friend were approached by a photograper who said he was looking for girls to model for him to advertise a glamour agency (I dont mean, porn or anything like that, just an agency that takes nice photos of you, a studio, like). We agreed. It was the funnest experience of my life, to know that my face, and body were appreciated enough to photo. It was so much fun, I wished I could have shown those girls what I was doing.

About a year later I went out with my old school friends and met some of these girls I hadnt seen for years. I went upto one of them and said Hi. She looked at me with a 'do I know you?' look. I said, remember me from school. Her jaw hit the floor. She saidshe couldnt believe it was me because I looked so good. Then she tried to back track and said, oh i didnt mean....lol.

People might not believe this, but it is actually harder to put on weight than it is to lose weight. Ive struggled with it my whole life. And while I

<div class='quotemain'>

So if your spouse became overweight for whatever reason you would no longer find her attractive or beautiful? What about if their hair grows grey? Maybe a wrinkle?

Yes, I am as shallow as a puddle and would divorce them the instant they ceased to look the exact way they did when I married them. Then again, I was talking about being attracted to big bodies to begin with, which is far different from marrying someone I'm attracted to and then adjusting to each other's changing bodies. But feel free to take a cheap shot and misconstrue my words. I don't mind. B)

I've NEVER heard him say disparaging remarks about overweight people...NEVER.

Good for him. Personally, I'm not attracted to big. Does that mean nobody likes big women? Nope. Just not me, and I wouldn't dream of telling anyone else they have to be attracted to what I find physically beautiful.

Oh yeah, another point...suppose a new overweight member of the church or an investigator stumbles upon this thread??? They may be less likely to join the church considering the prejudice many of you have shown.

Perhaps, but then again perhaps the knowledge that God has living prophets and apostles on the earth, and so on, might be more important to them than a few peoples' interpretation of the Word of Wisdom. To me, it would be. But that's just me.

LOL CK.

I'd like to mention something here-I know this thread is about being overweight. However, has anyone considered what being underweight is like? When I started secondary school I was a scrawny little runt, about 7 stone, stick thin legs, my uniform hung off me. I struggled to make friends as I was introverted and shy (hahaha). I eventually got an invite to a party a few weeks into the term, and stayed friends with that girl throughout school. Later on, I was told she initially only invited me as she felt sorry for me and there were all these rumours going around that I was anorexic and on drugs. when I was about 14/15, some girls (I went to an all girls school-girls can be mean) in my form starting picking on me, shouting 'druggy' at me and 'you think you're better than us because you want to be a model so you're not eating'. Utter clap-trap, Id never said anything like that, I wanted to be an archaeologist at this point-the most unglamorous job there is!! I mostly kept to myself and got on with my work. They threw stuff at me and said stuff like, 'you've got no meat on you atall'. I was persecuted for being thin, yet I actually couldnt do anything about it, its just the way I was. I was definitely an ugly duckling at school and it took me a long time to feel comfortable with my body and my looks.

When I went to uni, Me and my tall blonde friend were approached by a photograper who said he was looking for girls to model for him to advertise a glamour agency (I dont mean, porn or anything like that, just an agency that takes nice photos of you, a studio, like). We agreed. It was the funnest experience of my life, to know that my face, and body were appreciated enough to photo. It was so much fun, I wished I could have shown those girls what I was doing.

About a year later I went out with my old school friends and met some of these girls I hadnt seen for years. I went upto one of them and said Hi. She looked at me with a 'do I know you?' look. I said, remember me from school. Her jaw hit the floor. She saidshe couldnt believe it was me because I looked so good. Then she tried to back track and said, oh i didnt mean....lol.

People might not believe this, but it is actually harder to put on weight if ure skinny than it is to lose weight. Ive struggled with being underweight my whole life. And while I do eat healthily, at one point i started eating badly to try and put on weight. I got bad skin, and felt tired and weak.And I didnt put on weight. So it works both ways too. My in laws hate that I can eat whatever I want but dont. My MIL has just been diagnosed with diabetes, shes about 16 stone. Go figure. Now I am a healthy 5 ft 6 and 8 and a half stone. But only now has my body settled down to a healthy weight. The reason I get a bit annoyed is people stuffing themselves and then complaining their fat, when I was bullied for being thin even though there was nothing I could do to change it. I understand the psychological factors behind food, and for that I recommend people seek the help they need to be healthy, and feel happy and comfortable with their bodies.

[My Problem With Church Leadership]

Aphrodite, I don't understand what's keeping you from the temple. Start wearing your garments today, starting right now. Ask God for mercy and faith, tell Him you want to go back to the temple at least one more time to try and sort these things out with your husband.

There's many things keeping from the temple. Its not just the garments, although the weathers hotting up now, so I dont know if I can do that yet But I dont know if I can face the endowment yet. It scares me to think of going through all that again. Plus there's other stuff. We dont pay tithing. I hate the fact that you have to buy your way in. Why does that keep you out of the temple? Its not a question of faith, its common sense. We have a lot of debts to pay off. If we paid tithing we wouldnt be able to do that. Then what, bailiffs, etc? We want to pay off our own debt. If we paid tithing, we'd then have to go running to the Bishop every week with our hands out to get it back again. Why not just keep our own money and pay our own way? The church isnt going to get out of debt for us. Our last Bishop told us that. Plus it would destroy my husbands pride to have to go there every week and ask for our own money back. Whats the point of that?? When we've paid off our debt then we'll consider paying tithing. So thats another reason.

Tell your Bishop and Stake President what your goal is, i.e. to go to the Celestial Room and have a private chat with your husband about the endowment, the church, your questions, etc...

Oh..are you saying I could go in and only go to the celestial room? It might be worth a try if it was just that. Although to go through all of what I would have to to get there just to sit in one room 100 miles away....lol it seems a lot just for that.

(I'm assuming you go to the London Temple? Been there for the rededication when I was 10...awesome temple).

Yes we go to the London temple. I was at the rededication too, I was 8. Maybe we passed each other in the corridor It's a nice temple I suppose. I like the grounds, now that Im allowed to walk around them (we went down as a YSA once and were told we weren't allowed to walk around the grounds. They were scared of what we'd 'get upto'. As if anyone wanting to cause trouble would go to the temple anyway. pathetic)

Don't worry about settling all your concerns at once, and don't worry about being perfect--you or Rob

Maybe thats the key. Im too much of a perfectionist, and Rob is worse. He's a decorator and he's such a perfectionist with his work. Its why he's got so far in his career. He applies the same principles to the rest of his life. And my job involves doing things so perfectly that it literally can mean life or death decisions. I made a mistake once that I'll never do again, that could have cost someone their life. I cant do things by halves. If Im not 100% up there I can't do it, as I know i wont be good enough. But maybe if what you say is right its worth a shot.

Perhaps ask your dad to go with you to help you and your husband understand everything better.

Oh he's been trying to get us to do that for ages. We're both a bit reluctant as my Dad puts me on a pedestal and I dont want him to know the extent of my issues in the church as the last active child of his. I know parents dont have 'favourites' but Ive always been the favoured child. Id hate for him to have that image of me crushed as he relies on me for lots of things. I would hate for him to go to someone else for advice if he felt I wasnt as 'spiritual' or whatever as he thought. Plus Rob's male pride thing (grr why do men have that?) He thinks that my Dad will see him as a failure for not doing his job properly as a husband etc and a returned missionary and all. Rob suggested the temple president but I dunno. He must have better things to do than talk to the likes of us. Plus he'll be old. Not being funny but old people in the church never seem to have mjch of an idea what the younger generations face and go through today. I can see the meeting being a bit of a disaster.

I wish you could hop on a plane too CK and come with us lol

Remind Rob that our best is not enough--but it is necessary. Christ takes care of the rest

I'll try and convince him. And myself.

Your husband is right: the church does expect a lot. I'm not sure of your ward/branch's size, but of course, the smaller the unit the more callings and expectations. That of course takes up time.

Our ward is very small, maybe 70 people out every week. so yes we have more responsibilities. I dont like our ward, thats half the problem. Ive wanted to go to my ward for ages (which is huge-less responsinbilities, more young people, more friends)but Rob doesnt want to move. Hes in EQ and the president is a couple of years older than him. They dont get on, the pres is smarmy and self righteous and tries to make Rob look stupid, and himself good. He's full of it. So Rob does the bare minimum which is still a lot. But the pres never listens to his suggestions, and they never have meetings, he decides everything. So Rob has given up trying as it wont get him anywhere. Im on primary presidency but seriously, Im thinking of calling it quits. I cant do it anymore. I cant teach kids stuff Im not sure if I believe myself. I need to sort myself out first before Im in a position to teach anyone else. Plus I really feel Ive missed out these last two years. I dont get lessons or the chance to hear and discuss church doctrine. Im stuck in a tiny room at the end of the church with these kids. But then the other counsellor is leaving in 2 months and i feel bad about deserting the pres....aaahhhhh more mind games. Im still working on what to do about that. Im the chorister too, i can just about cope with that. If anyone dares slate my choice of hymns I give them my 'look' and they never speak to me again. Ho hum.

I like the idea of the missionaries. The trouble is a lot of them are robotic clones spouting off what they're taught from a manual. If they were frank, and up for an open discussion and put the manual away, I might consider it. But the missionaries we've had lately havent been great. Ill think about it.

Thanks for all your suggestions thus far. Its given me food for thought.

[My Problem With Church Leadership]

Okay - You were an adult. Here's how an adult would handle it. Ask the Bishop to speak with you. Tell him your concerns. Instruct him that if he has isssues with you, that you, the adult, are to be contacted, not your parents. Further, tell him that based on what you heard was said to the parents, you have ascertained who he was referring to and are now concerned about confidentiality or concerned that others are attributing his comments to have meant you and Rob and you now wanted him to correct the mistaken impression that he gave.

Being an adult, can we assume that you did that?

Yes, we did. My husband called him up and said almost word for word what you just said.

I know that I have come across as harsh, and for that I apologize. The tone of your notes seemed so bent on proving the church wrong, and I don't have a lot of sympathy for that, to be honest. Too often people don't want to pay the price to keep their testimony, which is just as important as gaining it in the first place, and so I thought that was where you were going. I know now what the source of your problems are.

Thats ok. My husband has said the same thing to me. 'stop trying to destroy My testimony just because you dont have one of your own'. Brother Dorsey is right really-I need someone to feel the same as me and agree with me because I feel really alone in all this.

You mean more MEN would get a chance. You forget this church is ran by men-We women would not get a chance to be at the other side of the table

With that statement Aphrodite it is obvious that you really don't understand the Priesthood of the Lord.

I do understand, Im not a feminist. It was just palerider said if more people had the oppurtunity to be bishops or whatever. I was pointing out us women cant have the oppurtunity to do that. Whether the priesthood is of God or not, its still held by men, as God himself is a Man. I wasnt being funny, its a fact I was merely pointing out. I dont have a problem with the priesthood, or with women not having the priesthood. But the church is still run by men!!

CK-Thanks for your plane analogy I like it. Except my Dad compared it to a plane ride with someone from the 16th century!

Did you have friends or family go through with you for the first time? Or was it just your fiance?

There were a few people there.My Mum and Dad, the bishop and his wife, my friend and Robs auntie and Uncle. I was glad of Robs auntie otherwise I might have ran out the room. Everyone else was on the other side of the room, so I couldnt be with the two people I needed with me the most-My Dad and my fiancee. I was very angry with my Mum and wished she wasnt there. I have gone over this in my previous temple post. But my relationship with my Mum was very strained at that time and I didnt want her to be there. She is half responsible for my bad experience because of the way she behaved in there. Our relationship is still strained to this day, but not because of the temple, in spite of it.

CK, I had all the prep anyone else has. I had temple prep classes given by a 75year old woman that were not helpful. Shes a sweet lady but totally out of touch with the youth of today and the entire modern world. She just showed us cheesy videos and talked about the plan of salvation-They perhaps raised more questions than answered.

We both sat down with the stake president beforehand. He's such a good man and he was really the only person that made me feel even slightly relaxed about the temple. He did open himself up to questions, but I couldnt think of any. My husband asked a few, even though he had been. I did feel a bit better after that chat tho.

I liked your suggestions for me CK-However, and this is where i AM angry. Because of all my issues, I am not 'worthy' to enter the temple. (I hate that phrase). I dont have a recommend, it ran out. So I cant go anyway. But even if I did what you said about the celestial room-when i went the first time my husband was like, now you can ask questions. I almost laughed. I thought, I have all these people grinning manically at me, whereas I felt if I opened my mouth I would burst into tears. I just clamped my mouth shut and shook my head. My husband was really worried about me. As if I could talk about it right then!! I just wanted to leave straight away. But I had to sit there for appearances sake. The second and final time I went I didnt feel so traumatised, but I still felt unable to speak. I mean, talk about pressure-You can now ask all your questions about life and the universe, starting.....now! Its not a natural environment. All my questions came on the way home, or in the shower, or at church, you get my drift? How could I have thought of everything I wanted to ask, and asked in in that room in a particular time frame? Yeah I had lots of questions, but afterwards. And then when I did ask, all I ever got was 'too sacred' 'cant talk about it' 'go back then you ask'. Uh, except I cant now go back. So my questions have gone, and will remain, unanswered. Moksha, it is murphys law-you struggle with things and have questions-so you're denied the one place we're allowed to have them answered. Hmm. Maybe I wont understand them till I go back. But I wont be worthy until I can have them answered!!! Its a catch 22.

How does he feel about the temple covenants and endowment?

I want to know what does your husband think of all this?

Well, we've gone through a rollercoaster on this. He knows how I feel. We had a really big chat a few weeks ago. I wish we hadnt now as he ended up getting really upset. He said we're sealed in the temple, so if you reject the temple where does that leave me? I tried to tell him that, he's not going anywhere at the moment either, as he doesnt have a recommend. I said, if we both dies tomorrow, neither of us would make it. But for some reason, he thinks that because I voice my problems and he doesnt, I'm the one doing wrong. Even though really we're both the same.

So, we went out for a drive and really talked about how we feel about the church. Turns out he feels the same way I do. He has issues with many of the things I do. I asked him why he doesnt read the scriptures, why he doesnt pray. He says that he's worried that if he starts doing all that, he'll realise the truthfulness of the church, and then his conscience will dictate to him and he'll have to start doing things he now isnt. He says, i cant do everything-Ive tried and just felt guilty, the church expects too much from you. So I took a step back and detatched myself a bit, and dont feel guilty. I was like, but Rob, Im doing the same as you, just turning up to church on a Sunday. We're both no better or worse than each other. He says, yeah but I have to have some hope, and try. So I said, but thats not enough-just because you still believe it, but are not doing it, doesnt mean you'll go further. I said all Im doing is voicing all this whereas you're trying to tell yourself you're doing ok when really we're the same. He says, 'I know, I know' then bangs his head off the steering wheel and says 'its too much'.

However, Rob loves the temple. He loved it from day 1. So I have to be careful what I say about it to him as I dont want to upset him. Basically, Robs issues are that he's not good enough, he cant do it all. Wheras mine are, I dont get it, why should I? Im feisty and strong willed, he's sensitive and reserved. So anyway in the end I said, well, what should we do? He said I dont know. I said maybe we should talk to someone to help us move forward. I dont know who tho. And thats as far as we got.

So what I do now? I cant go in. Its catch 22. Thats why I feel cross about this. I cant move forward. aahhhh this is doing my head in!!!!

[My Problem With Church Leadership]

Why is that a problem? I'm not advocating 24/7 on your knees. But you should gain a testimony of what is being taught to you. First, you accuse the leadership of demanding blind obedience. I give you the key to gain your own testimony, and it is too much. Are you just never satisfied??

Maybe Ill give it a shot next time :)

We had a similar meeting with the parents during a 3rd hour discussion (no youth) to discuss the problem and give them a heads up, since most parents are notoriously blind when it comes to the disgressions of their own kids

But how is that your problem? Fine, you might be concerned because you're good people but really, what right do you have to let 'blind' parents know? When I was at school a couple of girls got pregnant-the school would never have dreamed of calling a meeting with their parents to say look what your kids doing. Instead, they approached the girls directly to offer confidential support and help if they needed it.

I think the Bishop was right to call attention to this situation so that they could work with their kids, YSA or not..

As you have just mentioned and as my bishop did, the people with problems were totally bypassed and it was the parents who were approached. To me, that does more damage as the 'kids' or 'young single ADULTS' are treated as such, as the message being given is, we dont trust you, but we trust your parents. If you are unmarried in the church you are treated like a child with no self control. That was the way I was treated. My Dad agreed with this meeting-we had arguments on it. I said to him, Dad, if you were single and had a few problems, do you seriously think they would call a meeting with your elderly mother to say, your 50 year old son is being a bad boy? Of course not he said. Right. Of course not. Why not? Its the same situation, so why wouldnt they? Because YSA are seen as immature kids. They are adults too and should be treated as such. That was my issue with the whole situation.

You obviously don't understand the temple ceremony or the importance of garments.

So explain it to me. What people usually say is 'its too sacred to talk about'. convenient, and unhelpful to me, or, garments are a reminder of the covenants ive made and a protection. well, a) i dont remember half the specific covenants as I mentioned earlier anyway, but believe me that temple ceremony is permanently engraved in my head. I dont need reminding. I'll never forget it thats for sure!! b)at one point I did wear my garments. The only thing it 'protected' me from was bending down (they showed) half the clothes shops in town, feeling good about my body, (it looks crap in them) underwear shopping with my sister (something we've done for years), enjoying hot weather, feeling uncomfortable on a daily basis not to mention red rashes from sweating profusely, infections and less support. Yup, they certainly protected me from all those things. I felt utterly miserable having to wear them. Now I dont, I feel free. If they have any other purposes other than protection and reminders please let me know.

You obviously are full of anger and feel that somehow the church has slighted you

You're right. I feel the church doesn't teach us enough about our history, it glosses over the negative parts to make it look perfect-I feel we should be told everything to be allowed to make our own decisions and pray about it as you suggested. The only reason to hide information is if the church is somehow ashamed of it, or it is indeed, wrong. So yes I feel slighted in that as Ive only found out a lot of things about the church just recently. It feels like Ive been living a false church all these years as I havent known half the stuff that happened when it was restored and in subsequent years. I feel cheated.

Plus, since I went to the temple my testimony has dramatically disappeared. I thought it was supposed to be the pinnacle of spirituality and what i had been waiting my whole life for. I was told it was wonderful and 'I would love it' Instead, it was a huge disappointment and has had such an effect on me. I didnt love it, I hated it. I feel...empty I suppose. I thought the temple would make me feel spiritually complete. But it didnt, and i feel like there's still something missing and I've been somehow cheated out of that. So you're right, I feel angry about that. I feel angry I wasnt given enough information to adequately prepare. And now Im suffering for it. I honestly felt traumatised by the temple. I remember sitting there in the sessioon with my head spinning, fighting back tears thinking, this isnt my church, there's been a terrible mistake somewhere. And that feeling has never left me.

The temple is the main cause of all my problems. Thats the reason I joined this site in the first place, to try and find answers and peace. If I hadnt gone to the temple, half my issues wouldnt exist. The temple has ruined my testimony and for that, I feel angry. I wish I could get over it but I cant. Ive prayed to feel peace but I dont.

[My Problem With Church Leadership]

That's a completely different issue than whether or not the prophet's counsel about earrings is silly or valid. I agree that bishop made a ridiculous blunder and I don't blame you for having negative feelings about it!

Believe me thats just one of a few, CK! I know its a ridiculous blunder as you put it but when they affect your life in the church it starts to grate a bit, you know what Im saying?

All I can say is that garments are part and parcel of covenants you and I made in the temple. I'd give serious consideration to breaking that covenant over issues like earrings and the occasional foolish bishop's actions.

Believe me I have. Its all Ive thought about the last two years. I dont remember making covenants to wear garments. At any rate, even if I did, I hardly had a choice, the temple gives you about two seconds to make a choice while you're in there, and I was too scared to think clearly so if I agreed it was because I didnt feel I had a choice. So in my opinion the covenants I made weren't valid.

Even so, garments fall to me in the same category. I dont think the Lord cares one iota what underwear Im wearing. For a church to make your underwear an issue seems slightly perverse.

Oh please

Are you saying that to CK, or me, Susie??

[My Problem With Church Leadership]

I wish I could figure out what my problem is so I don't get called a 3rd time......I really believe if more people had the chance to sit behind the desk it would make a difference...then again...what do I know....

You mean more MEN would get a chance. You forget this church is ran by men-We women would not get a chance to be at the other side of the table

We should pray about EVERY thing we hear at church, about EVERY calling we receive, about EVERY scripture we read to determine for ourselves, by the Spirit, the will of God for us and the truthfulness of those things. But there is a line between obeying because we have a testimony, obeying blindly, and then disobeying because "how dare someone tell me that I shouldn't have 2 earrings"...

lol Id never be off my knees if I did that. I dont think its necesary tpo do that for talks etc...rush home and ask, is this right? Most of it is obvious. Its just some specific issues that then come up that I think hang on a minute...

By all means, if the Spirit has warned you against only wearing one pair of earrings...then wear two or three pairs.

Case 1: Ive worn only one pair of earrings for years. I did have another as a teenager but only for a very short time. I havent recieved any blessings as a result, nor have I felt the spirit confirm to me you're doing the right thing. And when I had more earrings I didnt apostacize. Therefore, I ascertain that the Lord is not bothered about me personally wearing as many earrings as I like.

Case 2: When I was in YSA and dating my husband my Bishop decided that the YSA were all getting too fruity for his liking. So, he called in all the parents of the YSA for a meeting-not us, just our parents, bearing in mind we're all over 18 and we're all adults. We were not told about this, or included. The Bishop then went through figures and statistics of all the sexual misdemeanors the YSA had done in the last year. i.e 1 had full sex, 2 involved in heavy petting etc. I think his aim was to try and 'help' us. Bearing in in mind there was about 12 YSA and a few were couples, so basically it was not difficult to work out who had done what. After that meeting, a few ppl came up to us and were like, so, what did you that was on the list? And stuff like that, you get the idea. Everyone who was at that meeting now had a pretty good idea what the YSA were 'upto' due to confidential and private conversations with the bishop. I didnt need to 'pray' about that to know what he did was totally and utterly unnaceptable and wrong. He treated us all as children being naughty, not adults, he betrayed confidences and personal information. HE MADE A BIG MISTAKE that really affected Rob and I as we had people whispering about and speculating as to who had done what. Very unhealthy and innapropriate.

Case 3: As I have issues with the temple I havent been wearing my garments. I was at work one day when I fell ill with severe heart problems. I was rushed down to A&E, obviously in my uniform. Straight away, they told me to take it off so they could do ecgs and whatever. I silently thanked my 'rebellion' or whatever you wanna call it that I wasnt wearing them as she could straight away hook me up and sort me out. Now, if I had been wearing them, I would have had to show them to the nurse as she was there. It was hardly the time or the place for me to say 'can you wait outside a minute' as she would have said, oh dont worry ive seen it all before, just take it off. She would then have had to see the garments, watch me take off my bra, then the garments, then put my bra back on so she could do an ecg. All the while Im Short of breath and dizzy, nauseaous, heart going like the clappers, Id have had to faff around sorting my garments out. As a result she would have seen more of my body (gasp!) and it would have delayed my treatment, and probably made me look like a fool. Now, if it was a reversable situation, and something had happened that was good while I had my garments on, we would have all said, oh look how the garments are 'protecting' us. So, does this mean that the Lord is 'confirming' my decision not to wear them through this incident??

When people say to pray about whether its right or not, Im assuming people think you'll get the expected answer. Well, what if you dont? Does that mean its wrong? Then you have to deal witha contradiction-my leader says its right, ive had answers it isnt. What do you do then??

Its one thing to say, trust the leaders as their decisions are revealed to them, then to say, pray about it to see if its right-as someone said, pray about EVERy little thing. And what if your answer is that what someone told you is wrong?? Has tis happened to anyone else, and what did they do? This is why I have these issues...

[My Problem With Church Leadership]

I am completely active and have been my entire life and don't relate to anything you just said..

Why are you telling me that?Do you think that by being active your whole life and never having a problem in the church makes you somehow superior? Coz thats the feeling Im getting.

Yeah - you have an immature victim mentality

How does having problems and issues with certain aspects of the church Ive been brought up in my entire life make me immature? If I was immature Id have said F the lot of it months ago and gone and done what I want. Instead I am asking for peoples advice and thoughts on my problems and issues to see how I can best cope with what is to me a distressing situation. I am thinking and pondering deeply on all my issues with the church. If I didnt care do you think Id be here? Your response is just so typical of so many self righteous members. You're whining, you're immature, etc, Just because they cant relate to you. Just because you are obviously so perfect Snow, doesnt mean peopel like me are less worthy. As someone said, we are at different stages. Isnt the gospel about learning and growing?? You're snobby and self righteous attitude isnt consistent with how a church member is supposed to behave.

I hope you can acquire a witness of these things so that you can be at peace with the aspects of Christ's Church that trouble you, and not forfeit a closeness to God which He reserves for those who covenant with Him and keep His words (John 14:23).

me too

They are an intelligent and mature woman's courageous questions asked of an orgaization that will very likely condemn her merely for even entertaining them.

As snow proved with his post!

In the end it really didn't matter because it was just something of the world, something that really doesn't matter.

Brother Dorsey thank you for your kind post. You have just made the point I have been trying to get across-its 'just' something of the world. Exactly!! It doesnt matter!!! Thats my point. We arent going to take this stuff with us. If wearing certain clothes or hairstyles etc makes me feel happy and good about myself, why should it matter? We wont be tattooed and pierced in the next life. But if it makes me temporarily, earthly happy or whatever and helps me along my journey, surely thats then a good thing? Instead, by wanting to do some things we are beiing 'disobedient' or 'selfish' or 'immature'. Then you're made to feel like a sinner for having the audacity to even entertain wanting to take part in something of 'the world'. We live in this world after all. The church seems to have a habit of thinking up things to now be classified as 'sins' that are so trivial, when there are more weighty issues to worry about.

I feel it was meant for me as a way for the Lord to test my obedience.

Thats what gets me-This image of God sitting up there in heaven thinking up yet more things to test us on. Havent we got enough to be getting on with? As if life isnt full enough of tests already. I dont even see them as tests, I see it as, 'life' and get on with it. As the saying goes stuff happens (although it isnt stuff lol). I cant honestly believe the Lord is delighting in my troubles, rubbing his hands together and thinking, what shall I give her next?? Take away her music, ok lets make that a sin. Ooh I know she loves books, lets make reading a sin. Thats where my issues with leaders come in. I think its misguided judgment, and not what the Lord wants.

well there is one lady in our ward that thinks she's some sort of victim. She's wierd. She sometimes give her testimony in Church and everybody notices how bizarre she is.

She sounds like she obviously has problems. Maybe you should go and talk to her and see if there's anything you can do to help her.

we either agree and go along, or disagree and not go along

There it goes again, the staunch black and white opinion of a closed minded member. Snow, I take it you must have had a pretty easy and uneventful life to say such a thing. Nothing is ever that simple. There are more grey areas than not. If things were that black and white you'd have church full of obedient non questioning clones, sorry people, like yourself, and anti mormons who hate you. That is not the case atall. Only someone with a pathological underdevelopment of their own awareness on their social situation and surroundings would think such things

I have spent 10yrs of life serving as a Bishop/Branch President....I will say this to you....its always easy to sit outside and look in and make or offer criticism.....I do wonder how you would do it different if you ever were called to that Dictator position to get it back on course....keeping in mind you have to deal with all sorts of people and personalities and criticism etc. Don't forget the occasional cussing you get and whatever else I have left out. Have I seen it all....probally not.....But I will say....nothing surprises me.

I appreciate its an unenviable job Pale. Im sure you did a great job.

For some reason this just seemed appropriate:

Yet another typical church response-you have issues and you voice them and you're 'whining' instead of trying to work through your problems, which is the whole reason I joined this site in the first place. The church can be a lonely place when you're seen to be whining and no one wants to help you. I find it interesting that Elphaba has stuck up for my own beliefs as an individual, and recognises that this is a distressing situation for me, Wheras the 'members' have insulted me and told me to stop whining. Thats Christ like love for ya, and yet another issue I have with the church-non members seem to be more christian and christ like than the members.

And if you were to go back and actually read Aphrodite's OP, you would see she believes the same thing, at least that is how I read it. However, she is not as far along the path as you are. She has questions. Asking those questions does not make her a victim. It makes a courageous person. Overreacting to her questions is the more outrageous behavior.

Absolutely. Thanks Elphie

So, who here thinks that if I sat down with God and told him my problems, he'd say, 'you immature child. Get on with it and stop whining', or do you think he'd say, 'I love you my child,' and counsel me to stay strong and then show me the way. So to those with unhelpful posts, Take note. Snow, if the former God I mentioned is the God you believe in you dont belong in a christian church.

I am completely active and have been my entire life and don't relate to anything you just said

Why are you telling me that?Do you think that by being active your whole life and never having a problem in the church makes you somehow superior? Coz thats the feeling Im getting.

Yeah - you have an immature victim mentality

How does having problems and issues with certain aspects of the church Ive been brought up in my entire life make me immature? If I was immature Id have said F the lot of it months ago and gone and done what I want. Instead I am asking for peoples advice and thoughts on my problems and issues to see how I can best cope with what is to me a distressing situation. I am thinking and pondering deeply on all my issues with the church. If I didnt care do you think Id be here? Your response is just so typical of so many self righteous members. You're whining, you're immature, etc, Just because they cant relate to you. Just because you are obviously so perfect Snow, doesnt mean peopel like me are less worthy. As someone said, we are at different stages. Isnt the gospel about learning and growing?? You're snobby and self righteous attitude isnt consistent with how a church member is supposed to behave.

I hope you can acquire a witness of these things so that you can be at peace with the aspects of Christ's Church that trouble you, and not forfeit a closeness to God which He reserves for those who covenant with Him and keep His words (John 14:23).

me too

They are an intelligent and mature woman's courageous questions asked of an orgaization that will very likely condemn her merely for even entertaining them.

As snow proved with his post!

In the end it really didn't matter because it was just something of the world, something that really doesn't matter.

Brother Dorsey thank you for your kind post. You have just made the point I have been trying to get across-its 'just' something of the world. Exactly!! It doesnt matter!!! Thats my point. We arent going to take this stuff with us. If wearing certain clothes or hairstyles etc makes me feel happy and good about myself, why should it matter? We wont be tattooed and pierced in the next life. But if it makes me temporarily, earthly happy or whatever and helps me along my journey, surely thats then a good thing? Instead, by wanting to do some things we are beiing 'disobedient' or 'selfish' or 'immature'. Then you're made to feel like a sinner for having the audacity to even entertain wanting to take part in something of 'the world'. We live in this world after all. The church seems to have a habit of thinking up things to now be classified as 'sins' that are so trivial, when there are more weighty issues to worry about.

I feel it was meant for me as a way for the Lord to test my obedience.

Thats what gets me-This image of God sitting up there in heaven thinking up yet more things to test us on. Havent we got enough to be getting on with? As if life isnt full enough of tests already. I dont even see them as tests, I see it as, 'life' and get on with it. As the saying goes stuff happens (although it isnt stuff lol). I cant honestly believe the Lord is delighting in my troubles, rubbing his hands together and thinking, what shall I give her next?? Take away her music, ok lets make that a sin. Ooh I know she loves books, lets make reading a sin. Thats where my issues with leaders come in. I think its misguided judgment, and not what the Lord wants.

well there is one lady in our ward that thinks she's some sort of victim. She's wierd. She sometimes give her testimony in Church and everybody notices how bizarre she is.

She sounds like she obviously has problems. Maybe you should go and talk to her and see if there's anything you can do to help her.

we either agree and go along, or disagree and not go along

There it goes again, the staunch black and white opinion of a closed minded member. Snow, I take it you must have had a pretty easy and uneventful life to say such a thing. Nothing is ever that simple. There are more grey areas than not. If things were that black and white you'd have church full of obedient non questioning clones, sorry people, like yourself, and anti mormons who hate you. That is not the case atall. Only someone with a pathological underdevelopment of their own awareness on their social situation and surroundings would think such things

I have spent 10yrs of life serving as a Bishop/Branch President....I will say this to you....its always easy to sit outside and look in and make or offer criticism.....I do wonder how you would do it different if you ever were called to that Dictator position to get it back on course....keeping in mind you have to deal with all sorts of people and personalities and criticism etc. Don't forget the occasional cussing you get and whatever else I have left out. Have I seen it all....probally not.....But I will say....nothing surprises me

I appreciate its an unenviable job Pale. Im sure you did a great job.

For some reason this just seemed appropriate:

Yet another typical church response-you have issues and you voice them and you're 'whining' instead of trying to work through your problems, which is the whole reason I joined this site in the first place. The church can be a lonely place when you're seen to be whining and no one wants to help you. I find it interesting that Elphaba has stuck up for my own beliefs as an individual, and recognises that this is a distressing situation for me, Wheras the 'members' have insulted me and told me to stop whining. Thats Christ like love for ya, and yet another issue I have with the church-non members seem to be more christian and christ like than the members.

And if you were to go back and actually read Aphrodite's OP, you would see she believes the same thing, at least that is how I read it. However, she is not as far along the path as you are. She has questions. Asking those questions does not make her a victim. It makes a courageous person. Overreacting to her questions is the more outrageous behavior.

Absolutely. Thanks Elphie

So, who here thinks that if I sat down with God and told him my problems, he'd say, 'you immature child. Get on with it and stop whining', or do you think he'd say, 'I love you my child,' and counsel me to stay strong and then show me the way. So to those with unhelpful posts, Take note. Snow, if the former God I mentioned is the God you believe in you dont belong in a christian church.

[My Problem With Church Leadership]

Ok my post may have got swallowed up or ignored haha. So I thought Id try making it a new topic on my issues with the church leadership-and the church as an organisation in general.

What members tend to say is that while the gospel is perfect the leaders in it are not and make mistakes. Basically the tired old phrase the church is perfect the men in it are not which Im frankly sick of hearing.

The reason this bugs me is that we are then completely at the mercy of our imperfect leaders. What one Bishop decides is ok, another will utterly go against. People have their own ideas and agendas, and some people in leadership positions are downright nasty and can make your life difficult. Your church life can be miserable, and unprogressable, due to the fault of a leader. It can and does happen, Ive seen it myself.

So, my question is, why should we be affected by the decisions of a dodgy leader? Why should I live my life doing things that in all reality might be pointless? It feels like you're a pawn in a game led by a very specific and small number of people. You are totally at their beck and call, at their mercy. So what if they're wrong? You are doing things for them, not for the Lord, you are a victim of and are carrying out false actions on their part. So you are living your life for men and not for God. Yet in D&C it says whether it be out of my mouth or out of the mouth of my servants it is the same. That to me means whatever the 'called' decide he will support. which then contradicts the whole men are not perfect thing, as the lord is allowing them to make mistakes that adversely affect you. Am I making sense?

Plus, when you actually sit down and think about some of the things we have to do it does border on the ridiculous. Ive mentioned these things before, but when I come to my day of judgement I honestly do not believe that God will give two hoots how many earrings Ive got, what clothes I wear, what music I listen to. Im sure he'll be interested in my works, my charity and service, and what is in my heart. Not, hmmm you had two earrings. Off to the telestial kingdom with you!!!! It does seem ridiculous!!!!!!

Plus, prend, you are right, things do change!! The temple has changed so drastically over the years. Things have been taken out. So, are those things still relevant and we arent told about it, or are they irrelavnt in which case those people who had the old way did it for nothing?

I'm not trying to be obtuse, but a few people have said 'have faith' and 'just trust in the Lord'. Thats all well and good, but thats basically saying, do it anyway and hope for the best. Faith is after all, basically 'hope' as Alma says, things which are not seen but which are hoped for. At the end of the day no one actually knows what will happen when we die. No one! No one has seen it, we havent been there. In short, we dont know. we just have to hope for the best, and hope its true. So, to just obey and do all that the church tells you seems so pointless. We SHOULD question, we SHOULD be taking control of our lives, evaluationg them all the time so we are doing whats best for us and our families. Not just sailing through doing random things taught by the church and hoping for the best.

My current thoughts and position on the church is this: I refuse to have my life dictated to me and led through the faults and weakness of men who think they're doing the best for me. I know whats best for me better than people at church! Therefore, I'll be the best person I can be on my and the Lords terms. Ill give service and charity, Ive devoted my life to caring for and looking after others with my career. Ill be the best wife I can be, Ill be the best Mother, I'll pray and talk to the Lord for guidance and to draw closer to him. Ill live the commandements. I'll read the scriptures as they generally teach the basics of christianity. Honesty, love respect for parents etc. Ill go to church sacrament meetings for the sacrament and to feel the spirit from the hymns. I do not wish to participate in sunday school or activities etc as you just get caught up in all the church rituals and rules that take away from the simplicity of christianity.

I dont hate the church, I just feel its slightly off the path for true christainity (due to the faults of 'men') and takes away the focus from faith works and charity. If I cut out all that and live it as basically as possible from a christian point of view, while still having a life, I believe when I die, if there is a God, which I believe there is but do not KNOW there is, he will say to me, well done thou good and faithful servant. Wow I feel really emotional having written that last bit. I feel its confirmed for me, I really felt really overpowered just now, that this is the right path for me, the right way to go. I think ppl will still make it if they're church members-theyve just gone a really long winded way about it. And thats upto people to decide. I dont think the temple rituals, signs tokens, etc will get me into heaven any more than saying hail marys will. Its how I am as a person, what I do to be a good christian. I believe with all my heart that this the right way for me and I wont be denied the blessings of heaven.

Any thoughts??

[Take Me On By Aha]

I love that song. Its been covered too. Although its Take on me, Elph!

[I'm 250 Lbs. And I'm Beautiful!]

I'm not trying to offend anyone or be 'fattist' or whatever the politically correct term is; but I think all this big is beautiful kind of talk is wrong. At the end of the day, people are that size because they are eating to much of the wrong kinds of food. In short, they are abusing their bodies. And that is definitely not beautiful.

Many of you may know I am in the health care profession, and I can tell you only a small number of drugs and treatments make you gain weight. Thyroid problems and chemotherapy being the main ones I can think of. And we're talking maybe one or two stone, not enough to make you morbidly obese. A 250 lb person weighs that amount because they are stuffing their faces!!! (Im not as diplomatic as you CK!)

It frustrates me when people try to tell me being fat is ok. Its not ok, it causes a multitude of health problems including raised cholesterol, high blood pressure, heart attacks and strokes. It teaches your children bad habits. My kids will look at a macdonalds the same way I view heroin! lol maybe a bit of an exageration but you get my drift.

The Goddess

[Mormon Chapter 9]

Okay I am really struggling to have faith here. I guess you could say that I used to have the faith of a child....all believing, all knowing, all trusting. Now I feel that faith been shaken as I realize that our leaders do make mistakes, are not perfect, give bad advise, etc.

I have also been pondering the mysteries of the Lord and why he would allow pologamy, not give blacks the priesthood, etc and if all this "revelation" was just shortcomings on man's part. But at the same time it is said that the Lord will not allow the church to be led astray. So I don't know.

Anyway, I cam across this yesterday (yes, I'm behind!) and it just jumped out at me....It's Mormon Chapter 9 verse 9 and 10 in paticualar but the whole cahpter really.

To save time I won't type it all here, but what do you all think of thi sin relation to what I said above?

Prend1, You have voiced the same feelings and issues I am having with the church. The posts here have been excellent and have made me think a lot. However, plainbook (yours was the best post btw) what you say is that while the gospel is perfect the leaders in it are not and make mistakes. Basically the tired old phrase the church is perfect the men in it are not which Im frankly sick of hearing.

The reason this bugs me is that we are then completely at the mercy of our imperfect leaders. What one Bishop decides is ok, another will utterly go against. People have their own ideas and agendas, and some people in leadership positions are downright nasty and can make your life difficult. Your church life can be miserable, and unprogressable, due to the fault of a leader. It can and does happen, Ive seen it myself.

So, my question is, why should we be affected by the decisions of a dodgy leader? Why should I live my life doing things that in all reality might be pointless? It feels like you're a pawn in a game led by a very specific and small number of people. You are totally at their beck and call, at their mercy. So what if they're wrong? You are doing things for them, not for the Lord, you are a victim of and are carrying out false actions on their part. So you are living your life for men and not for God. Yet in D&C it says whether it be out of my mouth or out of the mouth of my servants it is the same. That to me means whatever the 'called' decide he will support. which then contradicts the whole men are not perfect thing, as the lord is allowing them to make mistakes that adversely affect you. Am I making sense?

Plus, when you actually sit down and think about some of the things we have to do it does border on the ridiculous. Ive mentioned these things before, but when I come to my day of judgement I honestly do not believe that God will give two hoots how many earrings Ive got, what clothes I wear, what music I listen to. Im sure he'll be interested in my works, my charity and service, and what is in my heart. Not, hmmm you had two earrings. Off to the telestial kingdom with you!!!! It does seem ridiculous!!!!!!

Plus, prend, you are right, things do change!! The temple has changed so drastically over the years. Things have been taken out. So, are those things still relevant and we arent told about it, or are they irrelavnt in which case those people who had the old way did it for nothing?

I'm not trying to be obtuse, but a few people have said 'have faith' and 'just trust in the Lord'. Thats all well and good, but thats basically saying, do it anyway and hope for the best. Faith is after all, basically 'hope' as Alma says, things which are not seen but which are hoped for. At the end of the day no one actually knows what will happen when we die. No one! No one has seen it, we havent been there. In short, we dont know. we just have to hope for the best, and hope its true. So, to just obey and do all that the church tells you seems so pointless. We SHOULD question, we SHOULD be taking control of our lives, evaluationg them all the time so we are doing whats best for us and our families. Not just sailing through doing random things taught by the church and hoping for the best.

My current thoughts and position on the church is this: I refuse to have my life dictated to me and led through the faults and weakness of men who think they're doing the best for me. I know whats best for me better than people at church! Therefore, I'll be the best person I can be on my and the Lords terms. Ill give service and charity, Ive devoted my life to caring for and looking after others with my career. Ill be the best wife I can be, Ill be the best Mother, I'll pray and talk to the Lord for guidance and to draw closer to him. Ill live the commandements. I'll read the scriptures as they generally teach the basics of christianity. Honesty, love respect for parents etc. Ill go to church sacrament meetings for the sacrament and to feel the spirit from the hymns. I do not wish to participate in sunday school or activities etc as you just get caught up in all the church rituals and rules that take away from the simplicity of christianity.

I dont hate the church, I just feel its slightly off the path for true christainity (due to the faults of 'men') and takes away the focus from faith works and charity. If I cut out all that and live it as basically as possible from a christian point of view, while still having a life, I believe when I die, if there is a God, which I believe there is but do not KNOW there is, he will say to me, well done thou good and faithful servant. Wow I feel really emotional having written that last bit. I feel its confirmed for me, I really felt really overpowered just now, that this is the right path for me, the right way to go. I think ppl will still make it if they're church members-theyve just gone a really long winded way about it. And thats upto people to decide. I dont think the temple rituals, signs tokens, etc will get me into heaven any more than saying hail marys will. Its how I am as a person, what I do to be a good christian. I believe with all my heart that this the right way for me and I wont be denied the blessings of heaven.

Any thoughts??

sorry prend i realised i have sort of hijacked your post as i got carried away with my own thoughts on things, albeit similar to yours. I should have started a separate post in general discussion. sorry

[Horrific 13 Year Old Crime Spree.]

QUOTE

The two boys tore down the hall of Patton Middle School after lunch, swatting the bottoms of girls as they ran -- what some kids later said was a common form of greeting.

But bottom-slapping is against policy in McMinnville Public Schools. So a teacher's aide sent the gawky seventh-graders to the office, where the vice principal and a police officer stationed at the school soon interrogated them.

After hours of interviews with students the day of the February incident, the officer read the boys their Miranda rights and hauled them off in handcuffs to juvenile jail, where they spent the next five days.

Now, Cory Mashburn and Ryan Cornelison, both 13, face the prospect of 10 years in juvenile detention and a lifetime on the sex offender registry in a case that poses a fundamental question: When is horseplay a crime?

That is ridiculous. I went to a a strict, old fashioned Girls grammar school that dates back to the 17th century. I loved it. However, the year I started there one of the teachers was suspended and later sacked for sticking his hand down a sixth formers blouse, and taking photographs of pupils, and then putting them on the computer and doing things to them. He was only sacked, not put onthe sex offenders register or anything or jailed. However, he was banned from teaching. He was a 50 something man that should have known better. To put these poor boys up as criminal sex offenders is, well, criminal. That makes me so angry!!!

N.B-We also had a teacher who used to be friends with the sacked teacher. He was a physics professor and used to do dodgy things like turn the lights off at any oppurtunity to 'demonstrate' things, take us into cellars, and HE took photos too that we never saw. He also had this naked barbie he used as a prop when explaining things to us. We thought he was a bit of a perv, but harmless and naive. Nothing was ever done while I was at the school, and as far as I know, he's still teaching there. What he did was worse than those boys in my opinion.

The Goddess xx

[Why Is Alcohol Forbidden When Wine Is Recommended To Timothy In The Nt]

My Dad seems to think the WOW is sort of the least way you can sin. He keeps it fully however. Im not well at the moment, and I had a dream last night that I was sitting in sacrament meeting wih a bottle of wine on the floor, and a wine glass and I was pouring myself glass after glass and sitting there supping it during the talks!!!!!!! Maybe it is for medicinal purposes lol

[Breaking Up]

breaking up is never easy. Do whatever you feel makes you feel better. I always found going out with my friends helped. Go out and have fun. Or read and reflect. Whatever is best for you. I always surrounded myself with friends and they helped me through it.

[Death]

thanku malarie. Its nice to know people are going through the same things as you. I will perhaps tell my husband to tel his Dad what he needs to beofre he dies. I couldnt bear it if he went through life regretting not talking to him. Thank you for your concern and good advice xxxx

[Endowments]

malarie, im so sorry for the difficult time you're having with your family. Can I ask why your parents reacted this way? If they had been to the temple why should they have a problem with you going? How were you 'ruining' their church life by getting married in the temple? Is there more to this? I would say to do whatever you feel is right but if your family are shutting you out maybe you should reconsider. My personal opinion is that it is not worth going through the temple if you lose your family. The church is so big on families so to go to the temple and lose your family seems a little pointless. However, why should your parents behave like spoiled children? im sure you will get a better response if you could shed a bit of light on this xx

[Problems With Bad Music...]

As long as he doesnt play it around the children, Whats the issue? If you really dont like it then ask him to pnly listen on his headphones like the big picture suggested, or when no one other he is home.

My husband and I love music. It is not only our hobby but part of our lives. We like trance, dance, hardcore, club, house and electro. The way the music is marketed is fun, euphoric, sexy, happy. A lot of the words and videos and the dress that goes along with this type of music is quite sexual. Does that mean I'm going to give up buying these CDs, going to music events, raves and dressing up? No! I enjoy it, I couldnt live without it quite frankly. So theres one or two sexual connotations. Big deal. Its not going to make me go out and have sex with a stranger. Bad language in songs-quite pointless but if its part of a song you do find ureself singing it like you said. Can he get a 'clean' version? We have Eminem CDs and some of them i managed to get hold of a clean version. Feels much better.

[Death]

I had a conversation with my husband the other day that has really got me thinking.

My father in law is terminally ill with a long term disease that i cant remember the name of. Its a bit like M.S, basically his organs are shutting down one by one, he is on home o2 and cant walk and has nurses at home, all that kind of stuff. He has been like this for ten years and gets worse every year. I dont know how long he's got left, maybe a couple of years, maybe more maybe less. Its hard to judge. However, there are some complicating factors to this situation. My father in law is a bully. He treats his wife really badly, is never grateful for all she does (she's his carer and does everything). He is not interested in my husband or his life and will periodically call him in to his bedroom to have a go at him about some random thing that happened weeks ago or just because he feels like it. We're talkin effing and blinding and all that kind of stuff.

My husband has only recently felt able to fully tell me that when he and his eldest sister were younger, his Dad used to beat them. He still bears the emotional scars today and so does his sister, big time. He broke a door as a 6 year old child, and his Dad locked him in a room and beat the crap out of him, hitting him around the head and kicking him. Disgusting. Anyway, when my husband was about 12 thats when he started to get ill. My husband is now 27.

So, as you can imagine my husband has a very difficult relationship with his Dad. His nan died recently (His Dad's Mum) and he said Dad will be next I suppose. He started talking about what will happen when he dies. He said, Ive never had a Dad, emotionally or physically, but he is my Dad and I know I'll be devastated when he goes as I wont have had a chance to tell him all the things I want to tell him as my Father, but can't because of what he's done to me. He said, I havent had a Dad in the real sense, I might as well not have one now for all he cares about me.

This conversation just broke my heart and I wanted to comfort my husband. I want to know how to comfort him when his Dad dies, it wont be like normal grief because of these complications. I dont know how to support my husband in this difficult situation now, and when his Dad dies. He finds it hard to have a relationship with my Dad because basically he doesnt know how. He clams up and doesnt know what to say or do, yet he raves about my Dad. This makes it harder, because I am very close to my Dad, and feel luckier than most with the type of Father and relationship I have. I think it just hits home even more to my husband what he has not had.

What can I do to support my husband? I always reaffirm my love for him and tell him I'm always here no matter what, and what a great Father he'll make to our children. But that isn't enough to compensate for the loss of a real father son relationship. Also, when he dies. Does anyone have any thoughts on this difficult issue?

[You Know You Are From Utah If]

When I first came to Utah, I had to ask why everyone was taking vacation at the same time?

My father-in-law rarely made my wife's birthday, because he always went hunting.

Even when it is not hunting season, the hunters are still on the prowl. Their idea of family bonding is to pile into the truck and go look for deer. Once we saw a coyote, which I guess is always allowed to be shot. The dad wanted his six shooter NOW!. He was going to take shots at the coyote that was 200-400 yards away. I was a little nervous. Also the time the sons were trying to shoot a bird out of the sky. I kept thinking, what goes has to come down somewhere.

ive got this book by joseph F Smith called 'answers to gospel questions' and it basically says hunting for pleasure is wrong. He says sometimes it's necessary to kill animals, i.e in times of plague or infestation or whatever, and for food. But killing 'wantonly' for the sheer heck of it is wrong. I have to agree. Animals have spirits and will be resurrected too. Whilst I do eat meat, I eat it sparingly. I know some people eat what they kill, but why? They must be getting some sort of pleasure out of killing it otherwise you could just go to your butcher's for meat. So killing for 'sport' or pleasure is wrong. Even if I was starving and in the wilderness I'd have a hard time having to physically kill an animal myself to eat it. I'd probably vomit and stick to fruit lol.

[Freaked Out]

ok, I've just read wileys post and visited the site _____________ out of curiosity and read a couple of the topics. The reason I came to this site in the first place was to resolve some issues I had and still do have with the temple. Although many people on this site have been a great help to me and I have been trying to work through my issues, albeit very slowly. Anyway, what someone said was that the temple endowment ceremony has changed since before 1990-there were...death rituals?????? What the hell? Thats really scared me now. Can anyone explain? Plus that same person posted a quote from one of the prophets saying the temple ordinances cannot be changed. (this was from before they were changed) So why were they then? The word of the prophets is either true or it isnt. Was he lying? Does that mean the church isnt true??!!! This has really set me back. I was reading that post and my heart was actually thumping because the whole idea of that seems so sick and wrong and.....well evil. I refuse to accept it until someone on here who has been to the temple when these supposed rituals were in force tells me otherwise. Please someone enlighten me this is really freaking me out. I wish I'd never read it.

Edited by Strawberry Fields :We are going to do our best to keep the names of these sites off of LDS Talk.

[Is This Aproppriate?]

Aphrodite,

You are kind. B)

Thanks Dr.T

[Is This Aproppriate?]

carguy, I think you sound like a mature individual with your head screwed on to be asking questions you genuinely want to know the answers to. Never at any point did I think you sounded like an immature teen or that you were having a 'tantrum'. I think they have read you wrong. The reason people are saying those things about you is because they cant think of a decent enough explanation for your question. :)