lostinwater

Thank-you. However...... Please don't take offense. But, in the nicest way possible, i'll request again. If you want to discuss homosexuality, please start another thread. Attempts to associate feelings of conflict about the gender of one's body and spirit (not a sin) with physical expression of homosexuality (a sin) is invalid and below board. I welcome anyone - absolutely ANYONE - to provide one iota of biblical evidence stating that feelings of gender conflict are sinful, or even incorrect.

Thanks. Sorry i put words in your mouth. Disagree on the feelings of conflict indicating mental problems - but we've covered that ground already.

Thanks Carb. i'd suggest though that motivations are the things we should care about. i sort of think that there would be much less angst in this world if we focused as much on motivations as we did on actions. Rob/Carb - for the benefit of those lacking the context of the last 400 posts, i'll say that the actions you can't support are homosexuality and societal gender stereotype breakdown - not feelings of conflict between the gender of mortal body/spirit. Correct if needed.

Thanks Rob. Well, to be honest, i am not sure i could have told you the difference between empathy and sympathy before this discussion started. Your diligence in this regard is impressive. i've found though that what a person demands is not always what they really want. These people may demand societal acceptance because they feel like they are under attack. They tell someone how they feel, and someone tries to infer they are sinning or to get them to see a psychologist. i'm pretty sure if i shared a very tender and vulnerable part of myself, and someone declared me on a path to hell or a mental hospital without even listening to me, i'd come out of the corner fighting. If they listened and tried to understand and look at my feelings on a case by case basis, i doubt i'd be so militant towards them - or make so many demands. i genuinely believe that the transgender community, deep down, is this way. And i've never been able to change someone anyways. Whenever i try, i just make it worse. Jesus, though, can change people. The most i can do is help to provide the kind of loving environment in which Jesus can change someone. Not that i agree with your all your thoughts on body/spirit gender conflict - but just because we disagree doesn't mean we're enemies. i hope not at least - you are a wonderful person.

Thanks @yjacket Though i don't think people were saying that there is not good reason to believe homosexuality is a sin. It's just admiring the good in a person (or groups of people). Realizing that someone can still be good in tons of ways even when they do things that are sinful - surely, we are each more than the sins we commit. Sadly, i have personally see in myself how when i define someone by their flaws - and demand one thing be different before i acknowledge their goodness in any other way - or i bring up the sin over and over and over and over and over again, it just drives them further away from me. Do you agree? Now, i am only acknowledging that homosexual acts are not according to God's Law as i understand it - i find absolutely nothing in biblical teaching that condemns feelings of mortal body/spirit gender conflict. Though if you know of any, i'd love to hear them. Perhaps not all these feelings are based in reality (though i believe many are), and definitely many people with them make demands of society or do things to their body that make Jesus sad, but the feelings themselves - and the idea that mortal body/spirit gender may not be in sync in this life - i see absolutely nothing sinful or inherently inaccurate in them.

Thanks Rob. Valid point. i am not in the same frame of mind that these people are always wrong - but i definitely respect your beliefs. i think that is the point everyone was trying to make though. That these people should be treated compassionately - and that where possible, we try to understand someone's past before judging their current condition, and avoid making blanket statements - even if it seems to us like those statements might be generally accurate - and there seems to be plenty of circumstantial evidence/studies to support it. Honestly, i said something a while back in this thread - that loving one's neighbor was the most important thing - and @yjacket correctly pointed out that loving God was actually the most important thing. I lack some of the backbone that you do, and so even though i believe that statement is still basically accurate, backtracked on it - because it wasn't technically correct. Perhaps you are in a similar situation - and are just a more persistent person than me?

There is a great book called Just Mercy - written by a man who defended many of them as a lawyer. One of the greatest books i've ever read. Strongly recommend. Yes, i do have sympathy/empathy towards them. Not because they deserve it - because they need it. How grateful i am that Jesus gives all of us what we need, at least as much as we're willing/able to accept - and not what we deserve. If we all got the empathy and compassion we deserve, Jesus would never have come at all - and it wouldn't matter if you were a white liar or a serial killer - we'd all be headed to exactly the same place, guaranteed. And Rob - i really believe you do have compassion towards these people - porn stars, transgender, serial killers. We can argue the semantics of language (sympathy vs empathy) - but i'd bet dollars to pesos that if you saw a serial killer getting beaten, you'd try to stop it. If you saw them weak with hunger, you'd feed them. If you saw them weeping, you'd try to comfort them. You are a man of impeccable morals - or else you'd not feel prompted to defend what you've said so strongly.

Thank-you @anatess2 And to clarify - this is talking about earthly bodies. i'll certainly grant - if you have a non-intersex male body that believes itself to be a non-intersex female capable of having children - there is a problem in your thought pattern. i've never personally known a transgender person who has undergone the reassignment surgeries - but i don't think any of them are under this delusion - even after the surgery. And for the record, i generally agree with Doctor Carson on the rights issue. If it helped society - or even just the people with conflicted feelings -i'd be all for it. But i don't believe it does help. What would help is if people would evaluate people who have these feelings on a per-person basis - rather than absolute statements of condemnation based on limited information. My guess is there would be a much smaller push for the rights if they felt they had a middle ground between assignment to hell or a psychologist.

Thanks for the feedback. Sorry - but i guess i'm struggling to see the Charles Manson connection. Can you clarify? So to confirm, you believe the people in the study noted above are also delusional? that study is referring to people whose bodies exhibit physically apparent conflicts between male/female parts. i understand you think people like my friend are mentally ill (and i respect that, though i disagree), but to associate people with physically deformed bodies with mental delusion merely by nature of their bodies? i guess i'm just not following. No offense meant - just hoping to get some context.

Thank-you. But what about these people? http://www.isna.org/faq/frequency Probably, you are right in most cases. But to claim there is no basis for confusion seems incorrect to me. And it seems similarly incorrect to declare that just because we can't see something that the basis for it's existence is mental illness or willful mortal sin. Do you disagree? Is the only acceptable evidence that might justify a feeling of conflict it's visibility to us?

Thanks Rob. Curious - do you think there might be something we can't see that indicates ambiguity? Or is the only acceptable definition of ambiguity one that is visible to human sight? Thanks. Though why should one seek professional help for a correct interpretation of one's self? Doesn't this assume there is something in the Gospel - however you define that - that indicates it is wrong? If it does, can you please provide the biblical reference saying feelings that the gender of the body and the spirit are not in alignment is sinful? Please, keep homosexuality, cross-dressing, demanding unisex bathrooms, etc., - out of this. i am only referring to feelings of conflict about the gender of one's body and spirit - not to stereotypes we create about people who voice their transgender feelings.

This is the sad thing. People are reduced into groups - and then those groups are judged by their extremists. It's too much work to evaluate someone as a person - because it requires us to look beyond the easy, clear-cut biases we have about the groups we think they belong to. It's no coincidence that absolute statements and a lack of personal experience about something typically go hand in hand. Not in everything of course - but in an awful lot of them.

i hope spirits have gender. It would seem like we'd lose something if they didn't. To me at least The Mormon church certainly preaches that they do. Not sure how their not having gender would relate with the resurrection. To me, it just doesn't feel right that they wouldn't. i could be wrong of course. Yes, i did notice that about the church's statement. i certainly appreciate the difference in tone. i really do. It's very praiseworthy that they do not outright condemn a group of people who generally hate it - so passionately. i actually do not want to see gender-to-biological-sex norms disappear (what a huge part of the transgender community wants) nor does my friend. i don't think anyone would benefit. But i do think that total and unequivocal condemnation of every belief that body and spirit gender are out of sync in this life is incorrect. As others have said, to this point, no one has been able to provide any biblical refutation of the idea. The closest i've heard is that because it is not explicitly spoken to and approved of, we should assume it is evil. My hope is that we can separate the anger, and the attempt to break down societal norms, and the cross-dressing, and the homosexuality from feelings that the fallen body on this earth may not be a 100% accurate expression of the eternal spirit that is us. That's it.

@Anddenex - Apologies. i certainly could have read it closer. i actually can't find the comment at all now. i took what i assumed was the topic getting discussed and interjected. Hope no offense is taken.

Valid point. i guess it's just something i point to to refute the idea that there is no time when the body and the spirit conflict. Assuming we agree that there are not ambiguously gendered spirits - then a person classifying someone's feelings of conflict as being wrong becomes a 'i don't see it, so it doesn't exist' judgement call. i'm not saying that all people who have the feelings are correct in their interpretation of their correctness. But i'm also saying that to carte blanche classify them as sinful and wrong is also not right.

I'd keep in mind that according to mormon beliefs, a third of the heavenly family got sent to hell. That seems like a pretty dysfunctional family? i mean, what family isn't dysfunctional? I've yet to meet one.

Thank-you. Here is one example. Granted, my friend is not like this. But, someone who bases their conclusion that my friend is wrong on the idea that there is no ambiguity - that just isn't accurate. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19155947

Probably why my friend has chosen to remain unmarried and celibate. Is extremely confusing for them. i can't comment on every other person with transgender feelings - i don't know them, and don't feel i should pass judgment without talking to them and at least attempting to understand them first So that goes back to your question earlier regarding what makes up a female/male spirit. The best answer i can give is still the same. It feels to me like gender is an expression of who we are. In the same way an artist's art or a painter's painting is an outward expression of who they are on the inside. Please don't mistake - i am not saying that gender is fluid.

No doubt there are such cases. What is frustrating to me is the assumption the two are unequivocally linked. And i interpret your and yjacket's statements as attempting to make that association - in the hopes of destroying the validity of my friend's feelings. i hope you will tell me i am wrong in that interpretation?

Thank-you. Yes, i am quite sure. A female spirit is one that came into existence as female. A female spirit believing the body she inhabits does not match her spirit's gender is not equivalent to homosexuality.

Well, i had typed up some lengthy response that dodged the statement. But, the truth is, you are right that it is clearly more important to love God than to love one's neighbor. My response didn't reflect that. It stings my pride to say it - though i have to let things shape me if i am to improve. That said, please don't mistake my comment earlier for some indication that i really do think my friend is wrong, and that i'm now admitting it, and indicating my real basis for its justification. i remain fully convinced that my friend is correct and will one day be made right - and find nothing - as a follower of God - that indicates it is wrong. What i was ranting about is how every faction builds stone walls around their beliefs - even incorrect ones - and then throw sticks and sneers at everyone else's walls - without considering that we might all have something to teach one another. @yjacket - Thank-you. However, please don't bring homosexuality into this. That - along with destruction of traditional gender roles - has never been what this thread was about.

i would agree that the health of society is decreasing - though i think the sickness is as much from polarization as it is from incorrectness. There seems to be more thinly veiled hatred between all the factions now than ever - republican vs democrat, rich vs poor, christian vs muslim, mormon vs catholic, black vs white. Each person's version of the most important truths has become an altar on which we're willing to crucify the self-esteem of our neighbors. i don't know - i get it that people can't just pretend the truth doesn't matter. But do we really think God's first question to us when we pass is going to be whether we believed the right things - or how many other people we convinced/manipulated into thinking as we did? i think it's going to be, "How did you treat your neighbor?" And, "What kind of person did the truth that you DID believe make you?" i mean, If the purpose of this life was to come down and learn truth, then why come at all? We already knew it. i guess i like to think that i'm a Father O'Malley (Bells of St Mary's Movie) kind of person. i'm fine with bending the rules if it helps someone. No doubt though - even my behavior on this thread alone could be used as something that refutes the claim claim. i'm very guilty in this regard, but why do we always focus on things that we're powerless to change? i mean, if i focused less on changing the world and more on loving the world, i think God would be in a much better place to orchestrate the changing of the world. i am not really sure what i am trying to say here. Just perhaps that the things each faction identifies as the cause of the problem may really be just a symptom, assuming it's a problem at all. And that our campaigns to eliminate the symptom may be making the whole thing worse - like punching the guy with the flu in the fact to get his nose to stop running. i guess i see people observe transgender feelings, pass a judgment of brokenness, mortal sin, or mental illness on the person and then proceed to attempt to eliminate the feelings at ANY cost without even bothering to try and understand them first. Actually, yes, this is a rant - and is in no way directed at anyone - except perhaps myself.

Thank-you. No question who looked like a fool in that video. Though the argument was centered around his rejection of the idea that society dissolve their concepts of gender to satisfy the trans rights community. i realize many things are a function of perception - but from the very first, i've explicitly said that is not what i am advocating. i am so sorry and confused - that despite everything that has already been said - that you still insist that is what this post has ever been about.

Thank-you. Really do not mean to cause anyone pain. I probably come across as very flippant at times - but please realize that is not my intention. I actually do think that gender is very important and has a divine purpose. I guess what i don't necessarily agree with is the idea that the mortal body we know is fallen and corrupted will always be an accurate reflection of our eternal gender - any more than i feel that a cleft palate or down syndrome is something that will follow a person into the eternities. And when I hear of people like the ones described in this link (people who have experienced spontaneous pregnancies, as they have both sets of sex organs in their body), it reinforces my belief. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19155947 Do you feel that those people in this story are fabricated? And I respect if you do. Doesn't seem like they would be - but possible i guess. If not, what is the divine gender of these people? where do you draw the line between those who willfully disobey the proclamation you cite above - assuming they believe it (most are probably not members) - and those who are innocent? for me, it used to be all based on what i was able to perceive with my own eyes. But i have come to believe that just because someone's 'reflection' (ie gender) in a mirror appears clear to me - it does not 100% of the time mean that my assumptions as to the meaning of that reflection are accurate. Please don't mistake me here - there is no demand for societal transformation behind any of my statements - and that i think is what many people on this thread are probably correctly angered and frightened by. The only thing i chafe against is the unequivocal linkage of transgender feelings with mortal sin, mental illness, or both. Again - thank-you for your comment.

@Eydis - Thank-you for you detailed response. I apologize if I was not clear. When i talk about conflict, i am not referring to the conflict between our physical desires and our spiritual ones. i am referring to the conflict one senses when there is a difference between who we feel ourselves to be, and how we are made manifest in this earthly realm. When i say physical manifestation of the conflict, i mean that there are millions of bodies whose gender is not clear-cut. i guess i don't see how knowing that our body is not an accurate expression of who we are (and maintaining a hope that one day it will be) is equivalent to yielding to our carnal nature. or am i misinterpreting?