paulsifer42
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Posts posted by paulsifer42
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Would you expect a member of the church who happened to be a plumber to fix the church plumbing for free?
The church already hires a maintenance company too take care of all buildings, but if a bishop felt it needful to call someone to be a plumber (for whatever reason) then, yes.
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I understand that God is not going to punish or look down upon someone who is not skilled. Unfortunately, the result and effect on the congregation is often undesirable if the musician is not skilled. I have heard many people complain about the music in church. I have also has members approach me in tears expressing how moved they were by my playing. I am not saying this to brag. I am saying that there is a benefit to having a professional musician in church. The unskilled musician is likely to be far less moving than the skilled one.
People who complain about the music sound a little shallow to me. Just because someone's worship doesn't sound as playing as another's doesn't mean they shouldn't be asked to share it. The more we discuss this the more I'm convinced we shouldn't pay the organist.
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All I have done is ask a question....I have every right to ask that...it's a question I would ask to anyone who had or has questions like the ones poster is asking
The way it was worded lead me to read it as accusatory. No offense intended. Just don't want him to get the impression he's done something wrong.
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You never felt the influence of the Holy Ghost and never gained a testimony of the Book of Mormon ?
There are lots of reasons for joining the church, please don't shame him for joining for a different reason than you think people should (assuming this was your intent, of course).
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You never felt the influence of the Holy Ghost and never gained a testimony of the Book of Mormon ?
There are lots of reasons for joining the church, please don't shame him for joining for a distant reason than you think people should (assuming this was your intent, of course).
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Something that needs to be remembered too is that one reason for calling is to develop talents. In my last wars they called someone to be the organist who didn't even know how to play the piano. Were some songs a little rough? Sure, but by the end of it she did great. I kind of play the guitar, I wish I'd get called to play the hymns on that because embarrassment is a great motivator.
Valid are about worship and growth, not money. Maybe, as you said, God has called you to help you grow a better attitude.
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Do you mean procreation within temple marriage or does this include crack babies?
This seems a little more flippant than you probably meant it to.
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ActiveLDS, I feel for you. I don't really have advice for you, and I don't really know if leaving is 'justified', but I feel for you. I do think talking with her about it is a good idea. And, as has been stated, more than just 'I need it', it should be a discussion of, 'I love you. I want to be with you. Let's talk about how we can do that together.' But, for all I know, you've had that discussion, but to no avail. Here's praying things work out for you.
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I'm not sure if this is already being discussed, but it's something that's been on my mind for a while and then I read the article linked and it made me think even more about it.
I have a three year old who already knows how to handle a tablet. I'm worried, currently, about how her using the tablet will affect her, as there are studies that show lowered attention span, hurting social skills, etc. But, I also know touch screens are the future. My kids will use them in school and work, and I don't want my kids' learning to be hindered because they spend all their time using the new-fangeled technology that is totally foreign to them, making them focus on learning how to use it, as opposed to using the software on the device.
Of course, I also think about the future (when I'm feeling brave). What will my kids encounter on the internet much younger than I did? How will that affect them?
So, where's the balance? Those of you with kids, how do you do it now? Those of you in my situation, or who have no children, any good theories? As the article points out, we really can't 'know' what to do, as we're pioneering this, but I've always thought kicking around a hypothetical helped in real world situations.
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I saw a lot of good in it and its members.
Perfect. So, if I can make some assumptions, you saw that the church teachings, when followed, make for good people, and you wanted to be good people. :)
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Thank you. You are right. Part of me still wonders if it is just more years of confirmation bias, though. I think I am having a faith crisis.
That can be legitimate. Why did you join the church in the first place?
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I wish I felt like I can trust my own revelations but I am worried it is confirmation bias.
This takes time and experience. Don't be so hard on yourself. Whenever I look up to people who are more sure/better than me at something (my dad is a great example) I try to remember that I'm heading in the right direction, they've just been on that path a lot longer than I have. I need to afford myself the same time they've been afforded.
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I've found that when I question and sincerely look for answers, keeping in mind what and why I believe what I already do, I often find my faith stronger than before I questioned. So, I think we should always question, while keeping in mind the answers we've already received. I highly recommend keeping a journal for this reason, documenting what you believe and why, so when questions come, you have as clear a picture as you can get of what you already believe and why. I keep bringing up 'why' because I think the why is just as important to remember as the 'what'.
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Well, they're just not really satisfying my question but I guess it's one of those "We can never truly know" questions. I am questioning why God it made it the way it is. Only he knows this. I guess a part of me is questioning whether or not this is truly from God and not from man but I will try to ignore that.
Another something to think about is temple work. The priests and nuns you wrote of are probably good people who, if they knew what God wanted them to do, would do it. These are the kind who will accept the Gospel in the Spirit World and, when Christ comes, will be sealed to a spouse. I think it's pretty much doctrine that there is a Heavenly Mother, so it would seem we work in partnerships in the Celestial Kingdom, so, it is requisite that we find a partner to obtain exhalation. In this scenario, the priests and nuns won't receive anything less, so long as their devotion is to God and His plan. This is my thinking when I think of family members or friends who won't join the church. I can't possibly know if they've received a revelation that the LDS church holds the true gospel, so, in my mind, 'it's not over 'til it's over.' Those who are righteous, with pure hearts, who honestly seek to believe in and follow Christ will be exalted.
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Why can't he? He's God. I thought he can do anything.
Alma answers this for you:
Alma 42:13
Therefore, according to justice, the plan of redemption could not be brought about, only on conditions of repentance of men in this probationary state, yea, this preparatory state; for except it were for these conditions, mercy could not take effect except it should destroy the work of justice. Now the work of justice could not be destroyed; if so, God would cease to be God.
He can't do 'anything' and remain 'God'. He has rules and laws just like we do.
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If someone is committing adultery, we have no need to say well they aren't in my stewardship and I do not have adequate knowledge to decide so I best not judge, no we say it is a sin!
Simple question, is divorce ordained of God? If it is than we can say there is no sin, if it is not they we may conclude that sin drives it. If we say God allows it, then we can still conclude that there is sin involved.
The Scriptures are again pretty clear on this subject:
Matthew 5:31-32 & Mark 10:2-12
31 It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:
32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.
2 ¶And the Pharisees came to him, and asked him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife? tempting him.
3 And he answered and said unto them, What did Moses command you?
4 And they said, Moses suffered to write a bill of divorcement, and to put her away.
5 And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept.
6 But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.
7 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife;
8 And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh.
9 What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
10 And in the house his disciples asked him again of the same matter.
11 And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her.
12 And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery.
Kick against the pricks on the scriptures, but they plainly teach, divorce is not ordained of God and those in those causes where divorce is justified, serious sin has been committed. In cases where divorce is not justified, serious sin is committed in breaking the marriage covenant.
This is what Dallin H. Oaks said about it:
The kind of marriage required for exaltation—eternal in duration and godlike in quality—does not contemplate divorce. In the temples of the Lord, couples are married for all eternity. But some marriages do not progress toward that ideal. Because “of the hardness of [our] hearts,” the Lord does not currently enforce the consequences of the celestial standard. He permits divorced persons to marry again without the stain of immorality specified in the higher law. Unless a divorced member has committed serious transgressions, he or she can become eligible for a temple recommend under the same worthiness standards that apply to other members.
God does not hold us to a higher law than we can live, and, apparently, that is where we are at this point. It is not my place to say if someone is breaking God's law, because (as I've said before) I don't know what law God is holding them to. Obviously, as Oak's talk states, we aren't held to that higher law at this point, therefore, no serious sin has been committed (as you state), or else people would be called to repentance by their bishops after a divorce.
In all cases, I do not have all the information, and as I am not a steward over them, I have no means (or need) for gathering such information. Do I think God loves for people to marry and then decide that their marriage is no longer working? No, but I also don't think it's my place to say whether those people have sinned or not.
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Romans 3:23
"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;"
If two people are living as Christ would live then they would not possibly divorce each other. Not living as God would have us live is sin (i.e. disobeying God).
Some truths about maintaining a marriage are truths regardless of what religion one believes in. Calling something a sin is vastly different than saying because one did x they are banished to hell forever. This idea that one cannot call something a sin because well we might be judging someone is ridiculous.
Please see https://www.lds.org/ensign/1999/08/judge-not-and-judging?lang=eng
The Light of Christ (i.e. our conscience) guides us in the big things. Do I sin in ways that I know not, absolutely. I rely on the Atonement of Jesus Christ to make up for me in those instances when I sin and I know it not at the time. It doesn't make it any less of a sin, b/c sin is disobedience to God.
So without the Atonement calling something a sin when someone may not know it might appear to be judgmental, holier than thou, etc. But it isn't, it is a statement of fact. Does God want divorce? The simple answer is no. Does He allow divorce in certain situations? Yes, however those situations are where serious sin has been committed. Even where divorce occurs and there hasn't been serious sin, it is involved. Saying that sin is the root of divorce, is simply recognizing that when it occurs a couple as not lived as God would have them live.
Regardless, though the Atonement of Jesus Christ those sins can be wiped away; the physical effects of the sin will linger but one can become clean.
From your own article:
Third, to be righteous, an intermediate judgment must be within our stewardship. We should not presume to exercise and act upon judgments that are outside our personal responsibilities. Some time ago I attended an adult Sunday School class in a small town in Utah. The subject was the sacrament, and the class was being taught by the bishop. During class discussion a member asked, “What if you see an unworthy person partaking of the sacrament? What do you do?” The bishop answered, “You do nothing. I may need to do something.” That wise answer illustrates my point about stewardship in judging.
Fourth, we should, if possible, refrain from judging until we have adequate knowledge of the facts. In an essay titled “Sitting in the Seat of Judgment,” the great essayist William George Jordan reminded us that character cannot be judged as dress goods—by viewing a sample yard to represent a whole bolt of cloth (see The Crown of Individuality [1909], 101–5).
In the case of these hypothetical people, neither are in my stewardship and I do not have adequate knowledge. I have no idea if some kind of sin lead to their divorce.
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How quickly people on here decide someone has sinned is, interesting...
Chalking it up to "The Light of Christ" as a way to judge someone else when they do something we don't believe is right is also interesting. All I'm saying is, I've never been on the inside of ANY divorce, let alone all of them, so I refuse to be so quick to decide that someone (if not both people) has sinned inside of all divorces. Obviously, you can believe what you will, but I believe in the scripture: For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
I do my best to assume that everyone is on the up-and-up and God will judge by the heart; I'd sure hate to get to the judgement bar and be told I didn't measure up because I didn't quiet listen to The Light of Christ, or didn't happen to notice an Old Testament passage that told me it was a bad idea to do X.
Again though, and I mean this honestly, believe what you will.
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Yes, there are sins here. Choosing to marry without agreeing to respect one another. Inability to discuss differences. Possibly even getting married without full awareness of the difficulty of different faiths.
We are taught we aren't judged for what we don't know is wrong (ie. it's not a sin unless we know it's wrong), therefore, them not knowing the the difficulty arising from different faiths would not be a sin.
Also, it may not be a lack of respect. I respect many people with different beliefs, but I don't think a marriage with them would work out very well. Also, beliefs change, degrees of spirituality change. I'm saying they could both have changed, but in different directions. None of this is sin.
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I appreciate your speculation.
I think work was performed as spirits also and likely not necessary for eternal glory. Didn't Micheal help work in building the world while he was a spirit?
I find it interesting to ponder that when we receive the resurrected body is the time we receive our inheritance, our glory. Could those two things be tied together. It is described in the scriptures as the assignment to a Kingdom associated with certain types of body, one for the Celestial, one for the Terrestrial and many different types for the Telestial as one star differs from another.
This is a crued metaphor but think of a computer that comes preloaded with software. When we are born into this world the body knows how to cry, it knows how to suckle, how to breath, how to reflexively make certain movements. These come without thinking or really even knowing what we are doing. We call these things intinctual in nature. The prophets have told us that we are dual natured. David O. McKary, Paul, Elder Bednar to name a few have spent a lot of time talking about these two natures. There is one nature and there is another. They are not the same. One has a nature the other doesn't. Again, we don't spend a lot of time talking about this in church or elsewhere as it hasn't yet been revealed.
One thing to ponder. If the pre-loaded "software" or hardware of the Celestial body contained all that was done before, as in all the works of the previous Celestial beings before, then the person receiving that body would automatically become "one" with all those of similar make up and automatically become part of that existence that never had a beginning, becoming eternally always a God as that pre-loaded "software" and hardware is now self. Maybe this is the value of receiving a body, a way to pass on an inheritance of the "fullness" of particular works correlating to that Kingdom. I don't know but it seems to be of essential value to glory and not just potential as in potential works.
We should start another thread discussing the importance of the body. I choose you do it.
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Where else would divorce come from? Give me any reason for divorce and I bet I could find a sin somewhere in the line.
One partner belongs to one faith while the other belongs to another. Both are very active in their respective faiths and eventually differ significantly on what they see as very fundemantal principles to the point that they don't feel they can be married any more.
For one example.
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Here is one speculation of mine; empathy. Charity, the pure love of Christ requires feeling for others and their situation. I think the body may be a source for empathy. Higher species of animals exhibit empathy and this is what makes an animal a social being or not. We know that a Kingdom is a society, the highest of which needs to have sociality. God can know our thoughts, He knows how we feel, He enjoys our successes as if He is there with us. All of this is a necessary trait to be like God. Christ exhibited an extreem empathy, to know the thoughts and purpose of anothers actions and drives, good or evil. To love one's neghbor as one self is 100% empathy. Partial empathy is the limitation of a Terrestrial body or even a Telestial body that is so distant in its understanding of another that it varies as one star varies from another. When everyone fully understand the thoughts, feelings and joys of another they are one, like the sun is one. It may take a body to do that. But again this has not yet been revealed.
I've speculated that it has something to do with work, ie. the ground being cursed 'for our sake'. Something about learning the natural order of things, working to make something happen physically, etc. (total tangent)
As to the point of the discussion: I can really only echo what's been said. There is a difference between noticing and lusting. One is a reaction, the other is a choice to dwell.
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Divorce comes about from sin.
Is this really an assumption we're going with in this discussion: All divorce comes from sin?
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I'd probably wear them (as it seems like an activity where they could be worn without too much trouble) and hope the paint came out. Like others have said though, it's ultimately a personal decision. I doubt God would punish you for doing what you felt was right.
unpaid musicians
in General Discussion
Posted · Edited by paulsifer42
Hey, I found actual direction on this from the first presidency.
"Music in church meetings should not draw attention to to itself or be a demonstration. This music is for worship, not performance." Handbook II administering the church 2010
So, you're occupation is performing on the organ, but you're not performing in sacrament meeting, you're worshipping. Paying you for it would be like paying me every time I pour my heart out to God during the sacrament. We all come to sacrament meeting to worship together; some happen to have particular talents that can be utilized to make that worship more enjoyable.
Not sure if that is a sufficient answer for you, but it is for me. Not even a question I had before, not I'm glad I found an answer.