Rob Osborn
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Posts posted by Rob Osborn
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4 hours ago, Jersey Boy said:
16 And the resurrection from the dead is the redemption of the soul.
Basic resurrection here.
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54 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:
Maybe we should talk about the Pearl of Great Price instead. It has an account that I would think is more appropriate to discuss in Moses 1-6.
In this we could see it as symbolic to us and a representation of mankind, but also see that Moses is also discussing something that literally occurred. Just like much of the Old Testament (for example David's story is both literal and allegorical), it may be that the writings of Moses are bothor literal and allegorical.
I think anytime you introduce "allegorical" into a historical context it ends up conflating it into something fictional.
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1 hour ago, Jersey Boy said:
Here’s another perspective for you to consider with regard to the eternal fate of King David: The scriptures make it plain that those who become the sons of perdition descend to the lowest depths of depravity until they finally become the implacable and utterly destructive enemies of God. Not only do the sons of perdition have an unquenchable, evelasting hatred toward the God who gave them life, but, if it were possible, they would even attempt to destroy God and usurp his throne, which is why we are informed that the most fervent desire of these hateful creatures is to “crucify the Son of God afresh and put him to an open shame.” Not only do the sons of perdition hate and want to destroy God, but because their souls are in absolute darkness their other consuming desire is to make war against the saints and drag them down to hell.
Now I’m sure you will freely acknowledge all the aforesaid is totally true. So this prompts a very important question: Why after the acknowledgement of his sin to Nathan did David contiinually think and act very unlike a son of perdition? The following Psalm of David, written after his confession, evinces a state of mind and heart totally unlike that of a son of perdition. In the context of your ideas, the sixty-four thousand dollar question is why? Also consider that David continued to demonstrate the same broken-hearted and contrite attitude to the end of his life. Why if he is a son of perdition does David not at all act like a son of perdition is supposed to act?
1 Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.
2 Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.
3 For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.
4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.
5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
6 Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.
7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
8 Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice.
9 Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.
10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.
13 Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.
14 Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness.
15 O Lord, open thou my lips; and my mouth shall shew forth thy praise.
16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.
17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.
18 Do good in thy good pleasure unto Zion: build thou the walls of Jerusalem.
19 Then shalt thou be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness, with burnt offering and whole burnt offering: then shall they offer bullocks upon thine altar. (Psalm 31)
I find it interesting that all the while of his life he thinks like this, for we aren't told different, even entering into holy covenant with God and yet attempts to deceive the Lord and get away with murder. Hum...
Now, both Judas and Cain were the same...
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51 minutes ago, Jersey Boy said:
Your understanding is incorrect because the scriptures clearly teach there are pre-resurrection Telestial Kingdoms, such as the fallen planet earth on which we now live, and post-resurrection Telestial Kingdoms, the post-resurrection dwelling places of those who are are not worthy of either the Terrestrial or Celestial kingdoms of post-resurrection glory.
If you are up to it, I have an interesting challenge for you: At the end of this post I’m going to post 18 consecutive verses from Doctrine & Covenants 88 for you to consider and study. The challenge consists in first you, and then me, giving our own personal analysis of each individual verse, one post at a time. By proceeding with our analysis of each iverse one post at a time, we’ll be able to be very deliberate, specific and thorough in our analysis, and be enabled to proceed in a very methodical and uncluttered way.
If you are willing to take on the challenge, all you have to do is start by copying and pasting verse 16, along with your own best thoughtful analytical interpretation of what you believe the verse is teaching; I will then respond with my own interpretation of verse 16. Then you can continue the process by copying and posting verse 17 along with your commentary, and I’ll respond by doing the same. So as to keep things clear and simple throughout , we’ll hold off on directly debating each other on any points of disagreement until after the last verse has been analyzed .Hope you’re willing to take on this challenge because it could be enlightening and fun...
16 And the resurrection from the dead is the redemption of the soul.
17 And the redemption of the soul is through him that quickeneth all things, in whose bosom it is decreed that the poor and the meek of the earth shall inherit it.
18 Therefore, it must needs be sanctified from all unrighteousness, that it may be prepared for the celestial glory;
19 For after it hath filled the measure of its creation, it shall be crowned with glory, even with the presence of God the Father;
20 That bodies who are of the celestial kingdom may possess it forever and ever; for, for this intent was it made and created, and for this intent are they sanctified.
21 And they who are not sanctified through the law which I have given unto you, even the law of Christ, must inherit another kingdom, even that of a terrestrial kingdom, or that of a telestial kingdom.
22 For he who is not able to abide the law of a celestial kingdom cannot abide a celestial glory.
23 And he who cannot abide the law of a terrestrial kingdom cannot abide a terrestrial glory.
24 And he who cannot abide the law of a telestial kingdom cannot abide a telestial glory; therefore he is not meet for a kingdom of glory. Therefore he must abide a kingdom which is not a kingdom of glory.
25 And again, verily I say unto you, the earth abideth the law of a celestial kingdom, for it filleth the measure of its creation, and transgresseth not the law--
26 Wherefore, it shall be sanctified; yea, notwithstanding it shall die, it shall be quickened again, and shall abide the power by which it is quickened, and the righteous shall inherit it.
27 For notwithstanding they die, they also shall rise again, a spiritual body.
28 They who are of a celestial spirit shall receive the same body which was a natural body; even ye shall receive your bodies, and your glory shall be that glory by which your bodies are quickened.
29 Ye who are quickened by a portion of the celestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.
30 And they who are quickened by a portion of the terrestrial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.
31 And also they who are quickened by a portion of the telestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.
32 And they who remain shall also be quickened; nevertheless, they shall return again to their own place, to enjoy that which they are willing to receive, because they were not willing to enjoy that which they might have received.
33 For what doth it profit a man if a gift is bestowed upon him, and he receive not the gift? Behold, he rejoices not in that which is given unto him, neither rejoices in him who is the giver of the gift. (D&C 88)Certainly, we can go over those verses one by one. But we need to start with verses 2-5 to preface the context.
2 Behold, this is pleasing unto your Lord, and the angels rejoice over you; the alms of your prayers have come up into the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth, and are recorded in the book of the names of the sanctified, even them of the celestial world.
3 Wherefore, I now send upon you another Comforter, even upon you my friends, that it may abide in your hearts, even the Holy Spirit of promise; which other Comforter is the same that I promised unto my disciples, as is recorded in the testimony of John.
4 This Comforter is the promise which I give unto you of eternal life, even the glory of the celestial kingdom;
5 Which glory is that of the church of the Firstborn, even of God, the holiest of all, through Jesus Christ his Son-In verse 2 we read about the book of the names of the sanctified which are the inhabitants that will make up the Celestial world. This book is "the book of life". If your name is in it you are saved into the Celestial kingdom. But, if your name isn't in it you are the devil and his angels which go into the lake of fire and brimstone which is the second death.-
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev. 20:12-15)This brings up an interesting point because in order to be saved one must be "sanctified" from "all" sin. This hearkens back to section 76 where it speaks of all those Christ saves (everyone except the son's of perdition) being sanctified from all sin-
40 And this is the gospel, the glad tidings, which the voice out of the heavens bore record unto us—
41 That he came into the world, even Jesus, to be crucified for the world, and to bear the sins of the world, and to sanctify the world, and to cleanse it from all unrighteousness;
42 That through him all might be saved whom the Father had put into his power and made by him;
43 Who glorifies the Father, and saves all the works of his hands, except those sons of perdition who deny the Son after the Father has revealed him.The "world" spoken of here are his sheep- those the Father gave to him to save. And what is their status at the end of Christ's work? Sanctified and cleansed from "all unrighteousness". Thus, their names are accounted in the book of the names of the sanctified as that is what they all are- sanctified. The only group left are those son's of perfition who are "filthy still" who Christ does not save and are cast out with the devil and his angels.
In verse 4 it speaks of those receiving "eternal life" which is the "glory of the Celestial kingdom". This hearkens back again to those Christ saves on his right hand who all receive eternal life while the wicked are cast out with the devil and his angels. All of those Christ saves (everyone except the son's of perdition) receive eternal life. Here-
27 And the righteous shall be gathered on my right hand unto eternal life; and the wicked on my left hand will I be ashamed to own before the Father;
28 Wherefore I will say unto them—Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels. (D&C 29:27-28)In verse 5 we are told that glory is the Church of the Firstborn. During the millennium Christ will instruct the 144,000 to go out and ferret out all those to be saved to bring them to the Church of the Firstborn. This membership are Christ's sheep- those he saves. One must be born again through Christ in order to be saved. Consequently, those who do so become members of the Church of the Firstborn.-
22 And all those who are begotten through me are partakers of the glory of the same, and are the church of the Firstborn. (D&C 93:22)
So, with this preface in mind (and you are free to question this analysis) let's get started.
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6 minutes ago, MarginOfError said:
Oh, the horror of trying to understand ancient documents in the context of which they were written!
We do have modern scriptures that state Adam and Eve we're literal and we're the first humans.
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2 hours ago, MarginOfError said:
The endowment ceremony is, at best, ambiguous on the point. Within the ceremony, Adam and Eve are portrayed as both distinct individuals alone on the earth, as well as a collective being assaulted by the teachings of men.
Beyond that, there's a very plausible argument to be made that Moses himself didn't consider Adam to be a single individual, as the word Adam translates to the collective mankind.
That there existed a man and a woman that had reached a phase of cognitive function that God was ready to assign them the task of first prophets/teachers/whatever is completely believable.
That there existed a man and a woman that are genetic ancestors to every human being is less likely, but not completely out of the question (Heck, most human beings are genetic ancestors of Genghis Khan).
That there existed a man and a woman that are genetic ancestors to every human being and had reached the phase of cognitive function that God was ready to assign them the task of first prophet/teacher/whatever strains credibility (at least for me). And that both of those conditions are met only 6,000 - 7,000 years ago strikes me as, well, NUH-UHHHHH.
(I will concede that "fictional" characters is an overstatement, but will also note that that particular descriptor originated from Rob. I'm perfectly content to write that off as one of his strawmen)
Your beliefs are rooted entirely in secularism. You do know that, correct?
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I think the saddest stories I hear from LDS is when they start talking Adam and Eve as allegorical fictional characters. What a travesty!
- unixknight, person0, mrmarklin and 1 other
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Yeah, so we have facial hair, it grows there, what's the big deal? Another cultural (non doctrine) item that in time will pass.
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1 hour ago, The Folk Prophet said:
Why thank you. I am a stalwart defender of the faith, the church, the gospel, and a faithful servant of God who, unfortunately, oft times ends up butting heads with those who would promote falsehoods -- finding it difficult to let contamination fester unchecked. Absolutely correct. It's nice of you to notice. I put a lot of effort into standing for truth and it's refreshing to see that some people realize this and note my efforts to contribute to the well being of the gospel. Yes, I do get a wee bit...sarcastic...sometimes...and sometimes I probably don't let things go that I really should. But golly gee willikers, it's nice to see that some people understand my true character as a dedicated -- albeit admittedly imperfect -- true disciple of Christ.
Shucks.
And one who defames others let's not forget.
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14 minutes ago, askandanswer said:
This idea, to me, seems to have some similarities with this idea that we have been warned against in the Book of Mormon
8 And there shall also be many which shall say: Eat, drink, and be merry; nevertheless, fear God—he will justify in committing a little sin; yea, lie a little, take the advantage of one because of his words, dig a pit for thy neighbor; there is no harm in this; and do all these things, for tomorrow we die; and if it so be that we are guilty, God will beat us with a few stripes, and at last we shall be saved in the kingdom of God.
(Book of Mormon | 2 Nephi 28:8)
I decided not to include the following verse, as to do so would seem a little judgemental, but it might be worth looking it up.
This idea that all will be saved also seems to be similar to what Nehor taught, as recorded in Alma 1
And he also testified unto the people that all mankind should be saved at the last day, and that they need not fear nor tremble, but that they might lift up their heads and rejoice; for the Lord had created all men, and had also redeemed all men; and, in the end, all men should have eternal life.
(Book of Mormon | Alma 1:4)
These two verses alone seem to be sufficient reason to be cautious about the idea that all will eventually be saved.
I'm not teaching that at all, actually the opposite. This is what I teach-in the gospel of Jesus Christ
"26 But, behold, verily I say unto you, before the earth shall pass away, Michael, mine archangel, shall sound his trump, and then shall all the dead awake, for their graves shall be opened, and they shall come forth—yea, even all.
27 And the righteous shall be gathered on my right hand unto eternal life; and the wicked on my left hand will I be ashamed to own before the Father;
28 Wherefore I will say unto them—Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels."Doesn't sound like all will be saved, just the righteous, that's what I teach. And what do the saved all receive? Eternal life. That's the gospel of Jesus Christ.
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2 minutes ago, wenglund said:
It would behoove you to have figured that out before preaching contrary to church leaders.
Here is a hint: in addition to the Holy Spirit, context is critical, as is also awareness of multiple connotations and layers of meaning, types and shadows, figurative vs. literal, etc. You know, basic principles of reading comprehension.
It is also quite useful to, as this weeks "Come Follow Me" lesson intimates: have a ready mind (Acts 17:11) cultivated for growth (Mt 13:1-29), or in other words be humble (teachable) and rightly defer to God's chosen servants.
If you believe you are already there, then you have some serious introspection and external feedback issues.
Like TFP, I won't discuss the temple things here with you or anyone else. And, besides, your question doesn't make sense to me.
Thanks, -Wade Englund-
In the temple prep manual it says-
"Explain that in the temple, we learn more about Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ, and we are able to grow closer to Them. We learn about Their plan for us, which is referred to in the scriptures by various titles, such as the plan of redemption or plan of salvation."
"In the Temple We Are Taught the Plan of Salvation
Explain that as part of the temple endowment, the plan of salvation is taught""Emphasize that the temple provides us with knowledge about this plan, knowledge that brings great blessings into our lives."
And so I ask, if the gospel is revealed line upon line, precept upon precept, and the temple endowment thus represents the most up to date definitions we have on the plan of salvation, why is it that in that plan, in the temple, the only destination for us is the Celestial kingdom? Don't you find it interesting that the specific wording, over and over again, in the endowment shows a progression through the kingdoms rather than assignment eternally to one of them? Is the temple endowment not the real plan of salvation?
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24 minutes ago, wenglund said:
At the risk of getting caught in an endless and counterproductive loop of days past, there are kingdoms on earth and kingdoms in heaven, kingdoms of mortality and kingdoms of immortality. temporal kingdoms and eternal kingdoms.
Conflating the two sets of kingdoms will cause confusion and may lead to espousal of beliefs in opposition to divinely chosen church leaders. Sound familiar?
Questions like, "Do we live in the telestial kingdom?" lend themselves to conflation, not only because they fail to differentiate between the two, but also because, to the mind of most members, the phrase "telestial kingdom" is rightly understood as referring to the heavenly and immortal and eternal kingdom rather than the esoteric meaning of earthly and mortal and temporal kingdom. In that regard, TFP is correct about you being incorrect, your quote from Elder Holland notwithstanding.
To avoid conflation in the future, the question needs to be qualified something along the lines of: "Are we in a mortal and temporal, earthly telestial kingdom as differentiated from an immortal and eternal, heavenly telestial kingdom?"
I understand that doing so may work at cross purposes when pitching your Protestant and church-leader-defying beliefs about the after-life, but intellectual honesty demand it.
Thanks, -Wade Englund-
So, how is one to decipher temple teachings which use the same wording to describe our earth as the Telestial kingdom/Telestial world? Is it not true the endowment is the "full" plan of salvation laid out? Certainly the "full" plan would expound upon the three kingdoms, right? So then, why is there only one place where salvation is granted in the "full" plan as taught in the temple?
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6 minutes ago, estradling75 said:
Indeed... we read in D&C 130: 2 And that same sociality which exists among us here will exist among us there, only it will be coupled with eternal glory, which glory we do not now enjoy.
We do not have an Eternal Glory now per the D&C...Most understandings of the Degrees of Glory... well require some Glory. Could we be in Telestial world without Telestial Glory right now? Sure why not. But to be the Telestial Kingdom we need a Telestial Glory as most people would understand and use the term.
Does the earth not abide a telestial glory- the glory of the Holy Ghost? At the beginning of the millennium it will be quickened to a higher glory as stated in scripture. The glory of the resurrected Jesus Christ. At the end of the millennium it will be quickened to a higher glory, even the presence of the Father. At that point it will be quickened to Celestial glory.
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6 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:
Punctuation matters.
Maybe you should try and get into a situation where you have the opportunity to review the text (meaning inside the temple).
Elder Holland is intelligent enough to understand what the word "represents" means and assumes that everyone else is capable of understanding the implication.
I will not discuss the temple ordinances with you any more. We have been specifically asked not to do this.
For the record, the telestial world room is common knowledge made to a person going through in a temple open house.
I didn't see where Elder Holland said "represents". He specifically said we are in the telestial kingdom. So, I am no wrong.
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Well, we did see changes just this week to some of the dialogue in the temple endowment.
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15 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:
You can resort to accusations and telling me how I'm not following Christ all you want. I know who I follow and I know why I defend what I defend. I know what you teach, what you preach, what you've said, and where you're trying to lead people. I am not deceived by this wide eyed innocence act as if you're being attacked unfairly and out and nowhere and no one else here is deceived or confused by the matter either. They know where you stand, and they know where I stand.
Go back and read through this entire post. In fact I invite all to go back and read all the posts back and forth between us. You have attacked and defamed my character on no less than three separate accounts starting on the first page. The evidence speaks for itself. You have a record of this defamation against me over and over again. We all know what character you have.
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14 minutes ago, estradling75 said:
You evade the simple point that Rob Osborn is not the prophet and he is not the Holy Spirit. Therefore Rob Osborn is not a source of truth and light. Where Rob Osborn contradicts what the Lord's appointed leaders say on a subject he is to be rejected. I see no point in going through this once again... Good bye
I spent some time responding a few posts back. I thought we shared a lot in common. I thought perhaps we thought a lot the same. Did you even read my post talking about Joseph Smith and how he spoke about therungs of a ladder, ascending kingdoms, the endowment,etc?
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1 hour ago, Fether said:
I’ve always said that any failure in the home teaching/ministering is a failing in the individual and not the organization. I still believe this. Any lack of genuinity(?) is on the one not putting forth the genuinity(?). Ether from a lack of care or from struggling to relate (this being more likely in my opinion).
But I do agree that ministering is done best when the two parties already know each other and are friends. I have 3 “families”. One is a close friend of mine who I play basketball with every week, another is an inactive member that I enjoy going over to visit, and the 3rd is a family older than mine that enjoys babysitting my son. Because I know these people so well there is not much difficulty in me failing to fulfill my calling.
I think assignments are great, it prevents anyone from being forgotten (at least in theory). Until we all become perfect saints, I would be sad to see assignments go, mostly because I imagine only a handful of members in my ward would reach out to the many innactive... but perhaps that is a better situation than just assuming those assigned to the inactive are fulfilling their calling.
I agree that it would be sad to see them go. I do think we could do a better job of figuring out assignments. That said, eventually I see the Lord doing away with a structured ministering assignment program.
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45 minutes ago, estradling75 said:
You can believe what you wish to believe...that is always your right. Your claims that you know the truth that the prophets and church is wrong is where you are wrong, in error, and rejected soundly... Which we have told you repeatedly. Which you have repeatedly ignored
Is this statement wrong-
We live in the Telestial kingdom.
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12 minutes ago, estradling75 said:
And here you go yet again.
I will repeat what I said the last time you claimed the prophets are in error and your interpretation is correct. You are entitled to your interpretation. But those that have diligently studied the scriptures and have a testimony of the current prophets will know it is their solemn and sacred duty to reject your claims. Our duty is to follow the Spirit of Revelation and the Prophet of God.. Not Rob Osborn.. And since it is clear you do not get this nor have you ever gotten this in the years you have been making the claims I see no reason to continue in this thread
I'm only putting together what prophets have revealed. How is that in error? If I go to the temple prep class and they teach me that the endowment is the plan of salvation and then I go to the temple for my endowment and it explains there that we are now in the telestial kingdom and so I believe it am I in error?
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I've been thinking a lot about this over the last few months. The new ministering assignments we have and how we envision it and ultimately how the Lord visions it interests me. I have long felt that ultimately, the Lord wants us to minister to all as we are moved upon by the Holy Ghost and as circumstance evolves. I have felt for a time that ministering assignments (and also the old home and visiting teaching,) seem somewhat forced and not genuine. It feels like I'm not really connected or connecting with my ministering assignments. In the church we are so gocused on numbers. And yet, I think the Lord sees things much different. As moved upon by both circumstance and the Holy Ghost I find I am spending more time ministering to others not in my ward. Even in my ward, those I spend more time ministering to are not my ministering assignments. Certainly the Lord would prompt the ministering brothers and sisters assigned and not me? I don't believe so. And it may be a case of seeing through a dark glass. It seems that ideally we would minister to those we live closest to, are more connected or aquainted with etc. It seems like it never fails in ward council when we are discussing a family or individual that someone besides the ministering brother or sister assigned to that family or person knows more about the situation. And I don't think it's a fault of a poor ministering assignment program so much as it just isn't how the Lord views ministering and moves upon others to minister to others.
I remember having a dream right after a ward boundary change and thinking that "well, these families are in another's stewardship now". And in the dream I was shown that just because they are not within the ward boundaries doesn't mean my stewardship over them is released for that is not how the Lord views things. I brushed it off and went about my business. Since then the Lord has made manifest on no less than three separate occasions that my stewardship with them remains. I have helped them fix a car, get a job, give blessings too, etc. In fact, I know the ministering brother assigned to be partners with them and they came to us for some knowledge and advice. In the family business we run we do a lot of service for others and I find it interesting that almost entirely the services we provide others doesn't come from a ministering assignment.
I'm not saying that our ministering program isn't inspired by the Lord, I'm suggesting that the Lord reveals unto us ministering opportunities and we somehow get caught up in not seeing those as important as our ministering assignments. We tend to look at numbers (and thankfully the new ministering program isn't numbers driven like the old) instead of the bigger picture. I think we could do a lot better in making ministering assignments also. We tend to view ward boundaries as those within our stewardship and those in our ministering assignments or callings strictly as our stewardship. The Lord however views things very differently. He doesn't have ward boundaries in mind so much, neither does he have ministering assignments in mind so much. As we view the Lord's workings we see all too often that boundaries and assignments don't apply so much in ministering to others. Perhaps in time we will move beyond "assignments" and "boundaries" in carrying out the Lord's work. It's kind of analogous to living the lower letter of the law such as the Law of Moses rather than living the intent of the law.
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4 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:
It's not defamation if it's true. You have spent the past year or so working hard to convince everyone that your scripture study has more value than theirs and that the prophets and apostles are wrong because their view of the scriptures do not align with yours.
Actually I abandoned the core thread. Maybe you missed it.
It was in response to this post by you:
...where you actually say we need to be open to everyone's personal revelation as if it's on par with the prophet. Despite the fact that this idea is deeply flawed in and of itself, the subtext, once again, is also quite plain from your posting history.
Regardless, whether true disciples are diligent in studying the scriptures or not is on point. Whether true disciples understand the scriptures or not is on point. Whether true disciples see the scriptures in the exact same way as other true disciples or not is on point. Whether the contributions of lay members to our understanding of scriptures has merit or not, and when and how to judge whether those things have merit or not is on point. When and why we reject lay member's views is on point.
The how of gaining truth is spot on point. The fact that I consider some of your ideas on how truth is to be gained flawed is on point.
It's defamation when it's not true and I can state factually you defamed my character. You do that a lot with me and frankly I'm kind of tired of it. It's not becoming of a disciple of Christ to constantly attack and defame others.
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And BTW, TFP, aren't you the one who wanted to stay on topic? Just saying...
Comparative repentance processes and outcomes
in LDS Gospel Discussion
Posted
Well, it's certainly debatable on what requirements it takes to become a son of perfition. Lots of opinions exist but in truth it's one of two things or a combination of the two. The first is a turning away altogether from Christ. One must not hold a high level of priesthood to become a son of perfition. The 1/3 host of heaven all chose to follow Satan and thus are son's of perfition. Pretty sure they didn't have the high levels of the priesthood. The second is committing the unpardonable sin. David committed the unpardonable sin. He shall not be forgiven.