lostinwater

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Everything posted by lostinwater

  1. Thank-you. Well, if i were to be honest, i'd have to admit i am not sure. I guess i think most of the things we say make up a female or a male are just outward expressions of whatever it actually is that does. Or perhaps more accurately, gender is a way in which our essence expresses itself - in the same way that the musician's music or the artist's art are an expression of who they are. And maybe that is why it is so personal and why i feel so deeply for my friend. What more terrible or conflicting thing is there than to feel that you are unable to express who you feel yourself to be? Perhaps that is why 60% of the transgender community attempts to take their own life at some point. i wish i could give you a better answer - but i lack the wisdom to do so. @Eowyn and @MormonGator - you say things far kinder than i deserve to hear. But - those kind words are an expression of who you are! And i thank-you for being who you are!
  2. Thank-you. I am curious. What do you think is the most valid? Or if none apply, what do you feel would be a correct one to add? Option 1 - The body is 100% of the time an accurate representation of the spirit and a person feeling conflicted is evidence of a fallen/corrupted mind. Option 2 - The body is not always an accurate representation of the spirit and a person feeling conflicted is correct and evidence of a fallen/corrupted body. Option 3 - Option 1 applies to almost everyone. Option 2 applies only when we can perceive a physical manifestation of the conflict. Option 4 - Option 1 applies to most people, but in some instances, option 2 may apply, regardless of whether we perceive a physical manifestation of that conflict or not. My understanding is that there are millions of medically documented instances of bodies whose gender is not clear - and so I have a hard time accepting option 1. I think most people who've commented are either not aware of these medically documented cases and so choose option 1, or they are aware and go for option 3. I personally believe in option 4 and am aware of nothing in scripture (I'm no longer active LDS, so keep this in mind) that disqualifies it. Again, I am not advocating for a breakdown of gender roles. Nor I think are the majority of the transgender community - which are the ones no one knows about, like my friend. What I find bothersome is that people judge the entire community as sinful because some of the community act in a way that is not good for society. Most of my friend's pain is not because he can't be a girl scout leader or use the women's bathroom - in fact, they wouldn't if even if they could. It's their knowledge that if they told people how they felt inside - and that it felt right - that they would be labeled either as willful sinners - or as having a mental disorder.
  3. Thank-you. @yjacket - I think you are far kinder and more understanding than many people would suppose - the more I see of what you have to say. I admire your passion. I tend to be more cynical and willing to rationalize - more so I think than I should - were I to be honest. And you are right - I know there are things that everyone struggles with - and just keep to themselves. I admire this in you. Though, I have looked quite a while and I can find nothing in the scriptures that condemns feelings of gender dysphoria - or even says that they are wrong. I mean, it talks about gender. It says God created men and women. It certainly seems to frown heavily on the expression of homosexuality Check and check and check. No arguments. I'm not seeing anything inconsistent with what my friend has expressed. I'm pretty certain there is nothing in scripture that says that every spirit is 100% guaranteed to be placed in a body that matches the gender which they truly are. Rather, there are millions upon millions of instances where this is obviously not the case. To now, I think most people classify those as allowable exceptions - merely because they are visible to their own two mortal eyes. Anything more subtle though is classified as a mental illness or willful sin. Sort of like how people 100 years ago might have viewed someone with MS or Lupus as being lazy or lacking willpower. I think pretty much what has happened is that people have looked upon the visible transgender community - the one that sues the boy scouts, who cross-dress, want kids to choose their gender in elementary school, etc., - and based on things like that - which I agree are harmful to society - assume that anything remotely like gender dysphoria is a total abomination. And who can blame them? I honestly cannot. Our perceptions are largely a function of what we've experienced and the people we've known. Not completely, but mostly. We all get thrown into a meat grinder at various points in our lives. And after a session in that grinder called life, each one of us emerges bleeding a little bit differently. The ones who happen to be heavy, messy bleeders, whose blood ruins our furniture and stains our carpet are the ones society hates and fears. They fill our prisons and our mental hospitals. They rail against the church and are unable to let go. They wave signs and commit crimes. I don't like what the activist trans community does either - but knowing that they hear us using or sense us thinking words like "pervert" and "queer" and "willfully sinful" and "rebellious" - is it not slightly inaccurate to neatly and totally classify their cause and anger as unjust? And as far as scriptural cherry picking - @Eowyn - I agree. Everyone cherry picks with the scriptures. EVERYONE. Think you shouldn't eat meat? No problems, got a scripture for that. Think you should eat meat? Or want to eat meat but not pork. You, my friend, are good to go. Want to justify a man divorcing his wife, or want to condemn someone for getting divorced? Scriptures for those as well. For Mormons - whether you think family history, teaching the youth, family, a mission, or activity in the church is most important - I guarantee you, some seer-level man at some point has a quote you can use. Maybe this is why I've retreated into the four Gospels and rely on my own feelings and what I hope is a semi-malleable view of things that God can always work to shape. There are more than enough scriptures that mormons, catholics, JWs, etc., each ignore - or come up with some rather confusing nonsensical explanation for - asking people to apply their faith to overlook it for now. And don't mistake that as rejection of organized religion on my part. I think organized religion is a very good thing - despite it's many flaws. And in fairness, there are plenty of scriptures that I ignore in my own view of things because I can't make sense of it. One thing I find very sad - is that we are so busy trying to eliminate all the controversial differences that we (and I am as guilty in this as anyone) never appreciate the beauty and honest striving that lies underneath them. Haven't each one of us lost someone and felt sorrow that in all our attempts to fix them we missed our opportunity to appreciate and learn from them? Maybe that's why I posted this here. It's my effort to reach out - to express my views and engage - so that God can take the ideas I have - some of which are no doubt boxed-up, hypocritically and perhaps innocently ignorant - and shape them into something that is more correct. I still feel right about what I've expressed - but I can see that perhaps we are not as far apart as I would have thought at the start of this thread - and certainly can see that people like @yjacket who disagree with me - even passionately - knows truths that God needs me to learn.
  4. Thank-you. Please remember - my friend is not trying to change society - not gay, not a cross-dresser, no surgeries - nothing. If this is about maintaining the status quo, then you have no need to be concerned about them. I guess if the idea I've suggested that in heaven our bodies will be the perfect reflection of our spirits is a threat to your beliefs (don't mean that in a patronizing way), then I guess I am a threat. Though I believe that statement is believed by most members as well. Yes, yes - what that means is debated - but that hope I think is common. Regardless, I do agree with you that this isn't normal. Nobody IS transgender. That's just the word we use on earth to describe the feeling of conflict. Everyone is either male or female in spirit. And in heaven everyone's eternal body will align with that identity. I am very glad their state of conflict is temporary. @MormonGator - I love your disarming wit. Your kindness shines through your words. However, I think I will still avoid using the term 'deviant' when attempting compliments @Eowyn - Beautifully stated. Both my friend and myself find great solace in the scriptures - especially in the 4 Gospels.
  5. Not thinking "pervert". That's the biggest one, and IMO possible even if you disagree with them. Do that, and actions will take care of themselves. At least there is consensus that all will be made right in heaven. Though I am confident as to what that means, I respect that others disagree and sincerely appreciate all the feedback.
  6. Thank-you. All good points. I'm not fighting a battle with you. I mean, you can continue to think that of course - but I'm really not your enemy. My friend is not demanding anything - though certainly they hope that people will treat them with respect, kindness, and without condemnation. Yet for some reason, you've identified us as being a domino in the series of events that leads to rampant child incest. You are a Mormon man who disagrees with me - but I don't view your disagreement as proof that you are harboring a desire for another Mountain Meadows Massacre against transgender people. That would be silly. To be honest, I guess I see lots of bad coming from these kind of sentiments (ie your belief about X differs from mine, therefore you must be part of satan's plan to introduce statutory rape as a societal norm). Though definitely, you don't have to go far back into history to see what satan can do with one evil leader when people become polarized in this way against one another. For the record, I'm pretty sure that is not what Carb was saying at all, but I'll leave that to both of you to hash out.
  7. Thanks for the response. I certainly respect your opinion. Yes, I definitely do read the scriptures. The New Testament Gospels mainly - there is something about the words of Jesus that calm and comfort me in a way that other scripture just doesn't. I actually haven't found anything in there as yet that condemns transgender feelings as you have. If you know of something, I'd like to hear it. Heaven knows I don't know everything. Please remember though, I don't see everything that comes out of the church leadership as scripture. Judge me as you will, but I feel totally comfortable with my current belief structure. If you'd like to know about the near death experience that precipitated my current beliefs, feel free to message me. But I would like to disagree with some assumptions you've made. My friend - and actually quite a few transgender people - aren't demanding acceptance. They aren't waving flags in parades, lobbying for transgender bathrooms, demanding people use a specific pronoun, or suing the Boy Scouts. They are just quietly and humbly suffering with feelings that neither of us completely understand - totally willing to stuff those horrifically painful feelings way down deep to ensure that the other 99.8% of everyone else can keep their societal norms - that I agree are required. I am not saying you would change your mind, but I do think it would be good to get to know a transgender person like my friend before you so roundly condemn their feelings. I mean, I can see that you - though disagreeing with me so strongly - are not a bad person. Not a sinful person. Not someone whose rejection of feelings I agree with is an indication they are in willful rebellion against God. Not filled with hate. You are obviously a great and passionate person from whom I can learn a lot. Perhaps you would feel the same way about someone like my friend if you got to know them. I often find that in order to validate my own personal views, my mind wants to make character judgments about those I disagree with. I mean, if the people who see things differently than I do aren't bad, then there might be some truth to what they say. And sadly, I have a tendency to run from the cognitive dissonance this creates. Just imagine though - perhaps you are wrong. Perhaps in light of the fact that some spirits are born into bodies without arms, without legs, with two heads, and even bodies that spontaneously impregnate themselves. Perhaps, just perhaps, there is also something resulting from the brokenness of mortality that affects the gender of a body - beyond what we can see between someone's legs. If that is true - and I know that it is (more than welcome to disagree) - then these precious, patient, humble, tortured souls, whose spirit has always been, and will always be, a specific gender deserve more compassion, acceptance where societal constructs permit, and admiration than I could ever be capable of expressing.
  8. Kind of you indeed. But a little self denigrating humor with a basis in truth I've never found to be a bad thing. I plan to!
  9. Thank-you. I do apologize - I could have been clearer in that statement. I actually thank everyone on this thread - including those who have indicated my friend is incorrect - for having done so in what felt to me to be a kind way. So thank-you for that. I don't view disagreement as hate. Granted - I'm not particularly intelligent, but if my goal was to attempt to get positive reinforcement for my point of view, I'd most definitely not have posted this here. I posted because for me it's helpful to talk to those with whom I disagree. Others often expose flaws in my own logic - and help me become more balanced. Helps me realize that those I disagree with are not monsters acting in willful ignorance - just good people that see the world differently than I do.
  10. NeuroTypical - thank-you. I agree with this. I think we often (myself included) forget that most people need more to be accepted than to be corrected. Not just that they want to be accepted more than corrected - though no doubt that is true as well. They NEED to be accepted more than corrected. For example, you can lecture to someone who has just attempted suicide about selfishness, accuse them of attempted murder - all of which are arguably true - and call them to repentence - but I'd suggest that you'd most likely be doing more harm than good. Now, please don't interpret that as my believing that my friend needs correction. I used to. I don't any more. But think the rule of thumb above is almost always applicable regardless. I do find it frustrating that most of the people who most strongly indicate my friend is wrong and needs correction have never really, really, really gotten to know a person who expresses these feelings. But I guess we all have to base our beliefs off of what we've experienced. I'm sure I have a bunch of beliefs that are based on mistruths as well. I'd just caution and say that if your feelings about these people are based on bathroom policies, sex change operations, and rainbow flags in parades, that you are not seeing the whole story.
  11. Thank-you. I'll respond to this one as I feel it encapsulates most of the viewpoints which are opposite to my own. And those viewpoints are valuable to me - i genuinely mean that. I guess I fail to see how one can construct an immutable refutation of my friend's point of view based on this statement, given, among other things, the presence of hermaphrodites (people born with a mixture of male and female sex organs). I guess you could say that such exceptions are allowable only for people whose gender conflict is manifested in a way that is currently visible to science and our naked eye. But surely, such exceptions have to be made, right? And we're talking about 1 in 2000 births - at least 3.5 million people on this earth (just right now). I mean, we have people born without arms, people born with 3 arms, people born without legs, people born with 3 legs. Heck, i mean you want to read something interesting. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2147778/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19155947 I am trying to understand, but i just fail to see how the whole 'you are created exactly as you were meant to be' argument holds any water. People spontaneously impregnating themselves? What gender are they? Given that this life compared against the eternal timeline lasts perhaps a few minutes, is it really that impossible to believe that there might be a divine reason for a spirit whose gender IS fixed to be clothed in a different body temporarily? i I get it why this scares people. It scares and confuses me too. Maybe the exceptions have to be quiet and suffer to learn what they need to learn and then be made right. But to declare that such exceptions don't exist in order to maintain our black/white separation seems wrong too. i would love to get all thoughts. And I'll try to do a better job of listening to others point of view. i already understand my own.
  12. Thank-you. I respect that opinion, but I do not understand it fully - and I would like to. I see all the illnesses that people have - malformed bodies, people born without limbs, or the ability to speak, people born with mix of male and female organs - and I tend to think it is reasonable belief to hold that perhaps a spirit whose gender is fixed for some reason gets placed in a body that does not match their spirit. I am interested to get your thoughts on this topic. Do you feel that the illnesses which plague people are not allowed to extend to the gender of the body? Please know that I mean no disrespect - I just like to learn more about the thought processes of those who do not see the world as I do. Thank-you very much.
  13. I have a dear friend who recently told me he considers himself a female. He dresses like a man, does not demand the use of girl bathrooms, does not march in parades, or demand that people accept him as a female. In fact, he avoids telling others generally, as he knows it causes them pain. He just believes that in his spirit, he is female. He doesn't think that God made a mistake - just that for some reason, God decided he could learn something - or help someone - in this life, with a male body in a way that he wouldn't or couldn't in a female body. So he is waiting for the next life where he believes God will at last place his spirit in the correct body. To him, it is a temporary learning experience. I have to admit, I feel quite certain I wouldn't be the person I am today if he had been placed in a female body. Regardless, this is all extremely confusing to me - and I feel intensely conflicted. His humility is not consistent with the internal beliefs concerning transgender people that I am having to re-evaluate. I am wondering if you have any similar experiences or thoughts on this subject? That said, I request that anyone thinking mean or judgmental thoughts not post them here. I view no response at all as being preferable to ones that are devoid of compassion and filled with judgments about the character of my friend.