Elphaba

According to the Wiki article, the one child that I believe has the most credibility, Josephine Lyon, hasn't been tested. (I actually thought she had been and found negative.)However, even if all of the alleged children turned out to be not Joseph's, it wouldn't prove anything with regard to whether he was intimate with his any of his wives or not. There could be children no one spoke of, and we'd never know. Frankly, I don't understand this need to make Joseph's relations with all of his wives, excluding Emma, asexual. If it's to prove to an unknowledgable public that he didn't start polygamy because of his urges, it doesn't prove that. His polygamous world was complicated, and certainly included dynastic issues beyond sex, but that doesn't exclude sex. Additionally, around 900 people in Nauvoo were involved in polygamy, and it's beyond impossible to presume none of these were intimate. Why would Joseph refrain? Given some of his wives acknowledged they'd had relations with Joseph, unlike you, I believe them. I don't consider these women liars. But then, I don't think his having had sex with them damns him in any way, not if you actually study his practice in its entirety. Elphaba

Okay, I can see that, as those were accusations against Joseph. So, thanks for that. Elphaba

If I understand her correctly, Wingnut is talking about stewardship, and the fact that God would not inspire anyone who doesn't have it as to how to counsel someone.I actually had an experience with this in the '70s. I grew up in California, and at the age of 17, ended up living on my own in Boston. I LOVED it. Two years later I went to BYU (many people here will be SHOCKED at that!) and HATED it! (They won't be shocked at that! lol) I made plans to return to Boston, but my mother was dead-set against it. She had me go to the local patriarch, who literally told me God had inspired him to tell me to give up any thought going to law school (that was my dream at the time), stay in Utah, and get married. I moved back to Boston. When I told my branch president what had happened, he was livid. I was not a member of the patriarch's stake, and thus, he had no stewardship over me. As such, God would never have inspired him to counsel me at all, much less to say what he did. The patriarch either believed he had received inspiration he had not and should have known he could not, or he had lied to me. Either way, he was completely out of line. If that's not what Wing is talking about, she can clarify. Elphaba

Hmmmm. . . I'm thinking. . . . Elph

Were you allowed to be there?If it's against the rules, I won't have a problem with that. Well, that might not be entirely honest. I am much closer to my mother than anyone else in the family, and I admit, it's insulting that I, the only one who takes care of her today, would not be allowed to do so after her death. However, I completely understand the reasons I would not be allowed to participate, and know that it would be more important to my mother that these rules be followed than that they allow an exception on my part, and her wishes are the most important thing to me. When it actually happens, I admit, I may feel a bit slighted, but I will get over it. :) Elphaba

Are you calling me a word snob? Elph

Again, seriously? It's far more scary that you think only people who agree with you, or those you approve of, should be allowed to vote. Elphaba

I about fell out of my chair when I read that. You seriously don't realize you, and many others here, do the same?There's nothing wrong with wanting to know about the integrity of a company, and not wanting to do business with one he feels lacks it. While HG's method might not be cost-effective, there is nothing wrong with his intent. Elphaba

Why is it your nickname. Somehow, I don't see you as being neutral about very many things. :)Elph

Significant of what? I've never heard anyone accuse Joseph of being abusive, and I've never seen any evidence that would indicate he was. He was generally a very kind man, and never abusive to Emma or his children. So, why is it significant his other wives never accused him of being abusive when no one's ever said he was? What am I missing? (Some would argue Joseph was abusive to Emma in that he didn't tell her about his other wives until some time had passed, and I can understand that; however, I think he was just plain scared, and that had more to do with it than abusively wanting to deceive her. I also think he didn't want to hurt her, as he loved her dearly.) Ephaba

This is simply not true. Polygamy does not produce any more children than monogamy. The idea that polygamy was practiced to bolster the population is a myth.Elphaba

Emma was never reconciled to polygamy. She tried very hard, but couldn't do it. When Joseph was murdered, their marriage was tense because of it.Additionally, she lied to her children, and everyone else, about it her entire life after her husband's murder, insisting Joseph had never practiced it. Elphaba

Women who were abused as children often have a difficult time making eye contact. I have worked very hard in my life to learn how to be honest, direct and assertive, and at 55, I'm comfortable with it today. But it took me years, and making eye contact is part of it. I still have problems with it sometimes, especially if I'm in a conflict with someone. Everyone gets anxious during a conflict, but if I'm not careful, I get very fearful, even if I'm not in any danger. When I feel like that, I have a very difficult time keeping eye contact, and often can't do it. Elphaba

This is a fascinating take on how we all perceive time, comparing people, cities, countries, and so on, and how that affects our quality of life. I was able to see where I fit into the concepts of time that the narrator identifies, and it was an eye-opener. (Not necessarily a good one, though!) You might relate to it as well, as it discusses how a religious perspective of time affects people's quality of life. LiveLeak.com - How Perception of Time Relates to Decision-Making Elphaba

This is not going to be everyone's cup of tea, but I found it very poignant. It combines animation with modern dance with lyrical music with YouTube. I really enjoyed the comments to this video, to see how differently people interpreted it. Elphaba

Well, it doesn't "happen" at 15, in that people aren't born straight and then suddenly turn gay at 15. Most people are born with their sexual orientation.But it is very common for a person to become aware of the fact that s/he is gay by the age of 15, the same way it's common for people who are straight to have recognized it by then. If he says he's gay, I'd believe him and not spend a lot of time wondering if he's wrong. Elphaba

Richard Holbrooke has died. This is an opinion piece in The New York Times about him. Richard Holbrooke, RIP - NYTimes.com Elphaba

I needed something to take my mind off things, and I discovered card making. It's really an amazing industry, with a lot of true artists who also participate in the craft. I'm a total amateur, but every once in a while I make a card I absolutely love. So, I told my mother I'd make Christmas cards with a religious theme for her to send to her friends, but I'm really struggling with it. While the commercial market for them is very good, they don't always translate easily into a handmade card, at least not for me. I use rubber and acrylic stamps for the images, and have a very pretty one of an angel with a horn. I thought it would work really well with the words "Hark, the Herald Angels sing," but so far, it's just not working. If anyone has any ideas, I'd love to hear them. I'm afraid Christmas is going to be over before I get it right! Elphaba

I thought this was hilarious. Elphaba

Thank you Iggy!Actually, I had completely misread the intent of this thread. I HATE when I do that. I thought Ram was referring to people who left the Church, not just those who went inactive, so my post was irrelevant. Still, I appreciate your perspective. I always enjoy your posts. I am sooooo happy that you are in Oregon! Not only because you'll have a bed waiting for me (grin), but because it's not just the weather that will be refreshing. It sounds like a great ward, and I know how much that means to you. New starts can be so fun! Elph

Those who know me here know I'm rarely at a loss for words (stop laughing!), but I admit, I am right now. I'm genuinely moved by the kindness shown to me in this thread. Also . . . right back atchya! Elph

Hey Maureen,If you wrote this in response to my concerns, I need to clarify. I'm not worried at all about not being allowed to attend the funeral. I'm worried about not being allowed to help dress my mother in her temple clothes. If my mom tells me she doesn't want me to, it would be due to LDS sensibilities and I would honor that. But if she doesn't mind, I'd really like to help with it. If you weren't referring to me, then just ignore this. :) Elph

Thanks for the clarification. I had assumed, because you were piqued by the incident (is that an accurate description?), that she was using "myth" in its more literal context. Given she was using it in a literary context, I don't see that she did anything wrong. It sounds like she tried a novel approach where a more straightforward one would have been more appropriate, and successful. But I had previously seen an atheist agenda on her part, whereas now I don't. ETA: I wanted to clarify my post. I don't see the type of goading your teacher used as appropriate, so I'm not saying she did nothing wrong. I want to give her the benefit of the doubt and assume the attempt was genuinely to catch the students' interest, but I can still see why it was concerning to the Christians in the room. I just don't see it as the huge fault I had previously. Elph

What, exactly, does he want help with? Does he want to change his sexual orientation? (ETA: I'm not saying this can be done. I'm just wondering if he thinks it can and wants help with it.) Does he want to know ways to stay celibate if he becomes a member? Something else?Elphaba

I can't. It's illegal to teach public high school students that the Bible is true, and for good reason. It's just common sense that teaching it is false, while perhaps not illegal, is just as inappropriate.What is legal is to teach about the Bible as literature, and I really don't understand the opposition to that, as its truthfulness or falseness doesn't hinge on its literary value. But when discussing the Bible, that's the only approach the public school teacher should take. One exception might be if the subject were creation myths in general, because the story of Adam and Eve does have parallels with other creation stories, and obviously, we think other's stories are, indeed, myths. The teacher's approach to that would be a little more difficult, and given most of the students would be Christian, I would hope s/he would be sensitive to that. But I see no purpose to your teacher calling it a "myth," other than her personal desire to plant a seed. One of the reasons it's inappropriate to teach the Bible is true is because not all students are Christian. It only makes sense that the same should hold true for teaching the Bible is false--Christian students shouldn't be subjected to that in a public school. Elphaba