[Wheat and Tares and Other Gospel Verses]

We as men grade and seean as what has been. God grades and sees men as what we may become. 

[Wheat and Tares and Other Gospel Verses]

10 minutes ago, Traveler said:

I think you have completely missed the point of the labors - they are not laboring for themselves, they are laboring for the owner of the vineyard. 

 

The Traveler

Let me quote from Jefferey R. Holland on what he speaks in part about the laborers in the vineyard-

"My beloved brothers and sisters, to those of you who have been blessed by the gospel for many years because you were fortunate enough to find it early, to those of you who have come to the gospel by stages and phases later, and to those of you—members and not yet members—who may still be hanging back, to each of you, one and all, I testify of the renewing power of God’s love and the miracle of His grace. His concern is for the faith at which you finally arrive, not the hour of the day in which you got there."

[Wheat and Tares and Other Gospel Verses]

Just now, Traveler said:

Obviously this is not a perfect example of the principle of justice - which is the question I was asking - so what then is the principle at play in the parable?  I would have loved to moved on to that question if we could only resolved with some agreement -  the principle of justice.

 

The Traveler

Justice always will be met. Everyone will find, in the end, the same obedience is required for salvation.

[Wheat and Tares and Other Gospel Verses]

2 minutes ago, Traveler said:

I never turn down an opportunity to exchange ideas - though sometimes I let my ego get the better of things - I still apologize for some of my past digressions with you.  One "principle" I was trying to get to; is that there is a lot more going on than "justice" in the plan of salvation - even though justice is an integral part of the plan of salvation.

One thing that concerns me about salvation is that it seems many are concerned that they get everything that anybody else gets that are included in the rewards associated with salvation that are given out by G-d.  I am quite sure that salvation is not a "just" reward but rather something else that takes it completely out of the reward category.  

 

The Traveler

But, we only gain salvation after all we can do. We still are imperfect without the atonement. The parable of the laborers shows that the reward of salvation from hell and saved is the same regardless of when one comes to repentance just as long as they repent. In the end they still all end up the same type of being.

[Wheat and Tares and Other Gospel Verses]

I guess my point is- sure, one may be further on the path than another in the destination of perfection and eternal life but it's most important to get on the path. Being on the path leads to the same destination. In the end, once everyone arrives, all will have worked the same laws and obedience as another, it just may take some longer. The focus though is on the end result. If the result is the same, perhaps it doesn't matter so much on if one thinks he's working harder than another. The prodigal son testifies of this and also cautions on being prideful thinking one deserves more cause they were obedient longer.

[Wheat and Tares and Other Gospel Verses]

15 minutes ago, Traveler said:

I thought my question was clear - The question is about the principle of justice.  It appears to me that either you do not understand the principle of justice or that you do not want to discuss that principle and are trying to shift my question to a completely different principle.  So I will ask again - it is "just" to compensate two individuals exactly the same; when one has definitely worked harder, longer, with more dedication and sacrifice than the other?

 

The Traveler

It depends upon what reward or purpose we are speaking of. The laborers in the vineyard shows this. Was not their pay the same when one worked longer than the other in the Lord's vineyard?

[Wheat and Tares and Other Gospel Verses]

3 hours ago, Traveler said:

For as in Adam all die even so in Christ shall all be made alive.  We also know that every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ.

But let us consider what I think you would understand and call a principle.  That is the eternal principle of "Justice".  Is that eternal principle justice served (achieved) if someone less dedicated (even ever so slightly) receives the same conclusion of someone more disciplined?

 

The Traveler

Definitely an advantage in a sense. But, on an individual basis, seeking the same destination, is there not just one gate? Is there not but one path? And if a path, to one destination?

[Wheat and Tares and Other Gospel Verses]

3 hours ago, Jersey Boy said:

Believe it or not, Rob is actually onto something that’s deeply profound and true, which is why he’s so bold and adamant when he defends his position. What he’s discovered is so beautiful and wonderful that he can’t imagine having to let it go.

The only problem is that while what he has discovered does have a strong element of truth that’s not widely understood and therefore nor generally talked about in today’s Church, the sad reality that he’s taken that vein of great truth he’s discovered way too far, to the point that he’s often at odds with the scriptures and the teachings of the modern prophets. And it seems whenever scriptures are presented to him that powerfully contradict his views he rationalizes his rejection of the teachings of the Church by claiming the verses cited were either written at a time when the writers had limited understanding or that the verses don’t mean what they very clearly appear to be saying. He will also cite verses of scripture that appear to bolster his point of view and expect those who disagree with him to have to confront and deal with what those verses say, while he’s simultaneously dismissive of any verses that strongly contradict his ideas

About 25 years ago I discovered the same vein of gospel truth Rob has discovered, but I made darn sure that while I was processing this newfound knowledge that I wasn’t also contradicting the scriptures and the doctrines of the restored Church. By the time I had fully finished formulating and setting in order this newfound gospel knowledge, much to my intense joy I learned the Book of Mormon’s plan of salvation and the one presented in D&C sections 19, 76, 88, 132 and 138 are in total harmony with each other. Thanks to the acquisition of this deeper understanding of the gospel, the joy and confidence I now feel when defending the doctrines of the restoration is great. 

What follows is a good example of verses of scripture that clearly contradict what Rob believes. After coming to an understand of what these verses say there are only two possibilities: either Rob is clearly wrong, or the celestial kingdom has three degrees of glory. And if the later is the case,, we might as well just accept that there are three degrees of glory in the Father’s mansions of glory. 

(Please note the word ‘quickened’ in the following verses means ‘resurrected’j

27 For notwithstanding they die, they also shall rise again, a spiritual body.
28 They who are of a celestial spirit shall receive the same body which was a natural body; even ye shall receive your bodies, and your glory shall be that glory by which your bodies are quickened.
29 Ye who are quickened by a portion of the celestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.
30 And they who are quickened by a portion of the terrestrial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.
31 And also they who are quickened by a portion of the telestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness. 

32 And they who remain shall also be quickened; nevertheless, they shall return again to their own place, to enjoy that which they are willing to receive, because they were not willing to enjoy that which they might have received.(D&C 88)

I think we speak of many of the same great truths. However, I'm curious, what do you think is meant by those "who are of a Celestial spirit" means? I have my own drawn out belief here but I want to hear what you think it means.

[Wheat and Tares and Other Gospel Verses]

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

Let us review a couple of points.  Because of the war in heaven we are told that a third part were cast out with Satan.  Not only did the ancient Hebrews not understand the mathematical concept of zero - they did not understand fractions.  This tells us that it was not 1/3 of heaven but rather that during the war in heaven there that the kingdom was divided into 3 parts - one of which was cast out.  The next obvious question is - what were the other two "parts".  If you study scripture and know to look for 3 parts you will find them.

Interestingly the number 3 has "symbolic" meaning in scripture - do you know what that meaning is?  I will help you a little - where is the number 3 used and for what purpose and reason?  Why 3 and not 1, 2 or 4?  In particular where is man divided into 3 parts?  and what is the covenant made with each of the 3 parts?

I will try to help you a little - one of the symbolic references given to one part of heaven is the term "first born".  What is the symbolic meaning of the first born?  Here is a hint - it does not mean the chronological oldest.  The people of ancient Near Eastern kingdoms were divided into three parts - Egypt was one such kingdom.  One part was called "the first born".  In the revelations we have of the pre-existence, G-d says of one part of the population (after Satan and his followers had been cast out) - "These I will make my rulers".   In Alma chapter 13 - we are told that if we were not pre-ordained in the pre-existence that we would not have opportunity to receive the priesthood and the blessings of the priesthood during our mortal probation.  

Now lets go back a little - where was Satan and those that followed him sent to?   Where did they go when they left heaven?  Here is a possible answer - they came to earth and became tareson earth.  Where did the rest of the spirits of heaven end up going?  Here is a possible answer - the came to earth as wheat.  What will happen when the wheat has grown and is ready for harvest?  Note wheat does not grow for most of the season and somehow end up as a tare - likewise something growing as a tare does not end up as wheat.

 

The Traveler 

All good points. The 1/3 bit is a topic all by itself and would be fun to discuss. I think the main point is that in the end all those Christ saves are all part of his one fold. They have all come in by the same gate and followed the same path. They all end up alike at harvest. All their saving ordinances and covenants are in order and obedience has been shown. It is only this type of person that can be saved. We should be viewing the parable of the wheat and tares as all of the wheat are "all" those Christ saves from perdition. There isn't some other group. There is only one shepherd and only one fold- only one kingdom and it is Christ's and Christ is Father's. All the saved become sons and daughters and heirs to all that God has.

[Wheat and Tares and Other Gospel Verses]

3 minutes ago, Traveler said:

No one here on the forum knows you - do not feel bad - they do not know me either.  So you can know me a little better - my goal and purpose in posting is to  attempt to get others to consider elements (or in your case - Principles" that they do not seem to understand.  In short it is a "have you considered this?" kind of thing.  Not because something is always right or wrong - just an effort to see what someone does with a different point of view.

I have assumed that, since your point of view is very different from most that you would want others to consider your point of view and that you would understand that as a "principle" of the Gospel or teachings of Christ - in short "The Golden Rule".  So when you imply that the church and others are embroiled in "false doctrine" and need to consider your point of view - I considered that a licence to approach you with the possibility that you are teaching false doctrine.  As you see above - you do not receive such an approach any better than everybody is receiving your methods to espouse your opinion.  Thus the accusation of "nitpick" and being mocked and and childish.  

Now, I will take an opportunity to say directly something I believe - something I do seldom on this forum but when I do I try to preface as I have done here.  I believe it you want something to change - the only possibility for change is yourself.  We have no power but to change ourselves.  And if we keep doing the same thing - we should expect the same results.  One of the other things I personally try to do in a discussion is to respond as long as someone is willing to listen.  So once in a while I will test a notion at extremes - as an engineer I have learned that you will learn more at the limits than at what is expected and usual.  

So the question now - are you as willing to consider and discuss with others meeting the same expectations yourself and consideration of their opinions as you expect them to consider and discuss with the same considerations you give to them.

 

The Traveler 

 

That's what we have been doing, discussing. I'm certainly up to other possiblities. It's interesting though that I can point something out and others don't see it and instead read something, completely not in the text, and say I'm wrong. For example, I explained earlier that in the parable of the wheat and the tares the "garners" are temples. I was told I was wrong. And so I go and get scriptures and words of prophets to support this meaning and in the end people just assume I'm a bafoon. As of yet, 5 pages later, I don't think anyone really believes there are just wheat or tares in the world. It's like they don't really believe Jesus. Have you ever seen the video of the invisible gorrilla http://www.theinvisiblegorilla.com/gorilla_experiment.html

We get so fixated on something we don't see something plain as day right in front of us and adamantly deny it. This is one of those things. I honestly think we get so fixated on things we can't see what simple thing is really going on. In the parable it really is true that there are only wheat and tares. But, because of our beliefs in general we don't see it. We keep insisting there is another group or another meaning.

I'm not kidding when I say I have been studying this parable quite diligently for nigh on to 20 years. For the longest time I couldn't see the gorilla. Then one day there it was and everything changed. It all fit in and made sense. And, I know I'm right. Now I am working on finding out how this all fits in together. My reference to people not understanding baptism and it's effects is spot on. But,bits sad that some take it so lightly and make fun of it to me that I'm just not willing to share. So, I hoped to help someone with that "aha!" Moment too but I'm afraid the window shut. I don't take these things lightly. I'm a very serious gospel thinker. I spend most of my waking day contemplating the details. I'm willing to share my knowledge and wisdom, even listen to others input and valuable knowledge and wisdom. Do you understand where I am coming from?

[Wheat and Tares and Other Gospel Verses]

11 And they that will harden their hearts, to them is given the lesser portion of the word until they know nothing concerning his mysteries; and then they are taken captive by the devil, and led by his will down to destruction. Now this is what is meant by the chains of hell. (Alma 12:11)

[Wheat and Tares and Other Gospel Verses]

23 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

This thread reminds me that you can be intelligent, devout and passionate-but if you can't find a way to communicate effectively with others, it's all sort of meaningless. 

This thread reminds me of this verse-

6 ¶ Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you. (Matthew 7:6)

[Wheat and Tares and Other Gospel Verses]

18 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I can't wait. 

And maybe I wont

[Wheat and Tares and Other Gospel Verses]

45 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Well, let's have it then.

I will start a new thread.

[Wheat and Tares and Other Gospel Verses]

40 minutes ago, Traveler said:

I also made a point about how we learn principles - pride is also a choice based upon principles.   So here as another principle for you to consider - the more one knows the more that is required of them.  Now understand - I am not saying you are wrong - but that your view is not perfect and needs some adjusting.  So here is my unworthy advice - since you are at odds with so many and since there is no second witness to your way of seeing things and so many witnesses (from those that have repented and been baptized - as pointed out by @The Folk Prophet) that you consider (at least in part) what you are demanding of everybody else - except for yourself.

 

The Traveler

One of the frustrating aspects is we tend to nitpick over frivolous things as a means to mock or degrade others. Anyone who knows me and my thinking knows the context I was using. So, it frustrates me when you chime in as a means to mock. It's childish, we need to get over such things if we are ever going to understand the gospel. I have many things I don't know much about, I know my weaknesses. What I do know is the gospel principles pretty good. I'm sorry if that troubles people.

[Wheat and Tares and Other Gospel Verses]

11 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Hmm. A quick tally of those who "don't understand baptism", or the plan of salvation, and therefore disagree with Christ's gospel. Let's see...a quick perusal of posts...ah, yes... (I'm sure I've missed a few here, so apologies...):

• zil
• anddenex
• Vort
• Just_a_Guy
• Traveler
• CV75
• estradling75
• MormonGator
• Guest
• anatess2
• wenglend
• Scott
• person0
• Jersey Boy
• Emmanuel Goldstein
• askandanswer
• Edspringer
• Colirio
• Carborendum
• ...etc
• ...etc
• ...(sorry if your name got left off...but there's a lot of posts and a lot of names....)...etc
• ...[your name goes here]...
• ...and, of course...The Folk Prophet

What a bunch of morons! Not a single one of you has the intelligence to understand scripture, the temple ceremony, the teachings of Christ, the gospel, or the ability to use a one-off quote by an apostle about the telestial kingdom to disregard all other quotes, comments and teachings of all the other apostles and prophets. Fools!

Those who do understand baptism, the plan of salvation, and agree with Christ's gospel:

• Rob Osborn

You would be surprised.

[Wheat and Tares and Other Gospel Verses]

14 minutes ago, Traveler said:

I hoped you would come to understand the prophesy of Isaiah of line upon line upon line and precept upon precept upon precept.  However your response was not a happy one to have learned a "better" precept.  If there is a point here - the precept of begrudgingly forced to acknowledge a truth is not nitpicking but rather an attitude that at some point will require repentance and an appreciation of a higher "principle" than the one you are stuck on.

 

The Traveler

In the context of what I was saying, baptism is an essential requirement for salvation. That is an unchangebale principle. If you want to disagree go ahead, it's your choice. I made a point, if you disagree that certain foundational principles of the gospel cannot change, that's your choice. 

 

[Wheat and Tares and Other Gospel Verses]

And I might add, if people really understood baptism and what it means we wouldn't even debating this subject, everyone would agree with Christ's gospel.

[Wheat and Tares and Other Gospel Verses]

3 hours ago, Traveler said:

Already your example is flawed (false) - little children do not need to be baptized.  What you think is an example of a fundamental principle is itself flawed so by your own definition - false doctrine.

 

The Traveler

Really? Nitpicking. Let me rephrase- every accountable person needs baptism to enter the kingdom of heaven.

[Wheat and Tares and Other Gospel Verses]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

You are simply wrong on every point here, and even worse, disconnecting every point from the whole.

How so? I think I understand the English language and how words and context is used. Perhaps I am wrong. Could you show me where I'm wrong on every point?

[Wheat and Tares and Other Gospel Verses]

42 minutes ago, Traveler said:

With such a proclivity for "false" doctrine - what is the point in thinking any particular doctrinal notion to be true?  Especially the notion that any modification of the notion or idea means that the doctrine is false?  I quoted Isaiah that all true doctrine from G-d will experience modifications which would indicate that your professed method of detecting "false" doctrine is its self false doctrine.

 

The Traveler

 

 

We can, or should, be able to establish principles of truth of Christ's doctrine from the scriptures. The rest of the gospel is built upon and based on those fundamental principles. Those fundamental truths do not nor cannot be changed. For instance, baptism is a requirement to enter the kingdom of heaven. That's a fundamental true principle. Any doctrine that tries to say otherwise is a false doctrine.

[Wheat and Tares and Other Gospel Verses]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

Assuming for simplicity’s sake we take the “greater whole” to be Section 29 for the time being, see verse 30: “But remember that all my judgments [e.g. the degrees of glory] are not given unto men…” but are yet to be revealed in Section 76, in accord with His closing statement in verse 50, “And now I declare no more unto you at this time.” Note also in verse 43, “he might be raised in immortality unto eternal life,” hinting that he also might be raised in immortality unto other judgements than those already mentioned.

Verse 30 is in the context of his judgments against the wicked previously spoken of in the previous verses. In verse 43 the part- "he might be raised in immortality unto eternal life" is in the context of those immediately mentioned- "even as many as would believe". Thats what it means. There is no other possibility spoken of here. The believers go into immortality and eternal life. The disbelievers into eternal damnation.

[Wheat and Tares and Other Gospel Verses]

20 minutes ago, Traveler said:

How do you know that it is not false doctrine to think so of G-d's approved church?  If the church that is established by G-d through divinely appointed prophets cannot avoid false doctrine - why do you think you can?

 

The Traveler

We are all imperfect. I too have espoused false doctrines, so too has just about every other member. It's human nature. We just don't have all the truth. We are still in process of learning, and that includes the church. Even our most holy things- the temple, keeps modifying it's processes, wording, etc.

[Wheat and Tares and Other Gospel Verses]

5 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

I have never actually entered this topic with him. I have entered others. I wanted to provide a full measure of dialogue where he presented his theory/belief, and then provide contrast. As he isn't willing to address what others have said, the discussion is not able to continue. As he isn't able to provide any other witness to his belief, the topic thus ends also.

 

I provide witnesses in a prophet and the temple. You cant understand that. Its fine, lets move on.

[Wheat and Tares and Other Gospel Verses]

11 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

Except when it says, "Behold, these are they who died without law." I am pretty sure "died" without law refers to after this life.  And the following information we have access to:

1) The lowest of the three degrees of glory in which people will dwell after the Final Judgment. (I am pretty sure Final Judgement is the key phrase here)

2) These are they who shall not be redeemed from the devil until the last resurrection, until the Lord, even Christ the Lamb, shall have finished his work.

3) These are they who receive not of his fulness in the eternal world, but of the Holy Spirit through the ministration of the terrestrial;

4) Through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, all people will be resurrected. After we are resurrected, we will stand before the Lord to be judged according to our desires and actions. Each of us will accordingly receive an eternal dwelling place in a specific kingdom of glory. The Lord taught this principle when He said, “In my Father’s house are many mansions” (John 14:2).

5) There are three kingdoms of glory: the celestial kingdom, the terrestrial kingdom, and the telestial kingdom. The glory we inherit will depend on the depth of our conversion, expressed by our obedience to the Lord’s commandments. It will depend on the manner in which we have “received the testimony of Jesus” (D&C 76:51; see also D&C 76:74, 79, 101).

6) In other words, th e kingdom of glory to which the Final Judgment assigns us is not determined by love but by the law that God has invoked in His plan to qualify us for eternal life, “the greatest of all the gifts of God” (D&C 14:7). Dallin H. Oaks

It doesn't need to be stated in Section 76 for it to be stated after the resurrection, but then again, I am noticing you don't want to address or talk about statements from living prophets and apostles that contradict your interpretation. OK, that is fine, and up to you.

We have discussed second death, and like this one, you present your personal interpretation. There isn't any whoremongers and sorcerers in Celestial glory, there are these individual in telestial glory. Simple truths as taught by the Lord's servants.

So, why are they in telestial glory when Christ cant save the unrepentant?