Rob Osborn
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Posts posted by Rob Osborn
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11 minutes ago, anatess2 said:
Once again, you're putting mortal limits on God.
How so? Did I not quote a scripture that stated specifically that even God has a reckoning of time?
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1 hour ago, Colirio said:
Rob, I would love to help you understand. But are you willing to accept what the scriptures, modern prophets, and the Savior has said about the matter?
Its pretty vague actually. We could quote prophet against prophet, scripture against scripture saying opposite things. It takes some understanding to make correct conclusions.
The conclusions show that God works in a linear fashion- he does A before B and C before D. It means God has a past where he has done things, he has a present where he does things presently and he has a future where things havent yet happened but which will come to pass. God is not outside this process of linear time. God does not, nor cannot exist in some reality where the past, present and future all literally exist at the same moment. That would be an oxymoron because there would be no cause and effect which would nullify having a past or future.
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19 minutes ago, anatess2 said:
God is "above" time.
Anyway, things are still having to "come to pass". But the deciding has been done.
Anyway... to understand this "above" time concept, we will need to reduce it to concepts we, humans, experience. We are 3-dimensional people. If we think of time as a 4th dimension - with horizontal plane as 1st and 2nd dimensions (x and y directions on a plane) and the vertical plane as a 3rd dimension - then we can understand that a 3-dimensional object such as humans cannot "see" the 4th dimension because they can only move forward on it, not go "above" it. But a 2-dimensional object (like a 2d drawing on the paper) cannot "see" the 3rd dimension - like see what's on the back of the paper - because they can only go on the paper plane, they can't go "above" the paper to see the back of it. But we can because we're 3d beings - we can flip the back of the paper to see what's written on it so we know the full story on the comic book whereas the 2d drawing only sees what's happening on their page and can't see the full story. Do you see? So, think of God as "above" time so that He can move forward and backward in time to see the beginning and end of the story laid out infront of him like a comic book whereas we're still having to wait for time to "come to pass" to know what happens next.
"Time" is, of course, what we call one eternal round. That's why the concept of infinity sets was an important discussion earlier. Infinity sets is how God progresses.
Time is measured and reckoned even to God.
4 In answer to the question—Is not the reckoning of God’s time, angel’s time, prophet’s time, and man’s time, according to the planet on which they reside?
5 I answer, Yes. But there are no angels who minister to this earth but those who do belong or have belonged to it. (D&C 130:4-5)We know that one thousand of our years are a day unto the lord God. God is not above time, he is part of it, what we call linear time. The scriptures speak of "time" in different senses. Here-
110 And so on, until the seventh angel shall sound his trump; and he shall stand forth upon the land and upon the sea, and swear in the name of him who sitteth upon the throne, that there shall be time no longer; and Satan shall be bound, that old serpent, who is called the devil, and shall not be loosed for the space of a thousand years. (D&C 88:110)
What does it mean when it says "there shall be time no longer" but then goes on to say during this period of no time "for the space of a thousand years"? This tells me that time means different things. It could mean "death" it could mean "temporal" it could mean how we reckon(the revolution), etc.
In the above case it shows that time has several meanings. But as for a linear time, it exists for all, none is outside of that, not even God.
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1 hour ago, Colirio said:
Rob, once again, both scriptures and prophets disagree with you. Likewise, the Savior's words to the prophets disagree with you.
"The Lord Himself said that He `knoweth all things, for all things are present' before Him. (D&C 38:2.) We read, too, that `all things are present with me, for I know them all.' (Moses 1:6.) Therefore, God's omniscience is not solely a function of prolonged and discerning familiarity with us-but of the stunning reality that the past and present and future are part of an `eternal now' with God! (Joseph Smith, History of the Church 4:597.)" (Neal A. Maxwell, All These Things Shall Give Thee Experience, pp. 7,8.)
"One of the most helpful-indeed, very necessary-parallel truths to be pondered when studying this powerful doctrine of foreordination is given in the revelation of the Lord to Moses in which the Lord says, `And all things are present with me, for I know them all' (Moses 1:6). God does not live in the dimension of time as do we. Moreover, since `all things are present with' God, his is not simply a predicting based solely upon the past. In ways which are not clear to us, he actually sees, rather than foresees,the future-because all things are, at once, present, before him!" (Neal A. Maxwell, "A More Determined Discipleship," Ensign, February 1979, p. 72.)
It may seem you have brilliant point about God making decisions and therefore must be limited in his knowledge. I am saying that you are placing limits on God based on limited, mortal understanding of agency as well as "time."
If all things are present before him, as if all time doesnt exist then God performs no work because its already all been done- weve already become Gods, our kids have become Gods, etc, etc forever and ever has already happened. God never creates worlds because its already been done, forever and ever. Yeah, thats all ridiculous!
"Time" as far as the sequence of events goes exists even for God. In order for God to perform work such as creating worlds and placing his children on those worlds has to be done in a sequencial order where God ecists in a present tense working which paves a future in front of him. Its that work he does that shapes his future as well as ours. The difference is that God doesnt age and die like we do.
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Utterly ridiculous!
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I applaud all those courageous women who will stand up tomorrow, go to work, and snub this ridiculous strike. Husbands and wives stand together, not against each other in conquering both professional and domestic duties. I have never taken a day off work to protest, I enjoy work, its a blessing whether I am cleaning a community used toilet or overseeing a project. It tires me to see the wedges get driven in deeper in this feminist agenda gender war.
- unixknight and Blackmarch
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1 minute ago, Traveler said:
Without the knowledge of a bicycle - you cannot argue that you have agency to ride your bike to the stork. You have no agency at all concerning any thing to which you lack knowledge. Plus - you may think you have the power to choose to ride your bicycle but if the bicycle developes a flat tire along the way - you no longer have the power or agency to ride that bicycle to the store - unless you have the knowledge of how to deal with that flat. My whole point is that without knowledge you have no real agency or will - even if you think (have faith) that you do - you are limited to the choices you can make by the knowledge you have. Faith is useless (false) unless it is based in that which is true - and I could add complete - you cannot exercize your will unless you have knowledge of that posibile choice. You cannot have faith without some knowledge. If something is not true then the knowledge you think you have (your faith) is no better than a lie and what agency you think you have is not real and you cannot exercize your will or choice concerning that which you lack knowledge of.
We could extend our discussion to faith verses knowledge but without knowledge will and agency is limited and bounded by what we do no know.
The Traveler
I tnink we need to understand semantics a bit more.
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37 minutes ago, anatess2 said:
Poofy clouds, heavenly harps... same thing. Mortal activities applied to eternal life. Problematic.
You think God just eternally sits on a throne and does nothing?
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4 minutes ago, anatess2 said:
It's always problematic to ascribe mortal activities to eternal life.
You think we all sit on poofy clouds playing heavenly harps?
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9 minutes ago, Traveler said:
Please explain the difference between perfect knowledge and knowledge. It seems to me one either has truth - meaning knowledge (perfect knowledge) or they lack some part or piece of knowledge. It is my understanding that incomplete knowledge is one of the very definations of a lie. How can one claim truth without perfect knowledge????? How can there be agency without truth????
The Traveler
Well, we must define words correctly, thats for sure.
Agency means- the capacity, condition, or state of acting or of exerting power.
The antonym of agency is "captive". Captive means- to be bound or under the control or actions of someone or something else.
When we are obedient we are free to act and continue to make choices relatively unbounded as long as it is lawful. Deciding if I want to ride my bike to the store or walk is an exercising of agency.
"Knowledge" are beliefs of things you know about. Whether one has what you would call a "perfect knowledge" or not, on any particular thing, does in no way destroy or limit his agency. There is a principle we call "faith" that comes into play with agency, decisions, etc. Faith is a belief in something we hope to be true or make true. It is on this principle that we act in almost everything we do. God himself is not excluded. Faith is an eternal principle that will never depart from us. We may come to have a knowledge of all things possible to be known but yet still need to exercise faith in those things, yet in the future, that are dependent on others agency, choices, etc.
Joseph Smith said: "Faith [is] the first principle in revealed religion, and the foundation of all righteousness." "Faith . . . is the first great governing principle which has power, dominion, and authority over all things; by it they exist, by it they are upheld, by it they are changed, or by it they remain, agreeable to the will of God. Without it there is no power, and without power there could be no creation nor existence!" (Lectures on Faith 1:1, 22-24.) -
2 hours ago, Traveler said:
I will bring up something again as well. My point is that it does not matter how complex or how many parameters or possibilities there are associated with any choice – if that choice is made without full 100% knowledge of the possibilities and consequences – then we do not have the power to choose but are at the mercy of what is unknown. If G-d or anyone does not know and understand every intricate detail how can it be argued that a choice (agency) and not an uninformed guess was made?
My point is that without complete knowledge of every intricate detail – one is a puppet and the only way to become free is with full and complete knowledge of every intricate detail. I purport that not only does G-d know ever intricate detail of our mortal life – so did we when we were in his presents! If we choice mortal life without knowing every intricate detail how can we say that we are free to choose and truly had agency?
The Traveler
We dont have to have a perfect knowledge of the future to make choices and exercise and retain agency. Power of choice and agency hinge off of us being able to control situations and cirumstances and deal accordingly with problems as they arise.
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2 hours ago, anatess2 said:
Probably is the operative word. Yes, God is eternally progressing. But, as far as our understanding of Choice, He is God. The decisions have been made. Perfection. That's why Jesus had to become mortal so He will become subjected to temptation which is the essence of choice.
Do you think that in heaven that God chooses which instrument he might play or which concert he may attend?
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53 minutes ago, anatess2 said:
Does God make decisions? Yes. He decided to be God. At that point, all the decision-making is done.
He probably makes more decisions than us.
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2 hours ago, Colirio said:
The scriptures disagree with you.
2 Nephi 9: 20 O how great the holiness of our God! For he knoweth all things, and there is not anything save he knows it.
Indeed, there is an entire section in the topical guide concerning God's omniscience.
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/tg/god-omniscience-of?lang=eng
Likewise, an entire section on God's foreknowledge of all things.
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/tg/god-foreknowledge-of?lang=eng
We kinda hashed over this previously but God only knows all that is possible to know. This gets back into agency and decision making.
I will bring it up again- Does God make decisions? If we say he does (I dont think anyone would disagree) then it means God chooses between alternate paths and each one of those choices leads down a path that paves the way in front of him. Now it may be true God can see a myriad of differing paths beforehand and where they may lead but he still makes a choice to choose one over others. To say otherwise would mean God does know every intricate detail and doesnt make any choice as its already exactly laid out in front of him and he can only do that which exactly is the one path scenerio playing a mere puppet to the path of destiny that he doesnt control.
The other aspect is that God cannot know an infinite amount of things in the future because one cannot possess anything other than a finite number of things at any given time as all things must be connected and thus all must be finite. That finite number may increase forever, but never will God possess atruely infinite amount of knowledge because that is impossible.
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2 hours ago, Blackmarch said:
Thats a lot of assumption on of a lot of variables. According to this logic god would be evil for creating anyone with ability to make choices, no matter how much foresight he has or has not.
No, its just simple logic.
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1 hour ago, Colirio said:
Even prophets, as mere mortals, have been able to see the future. In fact, they are prophets, SEERS, and revelators.
Some of the things they have seen were certain individuals and groups sinning and others performing righteous acts.
It stands to reason that if this power can be given to mortals, by God, then God has greater access to what will happen than we might realize.
These aren't educated guesses or even decisions based on experience. God has a sure knowledge of what will happen because all things past, present, and future are before him.
Here is a page that has several excellent quotes from an apostle of the Lord that describes the power better than I can.
But God cannot know everything. Why do the scriptures give two way options a lot of times when speaking of future events?
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46 minutes ago, mordorbund said:
Must a set, by definition, be bounded?
I don't think that's natural numbers. I think that's just the base 10 notation.
The natural counting numbers (1,2,3,4,5,6...) is just the symbol of base 10 notation. Its just the symbol we give to it to know where we are in the count of definable items.
Yes, a set must be bounded, otherwise it isnt a set. This is where set theory, in trying to deal with the concept of infinity, fails. A set includes "all" definable parts of a group. Infinity isnt a number nor a collection of sets of finite numbers. Infinity is mere language that states something is never complete- specifically, there is no "all" in infinity.
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3 minutes ago, anatess2 said:
Yes. That's why we disagree. Because for me, that point is not necessary. Whether God knows the final decision or God doesn't know that final decision, it doesn't take away from God. Whereas, you believe that unless they agree with you, then God must be evil. It's that unnecessary conclusion that I don't agree with. I'm ambivalent either way on whether God knows or doesn't know that Lucifer would be Satan when he gave him a spirit body.
Thats fine we disagree. My belief that God doesnt, nor can, know "everything" doesnt take away from the objective of wanting to become like him. I understand that others believe he must know literally "everything" and even still, others who are unsure what he does or doesnt know. The main point I believe, and I think we both agree, is that our free will is in no way predetermined.
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Just now, anatess2 said:
I agree 100% with everything except for the last sentence. The last sentence to me is not necessary.
The last sentence is what makes the point.
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1 minute ago, Traveler said:
The problem is - how could we make a choice without knowing in advance what the outcome would be??? If we do not know the outcome - the choice is like choosing door number 1, 2 or 3 without knowing what is behind the door. It is not a choice it is a guess. That is not justice.
The outcome is the choice.
The Traveler
God told us what our choices would lead to. Some chose to be obedient and some chose to be disobedient.
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2 minutes ago, Traveler said:
I am 100% sure that is the case. I am very sure that G-d does not start or even plan anything without knowing the outcome. It is exactly why I have faith in his "Plan of Salvation" - because I am sure he, without question, knows 100% what the outcome will be. Where I personally disagree with many religious thinkers - I believe that we knew what G-d knew before we made our decision to become mortal.
The Traveler
So, you believe that before Lucifer was created that God would plan and create a spirit child, name him Lucifer, raise him up to become a good spirit, then become prideful, fall and become perdition?
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God created all of us under the same rules and principles in hopes that all would become like him. But, it is up to each one of us to choose if we want that or not. God does his part to give us the best possible opportunity to choose him but it still comes down to our own choice if we want that or not. Its that ultimate decision that God does not know from the beginning.
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Just now, Traveler said:
Then you admit that G-d, without question, made a mistake? Because he allowed Lucifer to have agency without knowing that it would turn out badly. In esence Satan is the fault of G-d - because it was G-d that did not know better??? That G-d started something without any clue it would turn out bad????? That G-d really did not think this through and thus really did not know what "HE" was doing?
The Traveler
I dont think we understand each other.
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1 hour ago, anatess2 said:
Right. So you're saying that God did not know that Lucifer would become evil. That is what @Traveler just said. "It is your belief that G-d never had a clue that Lucifer would choose badly until it was too late? That Lucifer's bad choices were 100% a surprise to G-d."
No, that is not what I am saying. God didnt know when he first created him how he would turn out. But, after time had passed and Lucifer began to exercise his agency then it became aware to God who he would become.
Can there be free will while God knows all things?
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Did not God create the world in seven days according to his own reckoning?