Rob Osborn
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Posts posted by Rob Osborn
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39 minutes ago, Carborendum said:
Of course I did. What's that got to do with it? My point was that we didn't have a perfect family. And you agreed with the idea that no one did. But you're choosing to magnify this just so you can hold on to your opinion that I've shown to be pure sophistry.
Today's world? I think you underestimate just how old I am.
So, in other words almost everyone could have a gay person in their family and it's all the parents' fault? And if I sin in any way shape or form, if I have asperger's, if I suffer from depression, if I have violent tendencies... It's all my parents' fault.
I'm so glad I can blame it all on them. Thanks.
No, of course that's not what you said. But that really is the logical conclusion of what you said.
The belief that people in general are just "born that way" or have an opposite gendered spirit in the wrong body to me is pure nonsense. I say this in light of societies known problems with morality and family relationships. If we can imagine what the millennium will be like, I see it as a place where immorality doesnt exist and families are strong and together. Due to this fact, I do not see a society plagued by gender or sexual identity confusion like we have in this fallen world. We have steadily been getting more morally corrupt since the early part of the 20th century. As such, the traditional family is on the decline and marriage is also on the decline, divorce is rising, out of marriage sex is rising, children born and raised by single parents is rising. Sexually transmitted diseases are rising as is sexual promiscuity also. Pornography, which was almost nonexistant or very hard to come by a hundred years ago is rampant and pretty much shoved on us now. All of these factors have contributed to the myriads of problems in all aspects of society. You can trace every one of these problems down to the moral principle or lack thereof of each individual and its effect it has had on destroying the family. These very factors are indeed the very cause for the problems of sexual and gender identity orientation confusion and deviancy that now plague us.
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27 minutes ago, anatess2 said:
You are wrong.
In Catholicism, the path to perfection is through the Sacraments. There are 7 Sacraments - Baptism, Confirmation, Penance, Eucharist, Matrimony, Holy Orders, Last Rites.
A Catholic is expected to receive 6 out of the 7 for perfection. Matrimony and Holy Orders are mutually exclusive. Holy Orders ( what you call priests, bishops, etc.) take the vow of celibacy. Matrimony is between man and woman only. Therefore, if you are gay or lesbian and do not think you can succeed in Matrimony, you are encouraged to take the vow of celibacy and join the Holy Order. Therefore, there are many gay priests and lesbian nuns in the Catholic Church.
Homosexual conditioning in Catholic schools? Now you are just being silly.
The conditioning happens in all male schools where students are in seminary. The statistics have shown that there are more gay students and priests, etc, in Catholic schools than in the general population of the United States.
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2 hours ago, MormonGator said:
No it isn't. You are making things up and showing that you have some serious prejudices.
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1 hour ago, anatess2 said:
I second Carborendum on this.
I have a very strong family - clannish even - and very close. So close that I sometimes drag my husband and 2 kids to New Jersey to live with my cousins twice removed (which would make their kids and my kids cousins 3 times removed) for a few weeks. Guess what... we have a few gay and lesbian people in our clan. They are devout Catholics living under a devout Catholic household in a devout Catholic clan going to a Catholic School in a predominantly Catholic country. Yep. Gay. Against the teachings of the Catholic Church if acted upon.
I used to think you're not gay until you have sex with another guy or you get a boyfriend, etc. Like, if you don't act on it you're not gay, you're just effeminate. My husband's best friend - another one of those guys who grew up in a close strong devout Catholic family, attended Catholic Schools from K through a Bachelor's Degree in College in a predominantly Catholic country - made me realize my mistake when he told me that it is a struggle for him everyday to look at a guy and not desire to be with him so it is kinda silly to just brush that off as effeminate, especially since he has no desire to act/dress/talk/walk like a woman, he simply desires to be the man in a relationship with another man. Anyway, I went to school with him through 4 years of college and he was as manly man as any man so I didn't know he was gay until he told my husband about it.
We shouldnt even start down the Catholic road but it is a proven fact that Catholic males who grow up to become leaders (priests, bishops, etc) are more prone to be gay. I have a cousin who is gay who was studying to be a Catholic priest, went to Catholic school, etc. Between the combination of being away from his family, being around all males for several years in school, broken marriage home added with the known homosexual conditioning with Cathilic schools, it doesnt surprise me one bit. He is a great guy, I love him, etc. But he wasnt born that way.
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1 hour ago, Carborendum said:
WRONG. This is just what I was saying about my brother. We had a strong family. And he was a very obedient child. He was an eagle scout. He served a full mission. He got his undergrad at BYU. And he was gay.
Are you going to go the route that I must have missed something because it doesn't fit your view?
But didnt you state- " While my family had many issues that I certainly found disdainful,"? This is the part that continues to raise a red flag to me. I make this point because it is extremely difficult in todays world as parents to create an environment where children have the greatest chance. Parents who do not work hard everyday on their marriage in constant prayer, service, and humble actions to protect and improve their marriage will fail in many areas in creating that environment conducive for their childrens success in every area including their sexuality.
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5 minutes ago, Vort said:
Don't you think that might have more to do with (1) the societal mores of the time and (2) the specific individuals assigned to that period than with the righteousness and/or parenting techniques of the parents?
The reason why we wont have this problem in the millennium is because bad parenting, pornography, sexual deviancy will be done away with. It is that very reason we will be raising children with no gender or sexual identity problems at that time. Satan is bound during that time because of the righteousness of the saints on the earth.
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5 minutes ago, Carborendum said:
Now you're making more politically correct statements. And these ^^ I can't argue with.
What you said before about all those you're aware of grew up in morally disfunctional homes coupled with the statement "everyone's home is dysfunctional" essentially negates any meaning in your position. It's like saying "I've never seen any homosexual people who weren't human. Therefore, being human causes homosexuality."
You missed the point.
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4 minutes ago, MormonGator said:
It's also profoundly naive and incredibly insulting to think that parents with homosexual children were in some way spiritually or morally deficient in their abilities. Way off base. Not even close to the truth.
You left off the other half and that being the childs own moral compass. I sated that when you have "both" a good family upbringing coupled with a strong moral compass then you shall not deviate.
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Just now, Carborendum said:
So, you agree that your concern is unfounded.
We do know that during the millennium children will grow up without sin unto salvation. It is therefore possible to raise a family correctly without gender or sexual identity problems. The family experience/relationship is paramount to the correct gender and sexual development of children.
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Just now, MormonGator said:
Rob that's not fair to Carb. No family is perfect-and just because a family has problems here or there does not equal "red flags".
Every family has red flags, its just a matter of how many, or how frequent or severe those flags appear coupled with circumstances.
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Just now, Carborendum said:
You can count my brother as one. While my family had many issues that I certainly found disdainful, we had a traditional mother and father home. We had LDS values taught in our home.
But it was pretty apparent that he was gay from a somewhat young age. It's just that being gay wasn't a "thing" like it is today. So, the signs didn't become as obvious to the observer back in the day until much later in life.
The moment you said "While my family had many issues that I certainly found disdainful" it throws up flags immediately that opens the door for a member of that family to have gender and/or sexual identity problems.
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Also of interest, male homosexuality, transgenderism and pornography all go hand in hand. Im not saying that viewing pornography will make one gay, I am only saying there is a direct link of male sexual deviancy with viewing pornography. Pornography is a readily accepted part of the homosexual lifestyle.
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3 hours ago, lostinwater said:
No doubt there are such cases. What is frustrating to me is the assumption the two are unequivocally linked. And i interpret your and yjacket's statements as attempting to make that association - in the hopes of destroying the validity of my friend's feelings. i hope you will tell me i am wrong in that interpretation?
Not exactly knowing your friends situation I do know that there is a direct link with sexual identity and family association coupled with moral values. I have never seen or witnessed a person who has had sexual identity problems that have a strong moral lifestyle and are in traditional mother and father homes who are teaching and living according to godly principles. In saying that, every single person I know who currently has, or had sexual or gender identity problems has had a past or is currently in a situation of a bad moral lifestyle and a failed family situation in some element of decay.
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Sadly, I have watched people go from sure they are one sex, to questioning, to confusion, to exploratory, to acceotance of change, to changing their secual identity. The transformation took several years and in that process they went from godly believing saints to acceptance of immorality and a disbelief and hatred of religion and God. My personal belief in their transformation was a lack of a moral compass. They werent born that way as they now claim, thats for sure!
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6 hours ago, lostinwater said:
i would agree that the health of society is decreasing - though i think the sickness is as much from polarization as it is from incorrectness. There seems to be more thinly veiled hatred between all the factions now than ever - republican vs democrat, rich vs poor, christian vs muslim, mormon vs catholic, black vs white. Each person's version of the most important truths has become an altar on which we're willing to crucify the self-esteem of our neighbors.
i don't know - i get it that people can't just pretend the truth doesn't matter. But do we really think God's first question to us when we pass is going to be whether we believed the right things - or how many other people we convinced/manipulated into thinking as we did? i think it's going to be, "How did you treat your neighbor?" And, "What kind of person did the truth that you DID believe make you?" i mean, If the purpose of this life was to come down and learn truth, then why come at all? We already knew it.
i guess i like to think that i'm a Father O'Malley (Bells of St Mary's Movie) kind of person. i'm fine with bending the rules if it helps someone. No doubt though - even my behavior on this thread alone could be used as something that refutes the claim claim.
i'm very guilty in this regard, but why do we always focus on things that we're powerless to change? i mean, if i focused less on changing the world and more on loving the world, i think God would be in a much better place to orchestrate the changing of the world.
i am not really sure what i am trying to say here. Just perhaps that the things each faction identifies as the cause of the problem may really be just a symptom, assuming it's a problem at all. And that our campaigns to eliminate the symptom may be making the whole thing worse - like punching the guy with the flu in the fact to get his nose to stop running. i guess i see people observe transgender feelings, pass a judgment of brokenness, mortal sin, or mental illness on the person and then proceed to attempt to eliminate the feelings at ANY cost without even bothering to try and understand them first.
Actually, yes, this is a rant
- and is in no way directed at anyone - except perhaps myself.
I think I understand what you are saying. Thats why I say the problems we have in society are immorality and the breakdown of the family. We must stand firm in teaching the ills of not being morally pure. The family is our only strength. Being morally true is our only shield in the strength of the family. In truth, it is the family structure that is what enables our freedom as a people. The greatest harm in our society that threatens and destroys us is immoral practices such as viewing pornography. We must decry such, no tolerance for justification of it.
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1 hour ago, MormonGator said:
There are many, many more data points that determine quality of life and morals then those two things.
Well, if porongraphy viewing is up and marriage sustainability is down it can only mean that the moral quality of life is also down.
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11 minutes ago, MormonGator said:
Wrong. It's perspective.
You take the two things- pornography and marriage. The facts show that pornography viewing is accelerating and marriage is down. Those are actual facts, no perspective about it.
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18 minutes ago, MormonGator said:
In your opinion.
Its facts brother, its facts.
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1 hour ago, Mike said:
I wish there were a way to know if this is true. I find myself wondering if I should believe in the common sense that everybody for thousands of years has been saying it; or should I believe the common sense that indicates there are more "bad" people than there were a thousand years ago and correspondingly more "good" people to go along with them than there were a thousand years ago? I suppose we could both provide plenty of "small-sampling" data and "personal-anecdotal" evidence for either opinion. We could believe the prophets of doom in our own church(es) or we could believe the prophets of optimism in our own church(es).
Its true. Look around. Wickedness and moral decline is getting more prevailant.
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1 hour ago, MormonGator said:
Don't worry @Rob Osborn . With every generation (literally since the time of Christ) saying that one is bound to be right. It becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.But honestly, we are getting worse as a society, not better.
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49 minutes ago, Traveler said:
Perhaps I may be wrong but it often seems to me that in general everybody has faith and trust in empirical evidence that they will amend their understanding of something when there is empirical evidence. That is with two possible exceptions – religion and politics. But I would address what often seem to me to be to be a great paradox or enigma of faith within the religious community.
That many believe it to be a tenet of religious faith – that is to hold to a doctrine despite a preponderance of empirical evidence that what is understood of the doctrine is either not accurate or completely false. Many a religious person has expressed to me that they believe G-d is testing them. Is this possible – that G-d would deceive us as a means of testing us? Do we really believe a G-d of “TRUTH” does or would do such a thing?
For the record – I believe G-d to be good and truthful – IN ALL THINGS!!! I do not believe that G-d will or can lie and remain G-d. I also believe G-d to be the creator and architect of all things empirical. Since all empirical things are under his control – I believe that if empirical evidence contradicts doctrine. That either the doctrine is false – or we do not understand the doctrine correctly. There is one other possibility and that is that we are not observing correctly. But then there is another problem. That if we are not observing empirical things correctly why do we believe we understand spiritual things better?
I do not believe that the truth of science and the truth of religion has ever – in the entire history of the universe – contradicted or conflicted with each other. I do not believe a G-d of truth has ever created anything with the intent to deceive or even confuse us.
The Traveler
I agree that God does not lie or seek to deceive us. As for empirical evidence goes, its a subjective term that can at times mean just an idea or theory with no real proof. For instance- empirical proof that humans evolved from a lower order of species is in fact a deceitful statement. Empirical truth means that it has been proven by testing and observation. The theory of human evolution fails such criteria to be defined as "empirical" as it has never been observed and tested to show a human transforming from a lower species into a higher species.
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18 hours ago, MormonGator said:
I've noticed that every generation thinks they live in the end times and everything is as bad as it'll ever get. The automobile will lead to the end of of civilization! The telephone will lead to the end of civilization! The radio is the devils tool! The television will cause the end of society! The computer will doom us all!(I've seen people talk about how computers will doom us all...in online forums. Dead serious)
Things certainly are getting worse. The trend shows that immorality is increasing along with all the problems associated with it.
- and is in no way directed at anyone - except perhaps myself.
Gender Identification - NO HATE!
in LDS Gospel Discussion
Posted
https://www.google.com/amp/www.newsweek.com/what-wish-id-known-undergoing-transgender-surgery-470386%3Famp%3D1?client=ms-android-verizon