Rob Osborn

Here is another scripture to show the point- "7 And now, because of the covenant which ye have made ye shall be called the children of Christ, his sons, and his daughters; for behold, this day he hath spiritually begotten you; for ye say that your hearts are changed through faith on his name; therefore, ye are born of him and have become his sons and his daughters. 8 And under this head ye are made free, and there is no other head whereby ye can be made free. There is no other name given whereby salvation cometh; therefore, I would that ye should take upon you the name of Christ, all you that have entered into the covenant with God that ye should be obedient unto the end of your lives. 9 And it shall come to pass that whosoever doeth this shall be found at the right hand of God, for he shall know the name by which he is called; for he shall be called by the name of Christ. 10 And now it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall not take upon him the name of Christ must be called by some other name; therefore, he findeth himself on the left hand of God." (Mosiah 5:7-10) Compare withe D&C "22 And all those who are begotten through me are partakers of the glory of the same, and are the church of the Firstborn." (D&C 93:22) Compare with section 76- "54 They are they who are the church of the Firstborn" (vs.54 defing the celestial heirs) In order for all these scriptures to he in harmony, there can only be the celestial kingdom or outer darkness at judgment.

I have tried to show that the telestial and terrestrial worlds as shown in vision from section 76 cant possibly be a part of the "kingdom of heaven" after resurrection and judgement. I have tried to show that these two kingdoms cant exist at that point. The point here being that the scriptures, along with the temple endowment, almost exclusively, show that only the celestial kingdom/celestial world or outer darkness will exist at judgement. Our LDS doctrine however trys to shoehorn in the two lower kingdoms into the plan. But, in order to do so it has to redefine words like "damnation" and "kingdom of heaven" to make it fit. But, in so doing it just keeps compounding the problem and making more contradictions. Its a pileup effect that creates so many problems that entire volumes of scripture must be disregarded, thus it that has no answer. For instance, in order to make our current plan of salvation work, the entire dichotomy of heaven/hell as taught in the Book of Mormon must be disregarded. Scriptures like this one make no sense in our current plan- "25 And the Lord said unto me: Marvel not that all mankind, yea, men and women, all nations, kindreds, tongues and people, must be born again; yea, born of God, changed from their carnal and fallen state, to a state of righteousness, being redeemed of God, becoming his sons and daughters; 26 And thus they become new creatures; and unless they do this, they can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God. 27 I say unto you, unless this be the case, they must be cast off; and this I know, because I was like to be cast off." (Mosiah 27:25-27) In order to make that scripture work we have to redefine being "cast off" as something different than being cast into an eternal hell or perhaps the timung. In so doing, we then try to redefine the timing of this "cast off" event as happening before resurrection. It thus just keeps compounding problem upon problem. This scripture is either right or its wrong. If its right then there is only one means of salvation and that is to be born again into the kingdom of heaven becoming his sons and daughters. But, according to the D&C, all those begotten through Christ are celestial heirs. Thus you can see why the church doctrine elects to dusregard the Book of Mormon teaching almost entirely because it doesnt fit with the interpretation we believe in now.

Your answer here in such great vagueness is exactly the point of what I am saying. On one hand you say heaven must include filthy people but at the same time you also say it can only include clean people. Thats exactly my point and thus why it doesnt work and must be wrong.

I continue to dig. I found thus quote from a manual called "The plan of salvation" "Telestial kingdom. Those who continue in their sins and do not repent will receive a place in the telestial kingdom." "Those who choose not to repent but who are not sons of perdition will remain in spirit prison until the end of the Millennium, when they will be freed from hell and punishment and be resurrected to a telestial glory" (topics; hell)

Its important to note that the "Kingdom of Heaven", or "heaven" is used exclusively in the scriptures to mean the Celestial kingdom. Even though the church does define and acknowledge that the three kingdoms are part of that kingdom in some vague way they do indeed define the kingdom of heaven to mean the celestial almost exclusively. Whats really interesting is that all of Christs teachings regarding the subject in scripture refers to heaven in an exclusively singular sense. I found a few official quotes regarding how our church interprets "heaven"- "The kingdom of God on earth is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (D&C 65). The purpose of the Church is to prepare its members to live forever in the celestial kingdom or kingdom of heaven. However, the scriptures sometimes call the Church the kingdom of heaven, meaning that the Church is the kingdom of heaven on earth." (Guide to the scriptures; Kingdom of Heaven) "The term heaven has two basic meanings in the scriptures. (1) It is the place where God lives and the future home of the Saints" (Guide to the scriptures; Heaven) "These terms are used in various combinations and with varying meanings. Generally speaking, the kingdom of God on the earth is the Church. It is a preparation for the greater kingdom—the celestial or kingdom of heaven" (Bible Dictionary; Kingdom of Heaven or Kingdom of God)

Without repentance and baptism Christ has no power through his atonement to save one frim hell.

Baptism is the only means whereby we can be saved into heaven from hell eternally. The implication here is that through baptism we become cleansed from all sin, we take upon Christs name becoming his son or daughter. But we teach baptism is only for the celestial kingdom. I agree, but I also only believe only the celestial kingdom or outer darkness exists after judgment just as Revelations reveals.

So, show me the actual official doctrine where baptism is essential for telestial salvation. I bet you cant find it.

Our doctrine teaches the telestial do not repent and become baptised. Can you show me where in an official manual it says the telestial repent and are baptised?

I have brought this up before. Here it is again, this is the official church teaching quoted from the official church doctrine manual- "Also in the spirit prison are those who rejected the gospel after it was preached to them either on earth or in the spirit prison. These spirits suffer in a condition known as hell. They have removed themselves from the mercy of Jesus Christ, who said, “Behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent; but if they would not repent they must suffer even as I; which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit” (D&C 19:16–18). After suffering for their sins, they will be allowed, through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, to inherit the lowest degree of glory, which is the telestial kingdom." It must be understood that the only thing separating terrestrial from telestial beings is that the terrestrial eventualky accept the gospel in spirit prison and repent whereas the telestial do not.

I was one of the many critics of the likes of Dehlin, Kelly, Bill Reel, etc. It literally got me banned from most LDS blogs and forums. I am not on the apostate side. I just believe we have a basic misunderstanding of the plan of salvation.

Under the current teaching almost everyone is saved eventually, even the unrepentant. My understanding and opinion works better because it expounds upon the doctrine in the Book of Mormon where "everyone" must repent, be baptized to be saved. Does that answer your question?

Temples have rooms inside them and if you go to an open house on a new temple or to one that has been refurbished they will explain in the walkthrough the various rooms. Three of those rooms shown are the telestial room which they explain as the world we now live in room, the terrestrial room and the celestial room.

I agree.

What specific question? Lets start with that.

People are saying I need to go back and listen more carefully. I know I dont because I have listened very carefully over the years so there would be no mistake. Sure enough, it perfectly explains what I am saying. For me its not an argument because I know perfectly what it says and I am right. But it bothers me a little when others say I have it wrong. Trust me, I dont have it wrong. Its okay though, it took years of going for me to catch it too. I think it stems from the idea that we have preconceived notions or beliefs about heaven going into the temple and so we hear only what we want to hear. Its what really started me to try to understand heaven better.

So what we need to discuss then is proper definitions. Im fine with that.

I actually have that part of the endowment memorized. I pretty much said it perfectly word for word. So I know I am right, its not really an arguable point.

Im pretty 100% sure that the narrator explains that the room represents the telestial kingdom or the world which we now live in.

So why does our church teach that there are unrepentant whoremongers, liars, etc, that are saved from hell? I say this in light of the fact that the current church doctrine is that all those who were wicked but then repent in spirit prison before resurrection and judgment inherit terrestrial glory while those who choose not to repent in spirit prison before resurrection and judgment inherit telestial glory.

As I remember it states something along the lines of the narrator explaining that the room you are now in represents "the telestial kingdom", or "the world in which you now live". After that it is referred to as God instructing messengers to visit man in "the telestial world." Anyone who wants to walk through a temple open house before it is dedicated will be explained that.

A person must be completely cleansed from all sin in order to be saved. Section 19 describes eternal punishment for the unrepentant which befalls the sons of perdition. The suffering spoken of in the first few verses of section 19 is describing the type of suffering that befalls those who remain unrepentant after the millennium at judgment.

One is quickened or abides by the glory of the earth at its present state. The earth right now abides by or is quickened by telestial glory. So too are the righteous who abide by the laws, they enjoy telestial glory.

I have listened to the endowment a lot. It states very clear that this earth is the telestial kingdom. It uses those exact words in reference to our current earth.

Section 76 as presently taught contains obvious contradictions. I have spotted them and have come up with various ideas as to why its incorrect.