lostinwater

This probably is just because i've been fortunate enough not to have someone attack me in the way in which you have. But no, i think most people who do hurtful things do it out of ignorance, or just because being angry at someone else is the only way they know how to deal with their pain. But again, this is a relatively natural view of humanity to take, given that nothing particularly bad has happened to me. It sounds like you have not been so lucky. Well, that's very kind of you. Not sure i deserve it, though. We disagree on a lot, but no arguing that your intellect is top notch, and i am honored whenever you respond to one of my comments. Keeps me (perpetually) on my toes, for sure.

Thanks. Sure - lots of emotional pain built up over time, eventually getting so bad the person numbs it with a sense of anger and indignation towards someone else. Just my experience, but a lot of the malice in the world is just a negative feedback loop that nobody is willing to break. It deflates like a popped balloon when people lay down their swords. Though certainly, my experiences and the perceptions they create are not your experiences/perceptions. And i hope we can forgive one another for that. But the person/people who treated you that way were wrong to do so. And on their behalf, you have my wholly inadequate apologies.

Thanks. Good point. My guess is that both sides read malice in motive into the other side that isn't really there. That's one of the things i love about Fiddler on the Roof - you see the equally non-malicious yet equally broken hearts of both Chava and Tevye.

This clip seems particularly relevant. i think it shows the legitimate heartbreak and hopes of both sides. i hope everyone here has seen the movie already. If not, you really need to.

Thanks. Very good points. i accept most of the blame here for the confusion. i am not trying to reject God. i am just saying that i have a visceral reaction to the interpretation of God that (for me) oozes out of the Old Testament and out of the hard liners (usually the leadership) of many organized religions. And yes, this is just my perception, and hardly should be accepted as fact. i am not sure how guilty (assuming guilt needs to be assigned) someone is for a visceral reaction - or how productive it is to try and and use fear of severe consequences to grind away that visceral reaction. i have found that usually, fear just grinds it in deeper than it was before. Outside of that visceral reaction there is a still a complex mixture of hope (that said reaction is founded on warped assumptions) and apology for having it, and probably a few thousand other emotions all wound up and tangled together. And i don't know - i hope there is a middle ground between total self-interest and isolation, and ruling over more planets than there are sands in the sea. Like maybe mucking out the stall of my pony and trying to be nice to both my friends and those who aren't. i honestly don't see the draw towards the former - though i wish those who want it all the best. Maybe it will grow on me after a few billion years in heaven - but i doubt it.

@changed - i'm there with you. i have zero desire to be a God. Zero, zilch, nada. To have responsibility over such a huge number of souls that it would, at least on occasion, make sense to command whole swathes of them to be destroyed for the greater good. Someone who has to make such decisions has my sympathies - but i absolutely have no desire to have that kind of responsibility or power. My heaven would be to be a little child, with Jesus. i think Jesus takes this into account - He did say He was making a lot of different 'rooms' in heaven - at least that's my interpretation.

Thanks. Raised, yes. For the most part of my life. But mostly inactive now. i guess the church elicits entirely different feelings in me, though. Didn't always used to be that way. But when a life event caused my priorities to change, it became toxic for me (and the ward) to stay in a relationship where we were continually disappointing and disagreeing with one another. As far as God - i am forced to reconcile the God portrayed in the Old Testament with the Daddy that Jesus talks about. If it's the latter, no problem! As i write that, i realize i should place a higher value on Jesus' perception of God than the people who wrote the OT - but the former is so widespread in many religions, i don't always do that. it's always been extremely interesting to me how many people not only have few problems with acceptable the God of the Old Testament, but even seem to show something that feels (to me) like a subdued but anxious excitement that a same justice will eventually be applied to those who disagree with them. i'd personally find it surprising if many people signed up for one-on-one time with the God portrayed in the Old Testament - though i am only stating a personal preference and (perhaps false ) perception, here. i don't want to pretend that i can or am even attempting to speak for all people.

i understand where @changed is coming from. i'm pretty much there myself. God, as so many people portray Him, is not someone i'd enjoy going on a drive through the mountains with. i don't ever want to become so unknowable and immense and full of justice as many people say God is. Jesus thought He was a pretty stand up Guy though, so i ask for forgiveness for being afraid of Him, and hope He understands. i tend to think most people mold God into an emblem of indignation and fear to get others to do what they feel is necessary - with good intentions, but generally disastrous results (my opinion).

i know i am not expressing the opinion of most here. ' But i look back a few years ago and i realize i got so wrapped up in being in the right church i completely lost track of being good and kind. i mean, of course, it wasn't exclusive - but i think my goals were mixed up. Not to say that i have somehow met my goals any better now than when they were in a different order (i haven't - as everyone here knows), but the things i consider to be really important have shifted. i had become so vested in the idea of being right and defending my religious 'team' that my relationship with God and Jesus was almost destroyed when i found out that my 'team' was not as perfect as it heralded itself to be. When it didn't hold up to my entirely wildly unreasonable expectations of perfection - either in it's history or it's execution of it's intents. And honestly, i am not sure how legitimate it is when i blame the culture or the organization - at least, not in my moments of calmer and more reasoned thinking. i think the problem was my allowing a total lack of balance to be erased from my thought patterns. Certainly, healthy emotional balance is mostly not encouraged in the church (my opinion) - but one can hardly expect an organization focused on growth to encourage balance. i really try not to give my heart to someone or something other than Jesus Himself - even excluding my fellow mortals who assure me that, despite everything i know about our shared fallen nature, their words are equivalent to God Himself - and that any rejection by my conscience of even a single precept is an indication of a lack of faith. And please don't mistake what i am saying as some korihor-like intent to destroy someone else's faith in what they believe in. But is it really that unreasonable to offer up the idea that a worldview in which one's belief in God is shaken based on a metallurgical finding - or some other troubling precept in that CES book you mention - is perhaps a bit too extreme? i have friends who have become atheists for less. Just so tragic. i mean, maybe the real lesson of these (apparent) gaffes is to encourage us to let go of some of the absolutist thinking and refocus on the things that are harder (and in my opinion more valuable) - becoming good and kind and gentle - rather than being right. And realize that perhaps the full progression of the former is a potential in more than just our sect? and i hope you don't take this as a criticism of you. it isn't. if anything, it is a self-criticism sprinkled with my admittedly insignificant and still-in-progress perceptions.

i don't claim to fully understand the feelings of someone who has same-sex attraction, but i think this Pastor does a pretty good job of presenting a reasonably balanced view. It's worth a watch if you have the time.

i recommend reading CS Lewis' book "The Great Divorce". That's more or less the viewpoint i ascribe to - but it is just my opinion.

Thanks Carb. Good point. So i guess the value one assigns to any vetting process is a reflection of the degree to which the metrics (qualitative or quantitative) upon which that process is based can be agreed upon. For me, when i read/listen/watch a NDE, it's most definitely more of a qualitative exercise in the credence i assign to it. Some examples of things that i think tip the scales in a negative direction for me are ones where i sense a strong agenda of self-interest or self-promotion guiding the narrative. Seriously though, the paragraph above is just my ego-inflating way of saying what i assume to be understood on a forum of public debate - that ANY post from ANYONE here, myself included, reflects an opinion. My willingness to share that opinion and call it vetted reflects my qualitatively-formed perception that the person i am sharing it shares at least the majority of the metrics upon which it is based. Untangling the threads that make a perception like the one mentioned above is difficult indeed - especially if the person you are doing it in front of is looking for a good strong one to wrap around your neck . And let's be honest, you debate and reason at a level far above me - so this would not be difficult to do. It might be easier to just say you don't assign value to my vetting process and moving on, if that is the case. Got to say though, you are making me think more carefully about my words..... and for this and many other things, i am indebted to you.

Excellent question. i've thought of the 'valley' as the bitterness of dying, with tunnel as being the best (and yet entirely inadequate) word many people have available to them to describe an inexpressibly bright Light that 'pierces' something dark (or at least something not as bright and pure as the thing that pierces it). i've found this site to be a pretty good/vetted compilation of NDEs. They have a specific section on the reports many people have of a tunnel. It's intriguing to see at least how many different explanations/perceptions there are of it. https://www.near-death.com/science/research/tunnel.html If you are interested, some excellent (in my opinion) start-to-finish NDEs are below. For me at least, something that just feels 'right' about them that a lot of others lack. Amy Call https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9Y3WnsaejA Howard Storm https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0hhQrBdjGA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwOWYtXKV6g&t https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kaGgXw3qTv4&t Crystal McVea Her book, 'Waking Up In Heaven' is pretty good i think.

This is a great idea for a thread. i agree - sects tend to fixate on their differences. i wonder the reason sometimes. i sort of think it's some subconscious thread of thought within an organization that knows if it does not reinforce it's sense of separateness, it will cease to exist. Or it requires letting go of one's sense of identity - which is a frightening thing. But perhaps i am being a little too like Freud here. i think anymore that kindness and compassion are the things to focus on - and that bickering between the religions on finer points ends up defeating the whole purpose of religion in general - to bring us to God through Jesus - and make us kinder and more compassionate people. That the idea that a specific religion is an end unto itself. i personally don't believe that God and Jesus will ask us what religion we were part of when we get to heaven. They will want to know how many people we helped - and how much compassion there is inside of us. But, that's just my opinion.

This is true. Though in fairness, i think @Vort correctly surmised that i meant that sword to cut both ways. i think in general, the malice and intent we see in the actions of others is misplaced. No doubt i'm wrong on occasion, but i think is rare. And, i don't think there is any person on earth with "pure" malice - which is what people so often use to justify their hatred of another person. i've found that what we see as malice, when you begin to take it apart, is mostly just pain and hurt that's festered, but will clean up real well, if we're willing to treat others better than we think they deserve. And, @Vort is also right that i do not read the SL Tribune much. In other words, @Vort pretty much nailed it.

Thanks for posting this. Have read a lot about racism lately - mainly motivated by the overt racism reported in the news. Books like Between the World and Me, The Tears We Cannot Stop, The Hate u Give, Blood In The Water, White American Youth. The last being my favorite - but mainly because it's the only one where a person starts of feeling one way and then changes. i'd never been exposed to some of the perspectives in these books. i never knew people of Color felt the way that some of those books express - how they view people of the white race as (with varying levels of conscious intent) participating and supporting a system that oppresses them. And not all their points are something i can immediately discount. It really made me look inside and realize that i am not free from some of the more subtle feelings of racism. It's not an easy exercise to try and objectively separate the natural response one experiences when someone is racist towards you, and racism you would display even if they didn't dislike you to start with. i don't think either side is really good at this. The majority tells the minority to 'get over it' and discounts the overt display of racism by a few as an unfortunate, but extremely uncommon misnomer that no longer occurs in the mainstream, and the minority points to very subtle biases in various social systems, and the fact that the majority is the one who 'started it'. Until one or both sides begin to treat the other better than they deserve, the negative feedback loop will likely not only continue, but be amplified by time and stoked by satan. Though to try and be somewhat on topic to your post, my personal feeling is that the fact that the mormon church leadership is mostly white american males is an artifact of some of these subtle biases - and i don't think the church creates those biases - but that it does reflect them. But i am not operating under the self-imposed compulsion to believe that everything that comes out of the church leadership is divinely appointed (this is just my opinion). i also believe that the malicious intent ascribed by the writer of that SLTrib article to the church because of the fact that leadership is mostly white, american, and male, is misplaced. Most of us are just making decisions, criticizing decisions, and choosing the support todecisions of others in a way that we genuinely believe will make the world a better place. And when we hate or dislike others who do it in a way that is different from our own - or assume they do it intentionally to come after or persecute us - i think we cause more problems than we solve. And i'll bookend this response with an additional admission that this is merely my own opinion - and is, as always, worth much less than you paid for it.

Very sorry to hear that. Does not sound like a very reasonable response - but i don't know all the factors involved. Without knowing his reasons, based on what you've said, perhaps reach out to the stake president and see if something can be worked out. Also, can you please check your messages - the envelope at the top of the screen. i sent you one.

i am surprised your bishop will not provide you any means of assistance. i get them asking to pay tithing. But to let someone who pays their tithing go hungry or potentially homeless - just expecting that God will provide through 'someone else' when we have the means to prevent it. That just seems the exact opposite of what a person who believes in Jesus should try to do. Was any reasoning provided as to why they were unwilling to provide any financial assistance? Perhaps it was because this would disqualify you from the government support your already receive? At very least, i would think some meals could be organized, or a requisition to the bishop's storehouse be provided - ESPECIALLY if you are going out on a limb and paying any amount of tithing.

Beautiful capture.

Is just so pure. She has an album version of this also, but there is just so much more emotion in this performance.

My Dad likes Merle Haggard. My mom - as much as she won't admit it, i think likes some of the calmer songs of Elvis - which is ironic, given her temperament - though i suppose that's some of the magic of music - how what touches us comes from people who don't seem like us.

Now i know where you got your "Pure Potential In A Soiled White Shirt" profile info. Beyond that, enjoyed this song a lot. Thank-you.

Consistent with the feelings i hope this thread generates among us.

Perhaps this thread is replicated elsewhere, or off-topic, but in case not, would be interesting to hear people's favorite music - all time and just stuff you found recently that seems too good not to share with someone else. Please though, if you simply cannot contain your contempt for another person's musical preferences, consider starting another thread, saying nothing while taking deep breaths, share music you like better, or alerting a moderator to deal with content you feel is inappropriate. Not trying to impose my belief system as a limitation on a discussion - just trying to create a safe place where we can put aside our debating and arguments for a bit and appreciate/ better come to understand each other through music. Of course, some good-natured teasing understood to be such is fine.

i'm really sorry for the pain you are going through. My best advice is that you surround yourself with people who are truly concerned about your happiness, and then also pray to God (yourself, directly, unfiltered) with an earnest and open heart. The topics you raise have plenty of people (both sides) looking for one mascot to parade, and another to crucify - neither of which is healthy in my opinion. Just try and be honest and objective about which relationships are based on mutual respect and caring. And there is always the opportunity to change - as long as the will to change exists. That i think is a large part of what Jesus provides for us.