lostinwater

Agree. Can't sneer at someone's pace up a mountain without knowing what kind of pack they are hauling. i think we'll be surprised at what we find when all the pain and anger and horror and bravado are wiped away from our souls. The people who looked like failures may be the strongest ones of all - and the ones who looked like they had it all together may actually be whited sepulchers. Of course, it's also possible things will be close to what they appear to be.

Thank-you. You have to remember that i am not an active member. i just saw a post from someone who an expressed inner conflict i identified with, and attempted to interject my opinion on the matter. i actually respect your beliefs. i guess i understand why you don't reciprocate that, but it is sad. i am not sure a tone like the one you've expressed above towards people who don't agree with you accomplishes anything positive. i doubt i am going to change your mind, nor you mine, and mostly negative feelings are occurring, so i have to be done with this thread. i won't post again on it. But thank-you for the conversation - regardless of it's nature.

Thank-you. Sorry, can you elaborate? Isn't that statement predicated on your opinions of my beliefs?

Thank-you First, allow me to apologize if i put words in your mouth. i thought that was how you felt about the Mormon prophet(s). As to what we are discussing - i have rambled. My original intent was to convey the idea to the OP that perhaps much of what feels to her (and and many others) like the marginalization of women in church and religion in general may have it's roots in Biblical references - and that it is my belief that said references may be more a reflection of the time and the imperfect aspects of the person talking than the mind and will of God. And then it morphed into a discussion about prophets, who is a prophet, conscience, absolutism, etc., i will have to disagree on some of your statements about me - but i see where you are coming from (i lived on that side of the fence for a long time), and respect your passion.

Thank-you. Yep - i think you've hit upon the crux of the issue. We have fundamental differences here. You place unconditional faith in the man you believe to be a prophet. And this is fine. i do not share your view as to who is a prophet, and beyond that, i believe that prophets are still imperfect men - whose imperfection is, at least occasionally, reflected in the words they speak and write. i know people don't believe this, because i didn't get the answer they did, but i did ask. And i believe in the answer i got just as much as you believe in the one you got.

Thank-you again. i guess to me, it seems you are assuming that i would ignore anything i don't like. Granted, i am a extremely flawed person, but i would like to think i would ignore only what i cannot reconcile as being right - at least most of the time. There seems a big gap between 'don't like' and 'cannot reconcile as being right'. i cannot look into another person's conscience - and shouldn't pretend that i can - not even a Pharisee. But you are right - Jesus didn't have a lot of nice things to say to, or about, them - which sort of leads me to believe they fall more into the 'ignore because i don't like, or is inconvenient' category mentioned above. i get the feeling like they knew. The phrase 'convicted by their own consciences', i think shows up a few times in the Gospels. i'll readily concede your point that a prophet's words are only worth the heed we pay to them. But your statement i think makes some assumptions about what my conscience is based off of, and who you hold to be a prophet?

Thank-you. If i am correct in the classification of my conscience as the Light of Christ, and you are correct in your classification of who is and is not a prophet, there would be no inconsistency. But (and correct me if i'm wrong), your statement appears to infer inconsistency between the two, and that said inconsistency is the result of my faulty conscience. i'll grant that this is a distinct possibility - but hardly something established as a fact?

Thank-you. i certainly see what you are alluding to. Though honestly, anyone can call themselves a prophet. i don't think he ever claimed to be one. i hope the benchmark for speaking any true statement is a bit lower than that. i certainly could have done a better job clarifying that i do not see him as one, given the nature of this discussion - and to that end, i apologize.

Thank-you. i certainly tried to. Apologies if my answer may have seemed to dodge the question. Rephrased for clarity, i deal with people who say they are living prophets by evaluating everything they say against my own internal God-given compass. If it checks out, i try to implement. If it fails to check out, i try to further work it out in my mind/conscience, and ultimately discard if it still fails. If it still appears that i am dodging your question, what is it you are wanting me to say?

Thank-you for the civility. You know when you read something really profound you hadn't thought of before? Or you hear something that makes you uncomfortable, but deep down you know it's the right thing to do? i need a reaction like that now. Something isn't right automatically just because someone who says they say everything right says it. i hear lots of things i know i need to change that a part of me doesn't want to (and unfortunately don't act on all of them) - but the Light of Christ, conscience - whatever name you have for it - stamps it as acceptable. But like when i hear a Catholic tell me infants who aren't baptized are going to hell, or Jehovahs Witnesses say only 144,000 are saved, or hear someone try to explain how polygamy was ever right or ok or justifiable, or read about a woman needing to be subject and inherently obedient to her husband - that's the kind of stuff i feel i have to pass on.

Thank-you. i respect that. i guess for me, *everything* gets filtered through my own mind/conscience. i posted this once before already - but it seems too applicable not to do so again. By a man named George MacDonald. "Neither let thy cowardly conscience receive any word as light because another call it light, while it looks to thee dark. Say either the thing is not what it seems, or God never said or did it. But of all evils, to misinterpret what God does, and then say the thing, as interpreted, must be right because God does it, is of the devil. Do not try to believe anything that affects thee as darkness. Even if thou mistake and refuse something true thereby, thou wilt do less wrong to Christ by such a refusal than thou wouldst by accepting as His what thou canst see only as darkness."

Thank-you. Curious - what else do you feel we really have? Someone else's conscience that they insist is the truth (and may, or may not, be)?

Thanks. Yep, no disagreement there. For me though, God is not equivalent to the Mormon church. If they were, then there would be no errors, no mistakes, etc., - which of course there are. And why should i expect there won't be? People like me are involved, after all. i know this is a fundamental difference in the way i view things from most people on this forum, and readily admit it is only my opinion - being worth just about what you paid for it. i am not saying that God does not work with the church - i think He does. i think God works with everyone and everything. But i've grown very wary of someone who tells me to stifle my conscience because they speak for God. There's been an awfully lot of people who've said exactly the same thing over the past few thousand years. Sometimes, good results - but from everything i've read, that's the exception and not the rule. i apologize if i've taken this thread off it's topic. i guess my opinion/message to the OP is that not everything that is was meant to be, or will be that way long-term, and that struggling with something and coming to a conclusion people tell you isn't an acceptable conclusion doesn't mean you are necessarily wrong or a bad person.

Thanks Grunt. We definitely agree that any attempt by me to do that would be a complete disaster. However, it's my opinion that the idea that anyone who challenges an aspect of the Bible is automatically campaigning for it's replacement is inaccurate. It's far too common for people - myself included sadly - to conceals one's doubts (and so never deal with them) or muffle one's conscience when we view everything in absolute terms. Our society tends to encourage it, i think. It makes the world a simpler place to understand. @Lehite is expressing concerns many people feel. Not all of course, but many.

@Lehite i understand your concerns. To be honest, i think you will see the Church change their policies regarding this. To an extent they already are. But it takes time. They move slowly, especially in matters like these. My suspicion is that at some point, there will be a statement similar to blacks getting the priesthood, except it will be women getting the priesthood, and then the changes will take place very quickly. Sadly, i believe there is a Biblical basis for the perceived 'inferiority' of women. Some mentions of equality too, of course, but a lot of references to the woman being subject to the man. And a lot of organizations have latched onto that and designed their organizations accordingly. And most certainly, the world at large seems to function this way also. Personally, i don't agree with these references in the Bible, and i tend to think this is more a result of the biases of people who wrote the Bible (Similar to Paul's talk on slavery), than because there is truth to it, though i am sure i will take some guff about this. Just be patient and try to be compassionate when you feel your concerns are trivialized. By expressing them civilly, i think you help bring about the change you seek. We are all doing the best we can - but neither people, nor the organizations they run will be perfect in this life. Nor is it fair or healthy for us to expect them to be. In the meantime, know that how you're treated never has, and never should, control how you see yourself -or how God sees you. You are plenty good enough and equal in the eyes of God to anyone else - including and especially any man.

@Scott You sound like a wonderful person. I relate to so much of what you express. Trying and trying and feeling nothing. People telling you to ask, and then insisting that the only proof you've asked right or long enough is that you come to the same conclusion they came to. And until you do, you should continue to ask. All I'm going to say is that I believe that burying your doubts is unhealthy spiritually - just like burying feelings is unhealthy emotionally. It might draw some applause, but in my view, that does not make it any better for you. Eventually, I stopped. I stopped insisting to myself that something that feels wrong is right just because someone else told me it was. Stopped believing that I was bad and lacking faith for feeling things were wrong. I stopped trying to explain away my feelings with mental acrobatics. I know some people who can stay in the Church and come to a fragile truce with their doubts - I have a brother who is one. I am not one of those people. This makes me sad often. This doesn't mean I have discarded my moral compass and replaced it with an 'anything goes, if it feels right, do it' attitude. Though that's the common perception of many regarding people like me. But it does mean that I don't shut off my conscience - ever. I don't think God gave us doubts so that we could bury them and call it faith. I know there are so many like you in the Church. I think your experience with having doubts trivialized or invalidated is extremely common - and horribly unhealthy, and a huge contributing factor for why so many people are leaving. I find myself more and more calling what appears to be a spade a spade and accepting that nothing on earth is perfect. And I have to admit that my own opinions are likely to fall in the realm of imperfection as well. But I try to keep them malleable. And I think all God really needs is good heart, a malleable mind, and a bit of time. One quote by a man named George MacDonald - the person CS Lewis credits with most of his inspiration has helped me a lot. "Neither let thy cowardly conscience receive any word as light because another call it light, while it looks to thee dark. Say either the thing is not what it seems, or God never said or did it. But of all evils, to misinterpret what God does, and then say the thing, as interpreted, must be right because God does it, is of the devil. Do not try to believe anything that affects thee as darkness. Even if thou mistake and refuse something true thereby, thou wilt do less wrong to Christ by such a refusal than thou wouldst by accepting as His what thou canst see only as darkness." -George MacDonald

Hi Danny - i don't give money to the Mormon church any more either. When my mind is right, i try not to judge either side. i mean i could (and too often do), but really, someone else could accurately accuse me of similar wastefulness of God's Gifts to me - my wastefulness just looks a bit different. And i do think the Church does a lot of good. i have had some good friends get help from the Church - so i am glad for the tithing money that helped them. Anyways, my recommendation is that you avoid giving it to an organization. Giving it yourself to people whose problems you understand and whose pain you see and help prevent from continuing is really rewarding. And, giving it in little chunks helps to combat materialism. i believe you have the opportunity to touch people that the church - or any other organization for that matter - just wouldn't - because your sphere of influence is different. And i just can't believe that Jesus would do anything but smile when we give part of ourselves along with our money. And that in no way is meant to put down people who donate tithing - because surely there is a lot faith and very personal sacrifice involved for people who are paying it. Thanks for your goodness in wanting to help so many people. Not many people could part with that amount of money (myself included) - so is very impressive.

Thanks Carb. i have to be done with this discussion. You are asking me a question and telling me you won't believe the answer i give before i give it - so what is the purpose of responding? i tell you i believe what i say and you tell me i actually know my beliefs are wrong. This whole thread came into being as a result of me explaining, defending, and justifying my opinion. i get that the reasons i have my opinion may not be sufficient for you - but to claim i have cited nothing more than gut feeling (though that is certainly a part of my belief) as the reason i have for believing as i do.....i mean, would it do any good for me to say it all again? And i hope people here don't think that just because i am not active in the church it means i've somehow rejected God or abandoned faith. i am closer to Him now than i ever was before - more as a result of His goodness than mine. i do not repent of my beliefs because i find no flaw in them. i can only repent when i act contrary to my beliefs - and such would surely be my course should i ever feel they were wrong. You can explain away my beliefs as willful moral relativism because you and those you associate with don't happen to share them - but it is God's word that will decide - and i feel comfortable in keeping my current beliefs. Anyways, i really hold no malice towards you or any of the people who disagree with me - even disagree vehemently. i hope that feeling is reciprocated - but i have no control over it. Everyone - thank-you for the discussion on this topic. i appreciate everyone's feedback, their passion, their perspectives, and their kindness. They all have great value. To those whom i have offended, i apologize - please know that was never my intention. i wanted to avoid anger and hatred in this thread (as per the title) - both coming from me and from others - and if i continue, it is clear that won't be possible. Feel free to discuss more, but there can be no further comments in this thread from me - to anyone.

Thanks @yjacket Sorry - i said it in my last response, but will say it again. Please use the Bible! i read the Bible every day. i love the New Testament. Valid question on my point. Perhaps because i doubted at first - i wanted to 'try' my own opinion and see how it held up. Because talking about something you say you believe - having to defend it as others attempt to find its weaknesses - it makes the belief more real - in the same way that loving God through the hard times makes your love for God more real than it would be if it had never been challenged and tested. And also just the dialogue. To see how open/closed people were about this topic. To affirm that we can disagree, but civilly. To try and understand someone who disagrees with me rather than marginalizing, generalizing, and hating them. But, what is my point now? Honestly, i think there isn't much of one left. i think i've presented an alternate way of thinking about things. Some have received it more than others - which is fine. And i've seen an alternate way of thinking about things too, and that is great. i didn't come here to get in an argument, and if i stay and continue to comment, i don't think any good thing can come of it. Anyways, the challenge is forever open to find a biblical basis for condemnation of my friend's feelings. i also hope people won't post things about homosexuality here - because that was never what this thread was about. But i can't control that. i'll happily comment on a post that quotes a scripture/verse - but anything else, you are right @yjacket - there is no further point.

Thanks Carb. Yes - it's my opinion. Equal in weight and value to your opinion. And also equal in passion and strength to yours. i'll gladly continue to admit this as many times as you demand that i admit it - though i think the point has been established already? Yes, i stake my eternal salvation on what i believe. because what else do i have? Am i supposed to stake my eternal salvation on what someone else believes? i know this is hard for many people here to believe, but yes, i really do believe my friend. i don't want to believe something and know deep down it isn't true. i believe it. Yes - i believe my friend is a female spirit in a man's body. That seems self explanatory (to me, you can disagree). i think you are referring to explaining what it means to be a female spirit or a male spirit? Yep - no problems - i concede that i can't FULLY explain what it means to be a male or female spirit. i gave you my best attempt already. But does the inability to explain the characteristic of spiritual gender mean it doesn't exist? Did gravity no exist because we couldn't explain it at first? Carb - honestly - i am not attempting to change your mind. It's set in stone - and that isn't necessarily a bad thing. All i ask is that you not claim biblical justifications for saying my friend's feelings are sinful or incorrect. If you don't do that, then all that is left is a continuation of posts like these - whose only fruit is anger and contention.

Thanks @yjacket for the civil and kind tone of this post. It is much appreciated. i actually welcome all scripture that people can bring in showing that my friend's feelings are wrong, or incorrect. i'm not an active Mormon - nor is my friend - but certainly feel free to use anything you wish. i agree on moral relativism. i just don't get why people insist my friend is somehow part of the movement to make morals relative. i guess it is association by generalization and guilt by association. Unfortunate, though.

Thanks @Vort. i guess that for all the people who are correct that the gender of their spirit and body are not aligned, their sense that their is a conflict is a good, healthy and desirable thing - in my opinion. The only one i know well enough to personally vouch for is my friend. No - definitely don't expect the Bible to account for every eventuality. Though to be honest, i am pretty comfortable in saying there is very little that is similar between my friend and a male prostitute. Actually, i am extremely comfortable in saying that.

Thanks @Vort i try to avoid the 'if it results in painful things happening, then it must be bad' association. i can point you to my friend. The pain they have felt has made them more compassionate, more patient, and more kind. i get your point though. And one day, i sincerely hope that we will be able to judge the correctness of a person's actions/beliefs by their outward state. In the mean time, my friend will struggle for the things they believe - growing from that struggle - despite the price, with a hope that one day God will make all right.

Thanks Carb. No argument. i have my opinion - you have your opinion. But opinions they are. i make no claim that the bible explicitly calls out and justifies feelings of gender conflict. Honestly, i am posting this on a Mormon forum. i'd be foolish indeed to suppose that any amount of intellectual wrangling was going to result in people magically discarding their views and join me. However, i do ask that people not use the bible as evidence of the correctness of their opinion. Or that at least before they do so, they provide something that substantiates that claim. And i also reiterate the request that precipitated my first post of the day - that people move their discussions on homosexuality to a different thread - because not doing so reinforces the false stereotype that all people with feelings of gender conflict indulge in homosexuality.

Thanks. OK - so let's be clear. YOU are saying feelings of gender conflict are incorrect. i am absolutely fine with that. i respect your opinion. But to hold up a bible in front of my friend and claim that it is condemning them is invalid. And yes, i realize that some of you may not have done that. Though i don't think i'd be too far off track stating that this thread is rank with such inferences - which is fine - this thread is all about personal inferences. If you haven't done this, then please don't take what i said personally. Even if you have, please don't take it too seriously. i think that feelings of gender conflict have existed for a very, very, very long time. The wiki article for transgender history notes that there are records from ancient times. But, most of the people who make it into the history books are not like my friend at all - so i'd rather not make any claims there. If people want to condemn the feelings of my friend, that is your prerogative. But please don't claim or infer your condemnation is based on biblical facts. @Vort - i don't mean this in a flippant way. But to relate feelings of gender conflict to overthrowing the US government, or eating razor blades. Sorry, i am not sure what to say.