Rob Osborn

Cv75, Im not sure if there is anyone else who shares my exact opinions. As for your other question, there is no scripture that states man can be saved in the kingdom of heaven without repentance and baptism.

Well, we are here in the telestial kingdom and there were requirements to come here just as there will be requirements to go to the terrestrial kingdom in the millennium. The scriptures are quite clear that repentance and baptism are essential to be saved from hell eternally. All doctrine must fit that principle. So perhaps we do not undeestand what telestial and terrestrial law mean. I can assure you though that no man will be saved without strict obedience to repentance and baptism. I have always found it interesting that section 88 refers to "those of a celestial spirit" as defining them as future celestial heirs., then referring to the glory of their bodies by what glory they are quickened with. To me this is stating that those resurrected now are done so by telestial glory, those resurrected in the millennium by terrestrial glory and then at the end of the millennium the righteous will all be quickened to celestial glory.

Just so you dont get the wrong idea of me, I fully and completely stand by our beloved church leaders. I love them and listen to them and head their counsel. They are prophets of God! But, that knowledge in no way makes all of our doctrine we teach and believe in as absolute truth. Only those who repent and are baptized will be saved from eternal hell after resurrection. In time I am confident our doctrine concerning the plan of salvation will be clarified and we shall find that our heaven is the same heaven that the rest of Christianity teaches.

So you understand then. There isnt any scripture that teaches man can be saved to glory without repentance and baptism. So then why do we, as a church, teach that unrepentant whoremongers inheirt glory?

Thats about right

Everyone must repent both here and in the spirit world. Proxy work is done for everyone so that the books on earth agree with the books in heaven. No one attains to the celestial state from mortality. Even the temple shows that we do not go straight from the telestial room to the celestial room. We must go through the terrestrial room to enter the celestial. Interpreted, we go from mortality in the telestial world to being quickened to the terrestrial world (earth during millennium) to become perfected, or "spotless" during the 1000 years. Then are we qualified to enter into celestial glory.

Yes that is accurate. And, the scriptures support this position. For instance, we know that the earth after the millennium will become the celestial kingdom. In Revelations it speaks of the saved who dwell there while all the rest are in hell in the second death.

It says specifically that they have removed themselves from the mercy of Jesus Christ and that they do not repent. How can one be saved through the atonement if they refuse to repent? Again this just shows the flaw of the teaching.

Once we correctly understand that all must be born again, through baptism becoming His sons and daughters, we will then come to realize that the dichotomy of heaven/ hell as taught by the Book of Mormon, NT, PoGp, and D&C is spot on.

I am suggesting that section 76 is about being saved to celestial glory or being cast into eternal punishment in hell with the devil and his angels. This shows the straightness of the path that leads to the one and only salvation. Our current doctrine teaches it is possible to never accept the gospel and after suffering for ones own sins they can be redeemed from hell. Everything is wrong with that philisophy. Here is the exact teaching- "Also in the spirit prison are those who rejected the gospel after it was preached to them either on earth or in the spirit prison. These spirits suffer in a condition known as hell. They have removed themselves from the mercy of Jesus Christ, who said, “Behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent; but if they would not repent they must suffer even as I; which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit” (D&C 19:16–18). After suffering for their sins, they will be allowed, through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, to inherit the lowest degree of glory, which is the telestial kingdom." (Gospel Principles, ch. 41) This is a false teaching.

I should also mention that Joseph Smith mentioned that "Paul ascended into the third heavens, and he could understand the three principal rounds of Jacob’s ladder— the telestial, the terrestrial, and the celestial glories or kingdoms, where Paul saw and heard things which were not lawful for him to utter." The first rung according to the dream is the earth right now.

How so? It specifically states that the earth we now live on- "the lone and dreary world" is the telestial kingdom. We then are given instructions prior to entering the terrestrial kingdom where we then receive instructions prior to entering the celestial kingdom.

My view of section 76 is that Joseph Smith was wondering about there must be various places in heaven and was thus shown a vision. It is my belief that what was shown to him in vision was done so to help him understand how men can go from waging sinners to humble saints. It is hard for man to comprehend the reality of the requirements and end result of salvation from hell. Was the vision shown to Josrph Smith? Yes. Was the vision properly understood? No, it wasnt. A very careful reading shows this fact. The vision was or is supposed to show how in the end there will be a resurrection of the righteous to inherit celestial glory on the one hand and on the other a resurrection of the wicked who are sons of perdition who die the second death. The endowment which was revealed much later helps us better interpret the vision found in section 76. The endowment, according to official LDS teachings, states - "The temple ordinances encompass the whole plan of salvation, as taught from time to time by the leaders of the Church, and elucidate matters difficult of understanding. There is no warping or twisting in fitting the temple teachings into the great scheme of salvation." (Preparing to enter the Holy Temple). But, where does the telestial and terrestrial kingdoms fit in with the temple? In the endowment it is explained that the telestial and terrestrial kingdoms are in reality our own earth at different stages of progression before it is quickened to celestial glory. With this definition, in reading section 76, it thus makes proper sense that Joseph was not shown three separate worlds after resurrection but rather the same earth at different points in its progression. He just never made that connection. Let me ask you this- if the temple encompasses the whole plan of salvation then it should explain all three kingdoms shouldnt it? And yet it very much does, its just not what we teach outsude the temple.

I agree with this. As for proper authority, I do believe we have an overwhelming monopoly. As for the doctrine our church centers around and how we interpret it, we still have a lot of work to go towards finding the whole truth. We have changed a lot since Joseph Smiths Nauvoo period. In many ways, our church today in the way we worship and our particular beliefs and the church in Josephs day were almost two different churches. It shows to me that just like other churches, we stumble around somewhat in coming to the truth on matters.

The main returning argument seems to be if it is possible to remain unrepentant and without saving ordinances and still inherit a place in heaven. It seems as if the argument centers around what degree of cleanliness a person achieves vs. whether they cabe saved at all unless they are completely cleansed. My heavily scripture supported opinion is that a person must be cleaned from all sin through obedience to the gospel to be saved from an eternal hell after resurrection and judgment. It appears your position is something different. Is this assumption correct?

Too big for earths gravity? I have never heard that before. Elephants are the same size as a lot of dinosaurs. What about that?

1. Why is it that only the celestial are mentioned as coming forth in the resurrection of the just if we know the resurrection of the unjust are the sons of perdition? The contradiction here is that telestial heirs are said to come forth in the second or last resurrection which is the resurrection of the unjust meaning they are not justified through Christ to be saved from an eternal hell. How then can they be saved from hell? 2. Verses 40-43 describe the ones who Christ saves and makes all spotless which according to the verses is everyone but the sons of perdition. All these saved are made spotless through acceptance of the gospel according tothese verses. The contradiction here is that according to manuals, the telestial heirs never repent. How then can they be made spotless? 3.verses 50-70 describe the resurrection of the just. The contradiction here is that these verses, according to the BoM are the only ones who can be saved while those who fail these requirements must be cast into outerdarkness. 4. Verse 72 mentions one group of terrestrial heirs as being those who "died without law". The contradiction here is that the scriptures state that a person who does not have the law cannot be judged by the law and are instead made whole through the atonement. A handicapped person is but one such type of individual who has died without law. 5. Verse 73 mentions another group of terrestrial heirs who were taught the gospel in spirit prison and accepted. The contradiction here is if they accept the gospel and are completely cleansed and have entered into the same covenant of baptism and are born again becoming a son or daughter of Christ, how come they are denied the presence of the Father in his eternal kingdom? Have they not become the very same individual as you or I? 6. Verse 85 mentions a group who will not be redeemed until the last resurrection. Thecontradiction here is that the last resurrection is the resurrection of the damned and only befalls the sons of perdition. 7. Verse 88 mentions there will be ministering spirits that come from the terrestrial to minister to the telestial. The contradiction here is that there are only supposed to be resurrected immortals on the terrestrial world at that time not spirits. All are supposed to be resurrected at this point. 8. Verse 99 mentions a group who Paul addressed in the New Testament as fellow saints in Christ. The contradiction here is that Paul must have been a liar. 9. Verse 102 mentions a telestial group who is the only group not gathered with the members of the church of the firstborn and received intothe cloud. The glaring contradiction here is that there are only two groups here - the members of the church of the firsborn and those telestial who are not as mentioned. But, members of the church of the firstborn who are received into the cloud are only celestial heirs. This verse describes all the celestial heirs and the rest who are not gathered up who are telestial. So what about the terrestrial? 10. The most glaring contradiction of all is verse 103 which are described as all liars, whoremongers, etc. The contradiction here is that this group, as cross referenced are those who partake of the second death. The second death only happens after resurrection and judgment after the millennium. The spns of perdition are the only ones according to section 76 and other scripture who partake of the second death. So why are the sons of perdition mentioned as telestial beings?

Okay, so where in the Book of Mormon is it taught that all unrepentant liars sorcer, adulterers, whoremongers will receive salvation from the eternal hell?

Well, we put forth a greater effort to understand it from our perspective, but so do others from other relugions. I have read many a good sermon from other religious leaders of differing denominations that are spot on with every teaching in the Book of Mormon, and they dont even know it that we share the same doctrines on so many points. My beliefs regarding the plan of salvation is that we have most of the puzzle pieces but yet we have forced the pieces together wrong and thus have an incorrect picture. The Book of Mormon, which is supposed to be the keystone of our religion, has gotten set aside when it comes to discussions regarfing the plan of salvation. we currently have, in our church, at minimum three different plans of salvation that in some degree do not all agree with each other and often times contradicts itself overall. You have the plan of salvation as taught in the Book of Mormon and New Testament, then you have manual plan of salvation which is in a myriad of church manuals that draws heavily off of section 76, and last you have the plan of salvation that the endowment in the temple teaches. There is no truly valid argument that all three run congruent with each other and mesh together. The Book of Mormon plan of salvation best agrees with the temple endowment but then our manual plan, drawing off section 76, throws a monkey wrench into everything. The classic Book of Mormon plan of salvation is the classic Christianity doctrine as found in the New Testament that all other Christian religions believe in. Its a strict dichotomy of saved to heaven or damned to hell. The Book of Mormon, D&C and NT are replete with this dichotomy. But, we do not teach this, we teach the section 76 model. That model shows a three world salvation model where even the unrepentant are eventually saved from hell. My belief is that if we are truly receiving line upon line then the most recent revelation should trump any other doctrine. The endownent is thus our most recent doctrine as revealed. So, what does the temple teach? It teaches the expounded version of the Book of Mormon and NT strict dichotomy- saved in the kingdom of heaven or damned to hell. Nowhere in the endowment does it show salvation from an eternal hell until one reaches the veil and is admitted into the Celestial kingdom. The endowment clarifies that the telestial kingdom and terrestrial kingdom are not eternal kingdoms after resurrection and judgment but rather stages of our earth in its progression as we become qualified to achieve salvation in the celestial kingdom. D&C 138, revealed after the endowment, further clarifies this dichotomy and the essential requirements to be saved from hell eternally. Picking apart section 76, it becomes rather obvious that it is wholly misunderstood. There are no less than 10 basic contradictions that our current understanding of section 76 creates. But because its set in stone so steadfast, no one can see the glaring contradictions.

Who is to say that our understanding of the plan of salvation, as a church in general, is correct? Im actually of the belief that we dont undetstand it any better than most other Christian religions.

Its rather obvious that this doctrine is anything but clear and agreed upon amongst the saints.

Who really knows?

The Book of Mormon does not teach that repentance and acceptance of the gospel is available after death. The D&C however does indeed teach that repentance and acceptance of the gospel is available after death. If all we had was this short life to prepare for celestial exaltation pretty much all would fail as none become perfect through the atonement in this life. We must continue on in our progression in the next life before we can attain the perfection necessary for the Celestial kingdom. That is why we have paradise and spirit prison and also the millennium- so that we can attain or progress to the perfection required to inherit the kingdom of heaven.