Rob Osborn
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Posts posted by Rob Osborn
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1 minute ago, Emmanuel Goldstein said:
I see, there are three kingdoms of Glory after the last judgement, so no, one does not need to follow the Savior in all he commands to receive the lower two kingdoms. Only those that follow the path of the Gospel will enter into the Celestial realm. However, if you want to receive the fullness of the Celestial Kingdom you need to repent and accept the Atonement of Christ into your life. In our mortal state it is impossible to live the commands of Jesus 100 percent, that is why the Atonement was needed, so we can repent when we fall short of the commandments of God.
So, you believe there is another path other than the one the Savior speaks of to be saved. Is this correct?
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7 minutes ago, Emmanuel Goldstein said:
What do you mean by "hell?"
Um, the place where the devil and his angels go- outer darkness.
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6 minutes ago, Emmanuel Goldstein said:
I think we should live the Gospel of Jesus Christ as contained in the Standard works of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. We should also consider the teachings of the living prophets as the gospel as well. Hope that clarifies how I feel about it.
So, do you believe someone can escape hell eternally without following the Savior in all he commands?
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5 minutes ago, Emmanuel Goldstein said:
What is your point? Because your questions feel like a logic trap to me.
Welcome to my brain, eh heh. My point is about seeing if one really believes there is one path or many. If one, then what type of individual gets saved in the end?
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8 minutes ago, Emmanuel Goldstein said:
Yes
Do you believe anyone be saved from the eternal hell without strict adherence to the gate and path?
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11 minutes ago, wenglund said:
I am interested in learning what you all believe is meant by "the Word," particularly as it relates to the first 5 verses of John 1
According to the Joseph Smith Translation, the Word is "the gospel preached .through the Son."
Of course, this can have layers of meaning and applications just as with the designation "the Word."
According to Wikipedia regarding Logos (Word), "Despite the conventional translation as "word", it is not used for a word in the grammatical sense; instead, the term lexis (λέξις, léxis) was used.[9] However, bothl Logos and lexis derive from the same verb légō (λέγω), meaning "(I) count, tell, say, speak".[1][9][10] (bold mine)
What I find interesting about this is, that verse 3 of John 1 Indicates that, "All things were made by him [i.e. the Word, God the Son, or the Gospel through Christ]; and without him was not anything made that was made." (bold mine)
Whereas, throughout the creation narrative of Gen. 1, we read: "And God said..." (bold mine)
This suggests to me that "the Word" or Logos, is a means of creation. By virtue of speaking, or through the application of language and reason (another connotation of Logos), order may be brought out of chaos (Gen. 1), and light separated from darkness (Gen. 1:1-5 and Jn 1:4-5)
I see this as tying in to the gospel through Christ (the Word), not only during the pre-existence, but also during mortality and beyond.
As for the pre-existence, and expanding upon the JST of Jn 1 in connection with Gen. 1, the gospel was preached, or in other words the Plan of Progression was presented, and the light was separated from darkness, or rather those who accepted the Plan were separated from those who rejected it. Those who followed Christ were separated from those who followed Satan.
Furthermore, in terms of mortality and beyond, by way of the preaching the gospel through Christ, then out of the chaos of natural man is created a new creature, a spiritual man like unto Christ. (there are many scriptures that could be quoted, but I trust many have already come to your mind)
Fun stuff. What do you think?
Thanks, -Wade Englund-
If we could actually see our words through spiritual eyes it would be sequences of actual spiritual matter in varioys arrangements.
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6 minutes ago, Emmanuel Goldstein said:
There are many paths, but when you enter into baptism then the way is very narrow.
Yes. Do you believe there is only one narrow strait path to salvation?
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On 1/21/2019 at 9:40 AM, Traveler said:
Recently I encountered the idea that if we are all on and stay on the same path – we will all end up at the same destination.
Im curious to know- do you believe in the gospel of salvation there is one path or many and if there is more than one path does it lead to a different destination?
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One point must remain- only those who reach the end of the path can be saved. If the path is change of one's carnal self into godliness with the accompanying ordinances and covenants then the destination itself is in that sense a complete change from carnality into godliness. Thus it causes me to marvel that none of these I mention below Christ can save as they enter not in at the gate nor follow the strait and narrow path of change-
103 These are they who are liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie. (D&C 76:103)
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Speaking of the path or way of salvation-
"Pondering upon the subject of temples and the means therein provided to enable us to ascend into heaven brings to mind the lesson of Jacob's dream. You will recall that in the twenty-eight chapter of Genesis there is an account of his return to the land of his father to seek a wife from among his own people. When Jacob traveled from Beersheba toward Haran, he had a dream in which he saw himself on earth at the foot of a ladder that reached to heaven where the Lord stood above it. He beheld angels ascending and descending thereon, and Jacob realized that the covenants he made with the Lord there were the rungs on the ladder that he himself would have to climb in order to obtain the promised blessings--blessings that would entitle him to enter heaven and associate with the Lord. " (Marion G. Romney)
“Paul ascended into the third heaven, and he could understand the three principal rounds of Jacob's ladder-the telestial, the terrestrial, and the celestial glories or kingdoms, where Paul saw and heard things which were not lawful for him to utter." (Joseph Smith)
"When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top; and so it is with the principles of the gospel--you must begin with the first, and go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave."
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2 hours ago, Jersey Boy said:
There you go again totally ignoring another wonderful clarifying statement from an apostle of the Lord — in this case one of the greatest scholars in the history of the restored Church — who testifies there’s a major difference between the pre-resurrection fallen telestial orb on which we now dwell, and the telestial world of post-resurrection glory that will be inherited by those who receive a telestial glory.
D&C 88 builds upon the foundation of D&C 76, so why are you mystified about where the inheritors of telestial, terrestrial and celestial resurrected bodies will dwell? Doesn’t D&C 76 make it perfectly clear that those who are resurrected with telestial bodies are going to inherit the telestial kingdom glory? And isn’t it also true that those who are resurrected with terrestrial bodies will dwell in the terrestrial kingdom of glory, and that those who are resurrected with celestial bodies will inhabit the celestial kingdom of glory? This is what the Church has been teaching as fundamental truth since 1832. It’s very odd to encounter an apparently knowledgeable member of the Church who expresses wonderment about where those who inherit resurrected telestial bodies will dwell in the eternities. This is the kind of basic stuff a young member teenager would know.
Another question: I’m curious to know how many members of the Church you’ve thus far been able to convince that there aren’t three degrees of glory after the resurrection?
My understanding has come from a thorough study of the doctrine of over 20+ years on this subject. I first noted some inconsistencies about 20 plus years ago and decided to embark on a more thorough study of it. It took two decades to come to where I am at today. Several Paramount paradoxes exist in section 76 when read through the lens of our current plan of salvation doctrine. I have been working through those to eliminate the paradoxes. It really led back to reading the Book of Mormon through the words how Joseph Smith used them in the 1830's and structuring the gospel kind of from scratch, not using our modern understanding as that is not how Joseph Smith used the words. The beautiful part is that once it all started to come together I found those gems in the temple that sealed the deal for me. It's now almost picture perfect.
I have been able to convince most of my family members who are still alive of these truths.
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1 hour ago, mikbone said:
But it is ok for you to ignore D&C 76?
The Temple narrative teaches us that the Earth originally had a paradisaical glory, now it sustains a telestial glory. During the Millennium it will likely have a terrestrial glory.
The Earth has already been baptized (the flood), and it will go through a baptism of fire (the destruction of fire at the last days), and eventually it will become celestialized. see D&C 88:18-19, and D&C 77:1.
The final Judgement occurs after the millennium. Only celestial beings we be able to dwell with God on the Earth after it has been celestialized - this Earth will be the CK. Those that are judged to be terrestrial or terrestrial will have to go to other spheres of glory. And the Son's of Perdition will be cast out to a location without glory.
We will continue to follow God's laws. And I assume that there will be other covenants that we will have to partake of as we continue to become more like our Heavenly Parents.
We are all on the same page with everything you said except for my belief is different for the worlds of glory after resurrection and judgment. My belief is that only the earth in it's Celestial glory or outer darkness exists at that point. I believe the millennium is for the purpose to perfect all of Christ's fold to be presented spotless to the Father and all will dwell together as families in the CK
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1 hour ago, The Folk Prophet said:
The Family Proclamation says gender is eternal. It doesn't say sex is (I'm not talking about "having" sex, I'm talking about being a sex). Though I personally doubt it, I can't see how it would be any more speculative than all the other speculation that seems to occur that the eternity of "gender" is something beyond sex organs, and that sex organs are a reflection of gender rather than the other way around, eternally speaking, and that thereby the quote could be correct and still in line with the Proclamation on the Family.
Sex organs are as a much a part of our eternal gender identity as anything else.
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4 minutes ago, Emmanuel Goldstein said:
I am interested in reading where everyone thinks this took place?
Western New York
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31 minutes ago, mikbone said:
Why not try and consider that we are not in the Telestial Kingdom. And that we are governed by a mortal probationary law instead of a Telestial law.
That alone could solve many of your hang-ups.
D&C 76: 89-99 might be of particular interest
Hum...the temple teaches us otherwise though. We learn two very important things there. First, we learn that our world we now live in is the telestial kingdom/ telestial world. And second, we receive commandments and laws here that govern this kingdom.
I mean we could disregard what the temple says, pretend the wording is different but where does that put us?
Also, if you think we are under just a mortal and probationary law, does this mean that the law of sacrifice, law of chastity, law of obedience, etc, are just mortal probationary laws?
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57 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:
I agree. I'm not seeing how Fielding Smith disagrees with you at all on these points.
Once again, the only differences I see is that he feels that other degrees of glory exist AFTER the resurrection and appointment to these degrees are eternal. As you do not believe these exist in that state, the best option is probably to disregard statements he has made in regards to the conditions of those in those degrees and consider it his personal beliefs.
You are trying to apply the basketballs to apples.
He completely agrees with you in regards to what you feel about procreation in this world and the millennial world.
He made some statements regarding the judgment AFTER THIS LIFE and the results of those who do not make it to Exaltation. As you do not believe in this belief (from what I can tell) then his statements should have no application in regards to your own from what I can see.
It is like a Catholic telling us that all babies go to Limbo. It has no application to our belief as we don't even believe in Limbo.
PS: On the otherhand, for those that DO believe the same as the Catholics, it may have a great deal to do with their belief. The same applies here. His teaching on degrees of glory you do not believe in regarding after judgment and during the eternities should have no bearing on your thoughts really, but may have a great deal of bearing for those who do believe the same thing.
Aye, I think the big difference is not so much in wether or not there are three separate world's of glory or one but perhaps the belief that lower kingdoms have laws granting marriage and sexual relations within marriages. He doesn't believe so, I believe otherwise.
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4 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:
I'm not sure I follow you, and I don't find you offensive at all. I will try to answer.
There is nothing in Joseph Fielding's writings or teachings that say you cannot be married and sealed in the Temple, in fact he encourages it.
You won't be able to have spirit children in this life however, nor will you be able to create physical bodies for those spirit children you created. He would say that is something ONLY those who are exalted in the Celestial Kingdom can do.
You CAN create mortal bodies for your spirit brothers and sisters to experience mortality here on this earth.
I think the most important thing here is that the sexual reproductive parts of our bodies are utilized within the lower laws of this kingdom we are now in. And, as such, in eternity that same pattern exists.
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6 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:
You should be aware I was merely pointing out that Joseph Fielding Smith (and actually Bruce R. Mckonkie if you read Mormon Doctrine, I can eventually write up his writing on the Telestial Kingdom to a degree) had a different belief of what happens in regards to the Telestial, Terrestrial, and Celestial glory compared to what you believe. This is the reason that you have difficulties or do not agree with his statements.
However, in a way, it is like comparing apples and oranges. He would agree with you that we are able to have mortal posterity during this life. That those married on this Earth in this mortal Telestial world are able to have children, and those in the Millennium will also have children.
The differences arise because he believes that those who are given glories in heaven that you do not feel exist, will not have the procreative powers. Both he and you would agree that in Exaltation these powers will exist.
It boils down solely to the idea that he feels that the Telestial and Terrestrial glories are things that are given out in the Afterlife for eternity, and with them certain aspects, while you do not feel they even exist.
Hence the differences and reasons WHY he is saying what he says and why you may have trouble with it. However, in the aspect of your belief, with the exception of the ideas of an eternal Telestial and Terrestrial glory in the afterlife, he is not actually disagreeing with your thoughts in regards to procreation in this Telestial world or the Millennium.
I think the big disagreement in the conversation at hand is this erroneous idea that marriage is only recognized within the highest glory of the CK. Now, the real truth, strictly according to scripture, is that in order to reach the highest glory one must be married. That's all it says. It doesn't say anything more or less. Here-
"2 And in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood [meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage]"
Now, the logic is that we aren't married within the Celestial kingdom itself as marriage isn't given after resurrection and judgment. We are married "before". And, this marriage happens in a lower order of kingdoms. Thus, applying some simple logic, it's not saying eternal marriage is only recognized within the highest glory, it's saying instead that if one wants to go there he or she must be married at minimum.
The logic of eternal laws is as follows- all of God's laws make up the fullness of laws within the CK. But, this doesn't mean he has completely different laws in lower kingdoms than the CK. Lower kingdoms, such as ours we are now in, have a portion of the laws that govern the CK, we just don't have all of them. The terrestrial kingdom has all of our laws of the telestial kingdom plus some additional laws. All those laws make up a greater portion of the laws of the CK but not all of them. Thus, all laws, whether telestial or terrestrial, are also Celestial, just that it's not the fullest measure of all the laws.
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7 minutes ago, mikbone said:
Your last post makes sense logically.
But does not explain. This post...
And Earth / mortal life is not the Telestial Kingdom. It is more of a transitory testing period.
I am a bit confused about your motivation. Are attempting to seek information. Teach your own version of the gospel. Or just troll the site?
We are in the telestial kingdom now. Whether one believes it is the same kingdom or different than after judgment and resurrection is irrelevant. The point Im making is that in our kingdom we are now in it is governed by law. Within that law are certain blessings and restrictions. Marriage is a blessing afforded to us in this kingdom. Because we are governed by telestial law it is safe to say that within telestial law marriage is recognized.
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Im not buying into the whole spirit progression from animals to humans. God creates according to the spheres he has placed them within. Thus, for an animal such as a dog, its greatest joy is filling its measure of creation as being a friend to man. It will never know nor understand what its like to be human. It will also not understand its placement as if it missed out on something greater as it will only u derstand its own greatness by filling its own purpose. In its own sphere there will be perfection of joy in filling its creation.
- clbent04 and JohnsonJones
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53 minutes ago, mikbone said:
I have difficulty following your logic.
I consider myself blessed to have been sealed in the House of the Lord to my family.
If you find it offensive, you should probably have a conversation with your Bishop.
Are you a LDS? I originally assumed that you were...
I am LDS and endowed and sealed to my wife in the temple. Heres the logic-
We arent in the celestial kingdom physically right now are we?
We are in a lower order of kingdom right now. Still following?
In this lower order of kingdom God gives to us laws to abide by while here. Still following?
These first laws are part of or make up a portion of higher laws. Correct?
In this kingdom we are now in God gives to us law upon law, line upon line. Correct?
One of the laws he has given us in this kingdom is the law of chastity.
God has also given to us in this kingdom the eternal law of marriage of which we are to abide by.
Thus, for every kingdom there are laws and blessings. Activities within kingdoms are governed by eternal laws. We are allowed access to portions of Gods blessings in kingdoms according to laws. This means that as long as we follow the laws within that kingdom our activities within said kingdom are justified according to eternal law.
Still following?
Therefore, eternal marriage, which is a commandment is also both a law and a blessing. Even though our eternal marriage, in its fullest blessings, isn't realized until our glory within the celestial kingdom (a higher order of kingdom than the one we are now in), it is still upheld and recognized by law and as law within this lower kingdom we are now in.
Thus, do you see this logic as offensive.
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Just now, mikbone said:
One problem with your original statement is that it is way to broad. If you perhaps have a more narrow point of view I have missed it.
The obvious problem with your statement is that it contradicts the Sealing Ordinance that was returned to the Earth by Elijah to Joseph Smith.
Some of us devout LDS find such statements offensive.
Is it offensive that God gives his ordinances of eternal marriage to man in lower orders of kingdoms such as our we are now in?
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5 minutes ago, mikbone said:
What was your point with this statement?
You do realize that your statements directly contradict LDS core dictrine?
My point is that eternal marriage is given to man in the lower order of kingdoms. Are we not in a lower kingdom than the Celestial right now?
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8 minutes ago, mikbone said:
so does baptism...
BaptIs is the gate that opens into the path.
The Path or Way
in LDS Gospel Discussion
Posted
Well, the scriptures speak of being "saved" from hell. It doesn't speak of being saved from anything else. If we are saved, in gospel terms, we are "saved" from hell.