Rob Osborn

We cant be sure of anything Satan says, he is a liar. The scriptures are clear that there was no death amongst any of the creations until after the fall. So, your argument is against scripture.

This is a common belief in the church and to me it shows just exactly how flawed our doctrine has become. I find it interesting that our church has pretty much looked the other way when it comes to what the Book of Mormon actually teaches about the plan of salvation.

Too many people dismiss the core doctrines. No death before the fall is one such core doctrine that is dismissed because it doesnt agree with science. But, the implication is paramount. If death was occuring before the fall of Adam and Eve then our entire doctrine of the fall is incorrect. Entire chapters in our manuals would thus be wrong.

Personally, I believe BRM's heresy #5 doctrine is flawed and he is perhaps wrong. Much of his opinions came to make up and add definition to church doctrine in our church that we still adhere to today. #5 heresy actually contradicts the endowment.

Core doctrines we must take literal. No death before the fall? Yes. Adam and Eve in a literal garden? Yes. A global flood? Yes. We certainly must remember that the very secular science that tells us these things are fairytails are the very same groups who say resurrection and immortality are also fairytails.

Be patient. Your husband will more than likely join the church of the firstborn, either here or in the next life and all will work out.

The endowment starts in the telestial room which symbolises 5he world we now live in. It is thus further explained that the world we now live in is the Telestial kingdom. From that room we progress or are admitted into the Terrestrial kingdom and then from there through the veil and admitted into the Celestial kingdom. That is the endowment as explained.

People will continue to receive as many opportunities to accept the gospel on earth and in the spirit prison up to some point in the millennium before final judgment. Read D&C 138. Progress between kingdoms? Thats exactly what we are doing right now. We are now in the Telestial kingdom and we will progress from this to the Terrestrial kingdom at the start of the millennium. Then, after the 1000 years are ended those found on the right hand of God will progress into the Celestial kingdom. This is the pattern and teaching of the temple endowment.

Yes. Its interesting that this is one of the only Mormon forums I havent been banned from. From reading the different posters it appears this forum is still controlled by conservative LDS (I dont mean "Republican" here but rather believers in old school traditional doctrinal beliefs) believers. You cant debate with liberal Mormon thinkers (its an oxymoron).

The hardest people to argue with are exiting, or already exiting Mormons. They know all the sides and classic rebuttals to all the controversial topics. They love a platform to speak from and an audience who worships them. I have learned the hard way that you cannot discuss or debate these folks. I came and started posting on this forum because it appears there are still quite a lot of conservative LDS posters here who want a rational discussion. I know of two blog and forum hubs popular in the mormon blogosphere that are turning liberal and have been taken over by the liberal exiting Mormons and they will ban you if you make points they cant argue with. The fight is no longer the non LDS but the fringe Mormons in our midst. its practically impossible to not fight on enemy grounds with these folks, you just say your piece, end dialogue with them and move on.

If there were a "gay gene" could it be argued that their is also an "adulterer gene", a "liar gene", a "thief gene", a "murder gene", etc?

Our sexual organs are to be used for both reproduction and to liven, uplift, and gratify/please the soul of ourselves and our spouse. The power of sex as it applies to binding two together is ordained of God. We were not made to be nonsensual creatures.

I find it utterly ridiculous that LDS would even question the Lords stance on homosexuality. With so many witnesses by prophets and apostles in these latter days against homosexuality, for one to deny such is to deny everything about our religion and beliefs.

True. Ironically, the mysteries of the gospel and of God are all principled or known by understanding the very small plain and simple things. Even something as simple as the phrase "he that overcometh" from the scriptures is a mystery but once understood is at its simplest of understanding. But, by understanding its depth, it reveals a whole new light on the gospel and the plan of salvation. Almost every repeated word and phrase in scripture is like that- you have your basic seminary answer that everyone has memorised, then you have the deeper understanding that unveils the mystery and a completely new understanding.

Until one understands the small parts of the gospel he cannot understand the mysteries.

Yes, whereas it is the gift of agency to choose the right, it also is the mechanism that rewards or damns us in eternity. Agency allows us our own decision making ability. But choices according to ones own will and pleasure do not justify nor define morality. How one chooses sexual orientation is not a green light to eternal life. We cannot justify the want of the flesh over commandments. The commandment is that man should leave his mother and father to find their own help meet and mulitply and fill the earth. Their lawful wedding unite them as "one flesh". This is the command for man to pair with a woman not for men to be with other men or women to find other women.

I can always tell the liberals on the internet forums, blogs, etc, when if I post something it gets censored or I get banned permanently. This is one of the few forums that hasnt censored me. I was beginning to think the Mormon blogosphere were all liberals!

I personally believe each one of us holds valuable puzzle pieces to all the mysteries and that if we are provided the correct place and time to discuss that a lot of mysteries could be known. I dont think God really keeps us from knowing any mysteries but that access to them requires working together in harmony and doing whats right. Access to mysteries comes through generous charity towards others.

My only point was to show someone elses view on Satan which I concur with.

Look, Im not going to get in a debate over the content of the website. I am a firm believer in our church and hold fast to modern prophets. My point was in showing someone elses point of view regarding Satan. Thats all. The Screwtape Letters by C.S. Lewis are in this same category of viewing someone elses views on Satan.

I never said it was scripture. I said it was an interesting read and had a few gems in it that I thought were true. Even Mark Twain wasnt a prophet yet had a few interesting gems himself.

The world that then was, was destroyed by the flood. Its thus irrelevent because the entire topography of the land was destroyed. The geology of the earth went under drastic changes. Nowhere in scripture does it define where Eden was.

I think Lucifer was disciplined to begin with but then sought for evilness. He got lazy and lustful for power, the same as all evil. A good read, although not scripture, speaks a lot of Lucifers fall. Its called "the new revelations". I will try to find the link.

Ever wonder why most prison gang members in maximum security prisons are content and unwilling to change in the face of such misery and captivity? The path to the darkside is fraught with such self deception that one becomes lost to truth they inflict on themselves. This is why Lucifer knew not the mind of God. He was sure he is right, but its all a lie. It just leads to captivity. The study of evil has led me to know that the temptations become greater and greater as one sinks deeper into darkness. Each new desire becomes more immoral while at the same time looks better to fulfill self grandeurism, lust and pride. The alure to this darkness becomes a deceitful trap that further entangles one into chains and captivity until agency is no longer available. An analogy of this is a drug addict who gets in so deep that at some point they not only are willing to sell themselves for the drug but also forfeit and endanger their own children. I have seen this firsthand where a close family member decided to forfeit their rights to marriage and children for one more high. Entire wars such as WW2 were fought over pride. So dark did the Nazi regime become that they were willing to trade their souls for the idealism of grandeur. Satan was made manifest in them. We need look no further than evil in the world to know Satan and his angels firsthand, they are the same. The question back to you is why do so many choose immorality, lust, and pride when true happiness in doing the right is so apparent and readily available? Perhaps it makes it easier to understand why so many chose to follow Satan to begin with.

Lets liken it to a mob. The deeper you get into the heirarchy of a mob the more lies and deceit you have. Everyone is being led on and lied to in some degree. Tgis in turn leads to more lies and deception and pretty soon everyones watching their own backs. Evil people really have one desire and its selfish control over another. They will thus use each other to get their own gains. Organized crime (like the Gadianton robbers) most closely resembles how Satan works. Even though a 1/3 the host of heaven followed Satan, they were all in turn part of the lies and deceit themselves, part of lies and deceit above and below them. I have had dreams about going to hell and seeing Satans kingdom. It most closely resembles gangs and organized crime rings. Thus, it makes perfect sense that the greatest evil spoken of in the BOM was the Gadianton robbers and their secret combinations. At various times they made up vastly large poulations. Thus it makes sense that such a large part joined Satan in the beginning- the promise of power over another and enslaving them was too tempting. That was a major drive of the Lamanites for most of their spoken existance.