Third Hour Forum Rules - Please be familiar with these rules before posting

Rob Osborn

Banned
 View Profile  See their activity

  • Posts

    3852

  • Joined

  • Last visited

 Content Type 

Posts posted by Rob Osborn

  1. TK Smoothies

    in LDS Gospel Discussion

    Posted

    10 minutes ago, mikbone said:

    Im sure not being a dirtbag is a prerequisite to entrance to the CK.

    So by your logic, I can substitute (not being a dirtbag) in your paragraph above in place of eternal marriage and it should still hold water.

     

    Getting a temple marriage is not a rubber stamp guaranteeing exaltation and eternal life. 

    D&C 132:6-7 is legalese behind the temple ordinance.

    https://www.lds.org/ensign/1976/07/accepted-of-the-lord-the-doctrine-of-making-your-calling-and-election-sure?lang=eng

    The above link is the rubber stamp you are looking for.

    No, it's not a rubber stamp. That's not what I am saying. What I am saying is that eternal marriage is an ordinance performed in our kingdom now that enables one, through obedience to God's laws, to advance and be able to receive greater blessings of exaltation.

  5. TK Smoothies

    in LDS Gospel Discussion

    Posted

    5 minutes ago, mikbone said:

    What is your logic there.  

    And I don’t think of myself as married.  I’m sealed to my wife, and children.

    You can get married on the love boat or in a drive thru Elvis chapel in Vegas.

    We can be eternally married now even though we aren't in the Celestial kingdom yet. Eternal marriage is thus prerequsite to entering the highest glory of the Celestial kingdom. Not only that but eternal marriage is allowed now. And we aren't in the Celestial kingdom are we? We are in a lower kingdom right now aren't we? God thus not only recognizes marriage, or "sealings" in lower orders of kingdoms but also provides means for it to happen.

  7. TK Smoothies

    in LDS Gospel Discussion

    Posted

    3 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

    I see no conflict between what he stated and the Proclamation.

    What I DO see is people going by their modern understanding of what sex and gender are rather than what they were understood to be in his time (or more specifically, how he learned it in his youth which looks to have bearing on how he presents it in his writings...rather than what was beginning to be it's common usage at the time his writings came out).  Because of this confusion I think they feel he is stating something that he is NOT stating.

    It is the same as demonstrating that children do not procreate.  In this, they are no men and women among them, rather they do (or should not be in their innocence) practicing.  This does NOT preclude them from being boys and girls.

    In the Lower Kingdoms, the will still have those who are Men and Woman as this is eternal, but sex will be impossible, it will not exist.  There will be none in that degree, the power and ability to procreate will not be theirs.

    In a nutshell, this is basically what Fielding Smith is stating.  He made this clear in other teachings and if you were familiar with what he wrote on this matter elsewhere, you would realize he is NOT stating that they cease to have the appearances of boys and girls, but that the functions of procreation that are held by Men and Woman and some identify as defining what a Man and a Woman are will cease to be and not be possessed by those in the Telestial or Terrestrial (or even in the lower two degrees of the Celestial).

    I don't see how this is contrary to the Proclamation in any way.

    I don't think he missed the it. 

    I understand WHY you may have problems with the way Joseph Fielding Smith interprets the scriptures.

    From what I understand, you feel that this is the Telestial Kingdom and that the Terrestrial Kingdom is what will exist when the Millenium comes.

    Joseph Fielding Smith taught something very different and it is important to be able to understand what he believed in order to understand his teaching on this.

    From his teachings it seems apparent that Joseph Fielding Smith felt that this was a Telestial World and that as we progressed we could live Terrestrial Lives even while we exist in this world.  This meant that as we received the covenants in the gospel that we would change from being fallen Telestial beings, into the Saints who lived in a way similar to those who were in the Millenium.  Thus, our lives could be in a way, a more Terrestrial light and our homes a more Terrestrial (or higher ) place of learning and growth. 

    This Terrestrial way of living would be the same idea as that of the Millennium.  In the Millennium, he was of the opinion that our life would be very much like it is in the Telestial world today...however it would be due to our Righteousness that the adversary would be bound and a more universal following of the Lord's commandments that would bring around a Terrestrial world.  In otherwords, it was the manner that people would live and how righteous they would be that would make the Millennium more of a Terrestrial world rather than some vast transformation of the Earth itself at that point.  This is something that some may agree with in the church while others disagree, but it seems that he was of the opinion that this would bring about a Terrestrial type of society.

    In this way, we could also have a more Terrestrial type of home  (or even higher) in THIS life to bring up our children, rather than one that followed the dictates of a fallen world or a fallen Telestial world.

    However, this did NOT mean, in his understanding that the world was the Telestial Kingdom or that our homes would be the Terrestrial Kingdom.  It meant that we progressed in this life from understanding to understanding and our lives took on a higher manifestation of these things. 

    He still felt that the Telestial and Terrestrial Kingdoms were DIFFERENT than the Telestial world we live on (though it may have been a Telestial glory before the Fall...I do not know) and the Terrestrial way of life of the Millennium and the Millennial reign.

    He felt instead that after death there would be the Spirit World and after the Spirit World a judgement.  At this Judgement men would be given a glory depending on what they did and thought in mortality (and to a degree, the spirit world).  This would result in them having an ETERNAL reward in one of the three degrees of glory.  It is in this understanding that he differentiates from your understanding, if I understand your ideas correctly.

    Thus, those who went to the Telestial Kingdom would live immortal lives in perfect Telestial Bodies.  They would be as Adam and Eve were in the Garden of Eden if they had partaken of the Tree of Life prior to partaking of the Tree of Good and Evil.  Thus, they will not procreate.  They will still be identifiable as Men and Women, but without the necessary qualifications to enact such roles in sexuality or marriage in order to procreate.  In this physical essence they will be devoid.

    This also applies to those who go to a much greater glory in the Terrestrial Kingdom.  They will also not be able to have any posterity for the rest of eternity.  They are, as inable to have children as your Barbie dolls as the Topic refers to.  They will still be what they were, so that if you were Ken you would still be that individual, and if you were Barbie you would still be that individual.  However, the ability to have children, to participate in such holy matters, and to have an increase of that and thus your own glory will be ended.  You will have a Terrestrial glory and dwell in a Terrestrial Sphere on a Terrestrial World for eternity.  That is the end of your reward.

    Only those who went to the Celestial Kingdom, and of those, only those who received Exaltation would receive bodies capable of participating in the highest of the gifts of marriage, that of the ability to have progeny.  Children are a blessing ONLY to those who enter into the Highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom. 

    It is this understanding that he had that he is referring to.

    Thus, the discrepancy.

    I think your ideas are that people progress in this world.  WE start with a Telestial Kingdom where we dwell now.  In the millennium will come the Terrestrial Kingdom.  Obviously we all can have children in both of these.  At the end there will only be two places one can go, either Outer Darkness or the Celestial Kingdom (which is composed of three degrees). 

    In this understanding, obviously one would find it obvious that there can still be procreation between those with Telestial and Terrestrial bodies.

    However, this is not the approach or teaching the Fielding Smith was talking about.  He would agree that those in this world and in the Millennium obviously can procreate mortal progeny.  His discussion was in regards to what comes AFTER this life, and as his understanding and teachings differ from yours, thus his statements do not go parallel with what you would agree with...

    If I"ve understood your ideas on the Telestial, Terrestrial, and Celestial correctly.

    There is an interesting view going on here. Is this world "a" telestial world, or is it "the" telestial world? And, as such, why do we think it is different that "a" versus "the" would have different laws? My understanding is the same as the temple that we are in "the" telestial world/ kingdom. Bruce R. McConkie taught that telestial law was a carnal law. Not sure how a carnal law sanctifies. He got that wrong. In the endowment we are taught that telestial law consists of the lower portions of the Celestial law which included covenants pertaining to sexual relations with ones spouse. Telestial law regarding spouses states that sexual relations are only to be had between one spouse where they are legally and lawfully married. God not only recognizes marriage in the telestial kingdom but also recognizes and allows for sexual relations between lawfully wedded spouses in the telestial kingdom.

    People will say though that this telestial kingdom is not the same telestial kingdom after resurrection and judgment and as such has different laws, abilities, etc. I say, wow, that's strange. That's like saying even though we live in the telestial kingdom we aren't governed by laws of a telestial kingdom. That's an oxymoron.

    If one carefully reads the Proclamation they will come across this paragraph-

    "In the premortal realm, spirit sons and daughters knew and worshipped God as their Eternal Father and accepted His plan by which His children could obtain a physical body and gain earthly experience to progress toward perfection and ultimately realize their divine destiny as heirs of eternal life. The divine plan of happiness enables family relationships to be perpetuated beyond the grave. Sacred ordinances and covenants available in holy temples make it possible for individuals to return to the presence of God and for families to be united eternally."

    The family relationship, which includes sexual relationships within legally recognized marriages, are perpeptuated beyond the grave. It's part of what identifies us and within the bonds of marriage sexual relations are a holy thing that has sanctifying powers. We tend to think of sex as a dirty or carnal practice. Or, on the other hand think it can only be utilized by God's themselves as some rite of passage. God sees it differently. He not only recognizes sex as the uniting purpose in man, he commands that man and woman should be joined together in order to fill the measure of their creation. Not only that, he gives this procreative power to man in the lowest portion of the law in the telestial kingdom. It's a recognized practice and law in the telestial kingdom.

     

  8. TK Smoothies

    in LDS Gospel Discussion

    Posted

    Just now, wenglund said:

    You obviously didn't comprehend the distinction I made, and so your response is meaningless.

    Have a good day.

    Thanks, -Wade Englund-

    I did notice. Perhaps you don't understand the meaning of "essential" and how it relates to "purpose" and thus functionality and anatomy together.

  9. TK Smoothies

    in LDS Gospel Discussion

    Posted

    13 minutes ago, wenglund said:

    Isn't the supposed "error" dependent upon assuming that JFS was speaking anatomically about males and females rather than functionally?  If he was speaking functionally, which I believe he was, then he isn't at odds with the Proclamation, since it is speaking anatomically, and thus he isn't in error. Right?

    Thanks, -Wade Englund-

     

    He was in error. The Proclamation makes it clear that gender is an essential characteristic of one's purpose and identity in eternity.

  11. The Plan of Salvation and Axioms of Truth

    in LDS Gospel Discussion

    Posted

    3 minutes ago, wenglund said:

    If I thought you did understand, then I might give your assumed paradox some credence and be open to discussing.  But, I don't.

    Good day to you as well.

    Thanks, -Wade Englund-

    You really don't understand what the baptismal covenant means and it's part in the plan of salvation. If you did it's rather obvious why it's a paradox.

  13. The Plan of Salvation and Axioms of Truth

    in LDS Gospel Discussion

    Posted

    5 minutes ago, wenglund said:

    I appreciate the candor.

    However, I don't know about paradox, but I can certainly understand your dilemma (at least from my perspective).  Unlike with Elder Holland, where you are able to strain to shoehorn his quote to fit your outdated (in lieu of further light and knowledge) binary belief,  you now are in open defiance of another modern Apostle, if not a wealth of church material and mainstream belief,.

    But, I suspect it isn't a dilemma for you given your infamous deferential trust in your own powers of interpretation. You actually think you know better. And that is the gist of this thread.

    Good luck with that.

    Thanks, -Wade Englund-

    Well, if one understood the nature of repentance and baptism and the process of what happens there they would realize the paradox. It doesn't appear you want to discuss so I won't. Good day.

  15. A possible different system of choosing

    in LDS Gospel Discussion

    Posted · Edited by Rob Osborn

    1 hour ago, wenglund said:

    You evidently do't fully or correctly comprehend 2 Nephi 2, particularly verse 16.

    Thanks, -Wade Enlgund-

    Well, there's certainly more to the story of Adam and Eve and Satan and the plan than we know. The important part is that laws exist and either rewards or punishment laying either way. 

    Evil doesn't require evil to already exist for it to come into being to begin with. As such, righteousness doesn't depend on evil existing to come to pass.

  19. The Plan of Salvation and Axioms of Truth

    in LDS Gospel Discussion

    Posted

    1 hour ago, mikbone said:

    When we were first produced as our Heavenly Parent's spirit children we began the pathway that led to Eternal Life.  But as we know, a third part of the premortal spirits decided to rebel against Heavenly Father's plan.  We don't know why they rebelled.  They had belief systems or personalities or prejudices that precluded them from following Jehovah.  People be crazy!  The homeless people on the street don't have to live that way, they choose to.  How many people are on the dole because it is easier to claim disability then go out and work a difficult job.  How many people choose to never have children because it is a cramp in their lifestyle.  

    If you don't want to work and have a large family then the Celestial Kingdom is not for you.   And there are lots of people out there that want neither.  

    Moses 1:39  For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

    And I loved Dallin H. Oaks October 2018 talk - Truth and the Plan.  It is Core / Eternal Doctrine and an instant classic.  It was my favorite talk of the entire conference.  Other than the announcement of the 2 hour block.  

    I see it slightly different. A selfish person, unwilling to obey and work hard isn't even worthy of hire and until they change their outlook and heart don't merit salvation. The ticket is that people can change and most will.

  20. The Plan of Salvation and Axioms of Truth

    in LDS Gospel Discussion

    Posted

    1 hour ago, Traveler said:

    The most important single principle of G-d plan is Agency.  It was the principle of agency that caused the great war in heaven.  Because of Agency, G-d will not force any one into being or becoming anything.  Rather, Agency makes us "independent" in the sphere that we are placed.  The scripture describe a minimum of three eternal spheres greater than outer darkness each of which is governed by applicable laws suitable to that sphere.

    I have often pondered that whatever "sphere" someone obtains and therefore placed; that it is quite possible that they will so believe they are better than those in "other spheres" - and so think they in error, that since they are not in a place they know to be lower - that they think they are in the heaven they envisioned appropriate for G-ds. 

     

    The Traveler

    The gospel is structured in a manner in which all the covenants depend on each other and lead naturally into the next higher, and so on. The first saving covenant we make, yea, the very gate is repentance and baptism and the covenant promise we make is to be obedient to all God commands us to do (speaking of futurity). Failure of this leads to a loss of salvation because it would mean we defy Christ.

  22. Wheat and Tares and Other Gospel Verses

    in LDS Gospel Discussion

    Posted

    1 hour ago, Jersey Boy said:

    Just because the temple teaches the earth has, so far, gone through a paradisical phase and is now in a telestial phase, and that it will once again go through a paradisical phase during the millennium, and then finally be celestialized, doesn’t mean there aren’t also going to be post-resurrection telestial and terrestrial kingdoms of glory — a fact that is repeatedly taught in the scriptures. Your mistake is that you are stubbornly conflating two distinct cosmological phenomena. For example, D&C 88 clearly teaches a great many humans will receive telestial and terrestrial bodies and glories after the day of quickening, or resurrection day. 

    Since joining the Church in 1970, I have known for decades that the Church teaches there’s a big difference between our present fallen telestial earth and what will be the post-resurrection telestial and terrestrial abodes of heavenly glory. Perhaps you didn’t get the memo?

    Now in time past this earth had a paradisiacal glory, and then came the fall, bringing a change, and that change has been upon the earth in the neighborhood of 6,000 years. What is meant by the restoration of the earth? This earth is to be renewed and brought back to the condition in which it was before it was cursed through the fall of Adam. When Adam passed out of the Garden of Eden, then the earth became a telestial world, and it is of that order today. I do not mean a telestial glory such as will be found in telestial worlds after their resurrection, but a telestial condition which has been from the days of Adam until now and will continue until Christ comes. (Doctrines of Salvation, 1:85)

     

    What section 88 isn't exactly clear on is the resurrection and kingdoms. It does speak of one recieving their body according to the glory of their resurrection. Now, we know that since Christ the resurrection has already begun. But what glory has their resurrection been with? This is the grand key in my opinion. A body is resurrected by the glory which it is quickened with. It is the earth and glory of that it posseses that resurrects. Thus, because we now enjoy telestial glory all those resurrected to this point have been resurrected by telestial glory. The key word on section 88 is where it says all those of a "Celestial spirit" meaning those living according to a Celestial law in the spirit world are able to be resurrected first and they are resurrected by the glory at that time.  The earth, even though it abides a Celestial law, it only has telestial glory at this time and thus as a mother bearing children in this sense, resurrects with that glory. That said, all resurrected bodies will be quickened to terrestrial glory when Christ comes again.

     

  24. Wheat and Tares and Other Gospel Verses

    in LDS Gospel Discussion

    Posted

    Just now, Jersey Boy said:

    Instead of deflecting, please directly answer the question I asked. Do you believe Elder Holland would agree with you that the earth in its present fallen telestial state is one and the same with the telestial kingdom spoken of in D&C sections 76 and 88?

    The way I read Holland's statement is that the specific wording of this world being the telestial kingdom is the same as the temple and scripture. I'm not sure what his actual detailed thoughts are, none of us do. What we do know is that no differentiation has been explained by Elder Holland to say they are different kingdoms. I honestly would hope that he believes we are in the telestial kingdom now and progress through the terrestrial and then into the Celestial just as the temple teaches. I expect he is more of a temple knowledge master and thus understands the true meaning and placement of the kingdoms. But, he probably reserves most of his beliefs to himself.

  25. The Plan of Salvation and Axioms of Truth

    in LDS Gospel Discussion

    Posted

    Several recent topics have got me thinking again about truth and the plan. As was posted in an earlier post Elder Dallin H. Oaks spoke in our last conference and gave this talk and spoke about the truth and the plan in reference to both the plan of salvation and the Proclamation. https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2018/10/truth-and-the-plan?lang=eng 

    As I was reading and contemplating things this past weekend several words came manifest before my own understanding. Those words were "structure" and "axioms". These both relate to truth in the gospel. In his talk, something stuck out at me as not fitting into the structure of the plan of salvation nor did I see it as an axiom of truth. Here is the quote-

    "The purpose of the Church of Jesus Christ is to qualify His children for the highest degree of glory, which is exaltation or eternal life. For those who do not desire or qualify for that, God has provided other, though lesser, kingdoms of glory.

    Anyone who understands these eternal truths can understand why we members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints think as we do and do as we do."

    I bolded the part that caused me to contemplate. And so I read what the Proclamation actually says, which is an axiom of truth. Here-

    "..the family is central to the Creator’s plan for the eternal destiny of His children...Each is a beloved spirit son or daughter of heavenly parents, and, as such, each has a divine nature and destiny...IN THE PREMORTAL REALM, spirit sons and daughters knew and worshipped God as their Eternal Father and accepted His plan by which His children could obtain a physical body and gain earthly experience to progress toward perfection and ultimately realize their divine destiny as heirs of eternal life."

    As I read this I contemplated this truth regarding our destiny as heirs of eternal life. There is no part of Gods plan that doesnt produce this end result. I cant fathom the thought that someone could enter into His plan and at some point not "desire" what we came for and still find glory in the end. Thats like saying Gods plan isnt really to give eternal life to all his children he saves but rather save them in varrying degrees of complacency and laziness. We are taught another axiom of truth that all of Gods laws and ordinances are to both save us and grant us eternal life. Another axiom according to the structure of the plan is that families are "central" to the plan of salvation. Put into action, no man is saved unless he is saved into and with his family in eternity.

    As I look over these axioms of our belief it helps me to understand the structure of the gospel and that when something is said contrary to one of these axioms we should not hold it as "truth". Truth is dependent on the entire structure and axioms that cannot be changed from the foundation of the world. It is my belief that no one who ends up saved from hell in the end has grown to desire a status short of godliness. Its basically saying "yes, we desire salvation at thy hand Lord, but do not desire to be obedient to thy commands."