Third Hour Forum Rules - Please be familiar with these rules before posting

a-train

Members
 View Profile  See their activity

  • Posts

    2474

  • Joined

  • Last visited

 Content Type 

Posts posted by a-train

  6. Becoming gods

    in LDS Gospel Discussion

    Posted

    I believe we will become perfected in our capacities but we will never become a God, because there is only one. We will assist Him in His work, but we will never be what God is.

    Instead of responding to the other post in another post I will respond to you other post to me here...

    Yes, He is Lord over those set up as lords and King over all who would be called kings. Now I DO believe we will be Lords and Kings in the Kingdom of God (it is called a Kingdom for a reason) as the NT teaches. But that will in no way make us what God is.

    Why? Why is He the King of real kings, the Lord of real lords, but not the God of real gods? What is a god?

    And what is God? Is He not a man raised to immortality? Did He not come forth from the womb of woman and grow from infancy to manhood as any other? Did He not suffer the pains of human mortality? Was He not perceived to be so plainly human that his own people rejected Him in Nazereth? Did He not eat and drink and work as any other man? Did He not die and come forth from the grave in a glorious resurrection? Did He not eat with the apostles after He was so raised from the grave? Did they not feel the flesh and bone of His literal physical body? Does He not sit enthroned in yonder heavens in glory and immortality?

    What is the great difference between His species and ours? Some have imagined that He only took up the form of man in an effort to communicate with us. These suggest that this form is not His natural shape or image. Why then does the scripture say that man was made in the image of God? This must mean that God has an image and that it is the image of man.

    All of these efforts to mystify and glorify God in some philosphical mind trick are foolishness. The scriptures are plain. Do not believe these philosophers and their extra-biblical theories. The LDS belief in the raising of man to the throne of God is not extra-biblical. It is explicitly biblical. And the revelations from Jesus Christ to Joseph Smith only confirmed what was already written.

    Satan is a cunning and crafty lier. His first and foremost work is to deny God and to deny man's ability to approach God. He wants us to deny our Heavenly Heritage. He wants us to doubt the literal corporeal nature of God. He wants us to deny the blessings of God which he will never receive. That is his very work. The scriptures are certain on the notion that man is God's offspring whose ultimate capabilities are only fulfilled in ascending to God's throne to sit in it with Him.

    -a-train

  7. Becoming gods

    in LDS Gospel Discussion

    Posted

    This is true. I take into account, however, that since I don't believe God has ever procreated, that Jesus is his only begotten son. We are sons through adoption.

    So if then through the Blood of Jesus and by adoption the children of men are become the sons of God, heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ, sitting in the throne of God with Him and crowned with the glory, the purity, the perfection, and the very appearance of God, what is left for us to deny?

    If it is nothing more than the word "god", you can have it. What does a man raised to such an exalted status require of this faulty collection of but three english letters? Indeed, it is not the Mormons who so often mention this blessed state "godhood", but it is most often referred to by them as "exaltation" which is indeed the word of Jesus when speaking of the very subject of the order of His Kingship over His Kingdom. For He said: "And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted." (Matt. 23:12)

    Call the missionaries, get with your LDS friends and stop kicking the pricks. Take the discussions and read the Book of Mormon. Learn of the truthfulness of the Restored Gospel and enjoy it. This message is not one of rejection, but a call to come forth.

    -a-train

  9. Becoming gods

    in LDS Gospel Discussion

    Posted

    Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. (1 John 3:1-3)

    Do you not believe that we shall be the sons of God, that we shall be like Him, that we shall be as pure as He is?

    -a-train

  12. About Marriage

    in LDS Gospel Discussion

    Posted

    The question posed to our LORD was "according to the law of Moses". The answer was likewise. Under the law of Moses, the parties will not be married beyond death. It is only by the higher law that eternal marriage is made possible.

    The fact that the question was raised shows that it was believed that couples would stay married beyond the grave and into the next world.

    Adam and Eve were married before the fall. How long were they supposed to live in the garden without partaking of the fruit of knowledge of good and evil? If they had obeyed, would they be dead? Would they not still be married?

    Also, will Adam and Eve not be raised again from the grave and be restored in all things? If not, are they redeemed from the fall? If Jesus can save their bodies, their spirits, their status as the first parents of this earth, how is it that He cannot save their marriage?

    Jesus told the Jews that they don't understand the scriptures. It was their misunderstanding of the law he was pointing out, not their misunderstanding of the resurrection.

    -a-train

  17. We can become gods?

    in Christian Beliefs Board

    Posted

    Why would an omnipotent god want other literal gods in his company?

    Why does God want a planet with human beings on it and everything from elephants to rats? Why does God want anything?

    I'll say a word on the matter. I hear constantly that God creates all these things so that he can be worshipped by them, served by them. What service can man do to God? NOTHING. Our worship, our righteousness is filthiness to Him. "But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away." (Isaiah 64:6)

    It is Satan that wants our worship. For he tempts saying: "All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me." (Matt 4:9) Tis all counterfeit.

    The LORD God needs nothing of us. In our worship of Him we do nothing but receive. He is not served by all, but He is the servant of all. "Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many." (Matt 20:28)

    Now if indeed the great work of God is not to be served, but to serve, what then does He do in His service? He came to give man immortality and eternal life.

    The Saviour prayed saying: "Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." (John 17:2-3)

    How will Jesus glorify the Father? By giving eternal life to man.

    How then will we glorify the Father? By taking up eternal life and serving others. What will we do on our thrones? Why, the same thing God does: service to others.

    -a-train

  18. Getting Discouraged

    in Advice Board

    Posted

    What made you join the Church? Was it not because of the serious nature of the purpose of life and your desire to make good eternal decisions? Did you not feel the Spirit of the LORD and have desires to come unto Christ? Is He not calling you today to read the scriptures and pray so that He can speak with you?

    What will we do when we arrive at the judgment bar? Will we be standing there in bright garments next to family and friends whom we were instrumental in bringing to the gospel? Will we be hoping to run and hide and wishing we had done what is right? Will we be mad at ourselves for losing our focus on what is important and being so shortsighted? Will we be standing next to the missionaries and friends who taught us the gospel?

    These are all questions we can answer today. It is our choice. We all have our agency.

    The path to inactivity, apostasy, and sin is simple: forget about eternity and focus on the present. Stop preparing for that great and terrible day and just quit reading, praying, going to meetings, and paying tithing. Allow the worldly pursuits that call on us here to take place of our heavenly pursuits. Above all, procrastinate. Let each Sunday be just one more before you go back. Let each night be just one more before you read the scriptures or say your prayers. In this manner, one day at a time, we become and remain inactive. Once we are fully inactive, our testimony is sure to be tried, for it will have little to stand on. And that is only the start of trouble.

    God bless you and lift you up. Satan surely desires you. Run to Christ and take hold of Victory in Him. Do not procrastinate but choose ye this day.

    -a-train

  19. Becoming gods

    in LDS Gospel Discussion

    Posted · Edited by a-train

    A-Train, to whom was that referring? To whom was it referencing? Jesus’ remark here shows that we do not have to compromise but can actually overcome-even those from Laodicea. What do they/we overcome? It is the indifference, compromise and depending on self and we are to overcome. Something I’m still learning. Something I see as needed in my life cause I cannot do it on my own. See, the cool thing about that passage is seeing the worst of the seven churches can even repent and conquer. See, I see it as conquering though Christ! All glory and honor to HIM!

    We are entrusted and duty bound with the salvation of ourselves on this earth. While salvation is only possible through Jesus, we are not compelled in it, but we must accept it and take it up. Further, we are entrusted and duty bound to administer the gospel message to others including and especially our children whom we have particular responsibility toward.

    Will these obligations be diminished or even vanish as we approach the throne of God? When we overcome and are seated in His throne, will we not have any work to perform? What does it mean to sit in God's throne with Him? Is it not to take up our cross and follow Him? Is it not the work of fishers of men and of talents turned over to the exchangers? Will we not be engaged in the Eternal Work of God?

    What is the reward for those whose talents are expanded?

    Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: (Matthew 25:34)

    A kingdom? A throne?

    And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (Rev. 20:4)

    Yes, those that take up the work of the ministry will receive a crown and a throne just as Jesus promised. And how is it that they rule? Do they make themselves the recipient of service? Lords over the people as the princes of the world?

    Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; Neither as being lord over God’s heritage, but being ensamples to the flock. And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away. (1 Peter 5:2-4)

    Yes, a crown of glory. But not by constraining others as a worldly chief, but by service.

    Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them. But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister; And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant: Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many. (Matthew 20:25-28)

    So what then is the work of the princes of God who sit upon heavenly thrones crowned in His glory? What does it mean to sit with Christ in His throne even as he also overcame and is set in His throne with His Father? It means to be the servant of all.

    The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. (Romans 8:16-18)

    We know very little of the great work we will perform in the Presence of God if we are among those who overcome through the Blood of the Lamb and partake of the inheritance prepared for us. But there can be no doubt that there is indeed a promised kingdom and a throne and an eternal work of service associated thereto.

    He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. (Rev. 21:7)

    -a-train

  21. We can become gods?

    in Christian Beliefs Board

    Posted

    So God is Almighty and omnipotent, and He can create anything ex nihilo, but He can't create other gods?

    If we don't believe that God can create a planet and put a man thereon and give him all dominion over it, then we don't believe the Bible (Gen 1:26).

    Isaiah quoted God saying: "before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me." (Isaiah 43:10) But what about DURING Gods existence? Certainly no God was formed before Him, because He is Eternal and thus no creation has pre-dated Him. Certainly no God can be created after Him because He is Eternal and thus nothing will post-date Him. Thus ALL creation is formed contemporary with God.

    Furthermore, who was it that said: "before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me"? The clue is in the next verse, for He continued saying: "I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no saviour." Who said it? JESUS OF NAZARETH, the SAVIOUR.

    Now if we account the formation of the infant body in the womb of the Virgin Mother of our LORD as the formation of this Being who spoke to Isaiah, then we have committed a serious error. For Indeed the Saviour Jesus is the Great Jehovah which spoke to Isaiah and whose hand created this earth and placed our first parents thereon. He is Eternal and before Him there was no God formed, neither shall there be after Him.

    And yet, He was born of the Virgin. Just as he said: "I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world." (John 6:51)

    LDS theology poses no opposition to this notion. This IS LDS theology.

    -a-train

    When a group a mad Samoans comes towards you it's a good idea to leave...

    in Preserving Marriage between a man and a woman

    Posted

    to a-train - See, the best thing about the ballot is that you get to put anything you want up for a vote so long as you get enough signatures. Apparently, the religious coalition thought that it was more pressing to place an initiative on the ballot regarding gay marriage than to place an initiative on the ballot to bring troops home from Iraq, or seeking military action in Darfur.

    Did the LDS Church create the Prop 8 ballot issue? Did LDS leadership present the notion for a ballot measure? Perhaps the Church could devote countless hours and money in bringing new measures and pushing votes, would that make you feel better? Did you start up a petition for military action in Darfur?

    Additionally, there was a vote for animal rights on the ballot this year, and the church didn't do anything to take a moral stand for animal rights. Why?

    Perhaps the measure wasnt enough, perhaps it contained language that wasn't appropriate for such a bill, perhaps they felt the measure would easliy pass, perhaps they don't feel it is a moral issue. Who knows? The Church is not obligated to take a stand on every issue and in fact only makes statements on particular issues.

    The Church DID make a statement on gambling ballot issues in Missouri back in 1993. It DID make a statement on a homosexual marriage ammendment to the Missouri Constitution in 2004. The Church DOES ask the members to study and vote at every election and typically sends out a letter to that effect to the wards at each election time.

    But the church also encouraged all of its members to support the President in his foreign policy decisions concerning Iraq, at the same time that most other religious organizations were decrying such action.

    Can you show references for direct support from LDS leadership of the invasion and/or occupation of Iraq?

    I understand that the church opposes murder and genocide, but why hasn't the church read letters in Sacrament asking us to contribute money and resources to stop murder and genocide that is currently occurring? Political will is not simply responsive (it does not simply arise when the ballot gets sent around). Political will must be made, and the church had the ability to make political will in opposition to the war, but it chose not to. Instead, it chose to pursue the issue of gay marriage. Why, why and why again?

    It depends on the issue at hand. Elder Russell M. Nelson said:

    During the Second World War, when members of the Church were forced to fight on opposing sides, the First Presidency affirmed that “the state is responsible for the civil control of its citizens or subjects, for their political welfare, and for the carrying forward of political policies, domestic and foreign. … But the Church itself, as such, has no responsibility for these policies, [other] than urging its members fully to render … loyalty to their country."

    You must understand the situation of the LDS Church and its members. A strong stance on a war could endanger the lives of LDS members in various parts of the world. While the membership is strongly encouraged to renounce war, the leadership is very careful and thoughtful about the ramifications of statements of international politics.

    Perhaps this all comes as a sudden surprise to you, but the LDS Church has been promoting support or opposition to various measures all along, but is careful to measure all the ramifications before making statements.

    -a-train

    When a group a mad Samoans comes towards you it's a good idea to leave...

    in Preserving Marriage between a man and a woman

    Posted

    There is no record, however, of the church opposing the war in Iraq, or the Bush doctrine (also known as the doctrine of preemptive strike). There is no record of the church condemning the use of torture in the war on terror, or extraordinary rendition. There is no record of the church taking a moral stand against the genocide in Darfur. There are no letters read in every sacrament meeting encouraging mormons to fight for animal rights, nor are there any church leaders asking members to donate time and money to defeat the drug culture.

    Let me know when there is a vote on these things and I'll check to see if LDS leadership makes any statement to the membership about supporting or rejecting the measure.

    Regardless, the Church has long spoke out against murder, genocide, and all immorality.

    -a-train

    What will the LDS Church do with this...

    in Preserving Marriage between a man and a woman

    Posted · Edited by a-train

    Actually the LDS argument was the the Morrill Anti-Bigamy law was in violation of the constitutional right to practice religion, specifically the practice of plural marriage. So yes, they were claiming a constitutional right to a legal marriage contract, along with legal and tax benefits.

    Sources please.

    The LDS people were not looking for state or federally recognized licenses or contracts and the income tax advantages did not exist at that time for anyone. They were not looking for insurance benefits either.

    In fact, the Utah Territorial Legislature passed a bill in 1852 protecting the inheritance rights of 'illegitimate children'. This was the reason for some of the wording of the Edmunds-Tucker Act.

    The Morrill Anti-Bigamy Act banned LDS practices including "spiritual marriage." Thus, even those temple ceremonies that did not result in plural cohabitation, children, or shared property were banned. Read the text here.

    The Edmunds Tucker Act of 1887 did not remove the availability of a marriage license from LDS persons, but REQUIRED IT. Required it a-train? Yes, the LDS people were not seeking civil marriage contracts, and they weren't required to have them until this act. Thus LDS people were engaging in their "plural marriages" without having them legally considered through state issued marriage licenses and/or contracts (which made it difficult to prosecute and convict polygamy charges).

    The Edmunds Tucker Act also took U.S. Citizenship away from polygamously married people, as well as voting rights and the ability to run for office or perform jury duty. It also outlawed the inheritance of children deemed 'illegitimate' born after 01 JAN 1883, disenfranchized ALL women in Utah, required women to testify against their husbands, and replaced local judges with federally appointed judges.

    Perhaps there are certain Mormons who wish to make cohabitation and shared property of homosexual couples illegal, but we have not had any such statements from LDS leadership.

    -a-train