lostinwater

Thank-you! Well, i'll cite hypothetical third person perspective again. But point is well taken - accurate words are important - especially when allegations of this sort are involved. Honestly, i'm not out to scalp Bishop. i wasn't there. And even if i was, i don't think that making someone else suffer will heal anyone. But when admission of guilt on tape is insufficient for a victim to be believed. That, i think, is the message that is being heard by a lot of people. i'm not demanding that others shut up or not talk about those whom they advocate for. All are important. Just giving one perspective. i'm not perfect enough to understand every viewpoint. Probably none of us are. And if, purely for the sake of argument, this woman is somehow taking advantage of the situation, then my concern about the message being heard by the silent ones is even deeper. Because it would send not just the signal of "a taped confession isn't enough to be believed" - but rather "see, all the things i feel about myself after being abused are right - it really WAS my fault".

Thank-you Sir. i posted that more as a hypothetical third party perspective of the situation. That said, if anyone knows of Bishop - or his son - denying the person being interviewed was in fact Joseph Bishop - definitely please share. i'll let everyone here analyze the transcript/recording themselves.

Attempting to portray third person perspective here. i am a girl who has been sexually abused. i feel a crippling amount of shame and confusion about it. People ask me "What's Wrong?" i tell them, "Nothing, you wouldn't understand!" They beg and plead. i hear this story - i see a woman who has obtained a taped confession from the man who raped her. It is shared in the media, after which the perpetrator denies it - saying a medical procedure made them so groggy they accidentally admitted to something they didn't do - and not just any something - molesting young women while in a position of power and authority. They see a great deal of conflict and confusion and some people saying that the man who can now no longer be prosecuted for the crime - who likely will never face any kind of legal retribution for what he admitted to doing - is accorded the benefit of the doubt. And not only that, the person who claimed the assault occurred has dirt about her past thrown up and plastered all over the news. This girl knows she has lied in her past too. She thinks of all her mistakes - the shame of the event and just everything makes her wilt inside. And she doesn't even have anything close to what the woman in the news has. She has no taped confession. She just has her word. She thinks she was in the wrong place. That may something about how she acted encouraged the man to do what he did. That girl swears to herself that she will never EVER tell anyone about this. Never expose something that hurts as much as her memory of that experience to a world who will not believe her. She descends into an eating disorder, self harm, and eventually, attempts suicide. Of course, this assumes a number of things. It's definitely not the only perspective. Feel free to write the account from another perspective. In fact, please do. Maybe it will help all of us understand one another a little better.

A very fine line between something being taught and something being perceived/inferred. i think Elizabeth Smart highlighted how teaching one thing so much, so hard, etc., plants emotional landmines that can almost destroy a person when they are detonated far later in life. i'm not posting this as some demand for the mormon church to change - but her observation, in my opinion, is deadly accurate. "I think the power of faith is amazing, the hope and the healing that it can bring to people," Elizabeth Smart said in the interview, crediting her LDS faith for helping her survive and overcome the nightmare of her abduction. "But I also think there's another side of it that can be potentially very harmful, especially when a lot of religions teach that sexual relations are meant for marriage... It's so stressed that, girls in particular, tie their worth to their virginity, or, for lack of a better word, purity." And Elizabeth Smart had been one of those girls. "I did make that promise to myself that I was going to wait until marriage before I had sex... Well, then I was kidnapped and I was raped, and one of the first thoughts I had was, 'No one is ever going to want to marry me now: I'm worthless, I'm filthy, I'm dirty.' I think every rape survivor feels those same feelings, but having that with the pressure of faith compounded on top—it was almost crippling."

Thank-you! i like what you say about how most people, the most influential work they can do is on a personal level. It's far less glamorous - but probably more needed. That said. 1. i am glad that Martin Luther did not believe this. 2. i think most people who try to reform (anything - but especially religion) are nothing like Martin Luther

Hmm - good points. Makes sense - hard to do - but makes sense. And @Just_A_Guy - not only is that a great analogy, but the Wikipedia article for it has all sorts of neat analogies linked from it. The Cobra effect, Overton's Window, Streissand effect - and i've got YOU all to thank for them. i like that. Sincere questions - not questions designed to blow their self worth into a billion pieces. Just do what you do from a base of respect. i've wondered on this one. i'm no Jesus - that's for sure. i don't know 100% when to be harsh, and when to be gentle. He always knew. Most anything i say as a sinner comes from a base of hypocrisy - unintended or otherwise. i tend to err on the side of being gentle, and tell God and Jesus that They will need to take that person to someone who is more willing to whack off the parts that can't be saved. It's a flawed solution, though. And @wenglund - we both mentioned cobra effect from the linked article. Neat one, right? i didn't see your response until just now. What would we do without wikipedia?

Honest question. What is the acceptable way to voice disagreement with some aspect of the mormon church? Cultural, doctrinal, etc., Maybe there isn't a way. Maybe anyone who says the leadership/doctrine/culture is wrong needs to shut up, decide to accept it, or leave. i could never find a way that just didn't make everyone fighting mad. And that's fine. There's nothing in any bill of rights that says i have a right to expect to be able to tell someone else they are wrong or messed up and have them listen - especially when my participation with them is voluntary. In my quieter moments, i think i see that there is enough people forgotten in the shadows to keep an army of people more capable than myself busy. Just help patch up the people that didn't click with the system and got hurt. And as you here all know, i hardly consistently follow this advice myself. But i acknowledge the need for the Martin Luther types in any system. The ones the system swears are not needed and yet when you look back on it, say 'Wow, i'm sure glad that person whose actions we hated said or did what they did'. And for them - the ones wiser than myself - how should they proceed? Or should they just accept that things are not going to change and try and get over it? i hope you all take this in the spirit in which it is written. It's just a question i would like to hear your thoughts on.

Ugh - Well, i judged that one wrong. Sounds like you've been very concerned about her from the beginning - which is no surprise. Apology needed, and offered.

+1 to this. Also, if there is no financial need to do so, volunteering may be an option. You have much more freedom to write your own ticket in terms of how much responsibility you take on, and the opportunity to make a difference are boundless.

That's a beautiful explanation. i remember attending a service once - the feeling i had. It was....profound.

A good thread @Blossom76 . Having attended several other worship services, i've grown to appreciate more the comparative reverence/calmness of the mormon meetings. That's not to say there is anything wrong with the others. There's a very beautiful kind of exuberant happiness in them, but i will never quite get used to drums and electric guitars in a church. Even when there are lot of kids in the sacrament service - it's not even remotely close. i very much appreciate this in the mormon services. i hope you'll check in here frequently - whether in the mormon church or no. i have nothing but respect for the way in which you pursue meaning/truth in your life. And let me know if you ever find something that ticks all the boxes - i'm searching too.

@truthseaker - thank-you for posting this. Very good advice/commentary, indeed. Most of us see what we want to see/what we've been taught to see, until something happens that causes us to re-evaluate. At that point, we adjust, and carry on. i think as long as we're willing to adjust and listen to God and Jesus - then things will come right in the end. i have come to believe that it is wrong to make assumptions about the intents (ie willingness to adjust) of another person based solely upon the fact that they hold views differing from our own.

This effort means a lot. Thank-you.

@JohnsonJones - prayers coming your way. If you want something nobody can understand (or need something to put you to sleep ) https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3582124/ If you want something to tell you things you mostly already know https://www.merckmanuals.com/home/immune-disorders/biology-of-the-immune-system/effects-of-aging-on-the-immune-system i've had some people close to me experience autoimmune diseases. The most common reason i've heard is 'we don't know' and the most common way of treating them is 'try and shut the whole thing off'. i don't think the medical community has a really good handle on the intensely complex interactions that we call our immune system. But please drink plenty of fluids and get good rest. And give yourself a healthy amount of time to continue your rest even after you feel better. Pneumonia has a way of coming back if you try and get back into things before your body has gotten it completely under control. Please take care.

That's great @truthseaker ! Maybe consider going out of your way to be nice to that mission leader. No doubt, he's dealing with some bitterness. To see that you are wanting to be nice would help nip a negative relationship in the bud. And he'd be lucky to get to know someone like you.

Good. Well, honestly, i'm a bit dense at times, too. That, and i think i've been watching too many of the Hitler's Circle of Evil documentary episodes on Netflix....

@Vort - you don't really believe this, do you? i honestly don't see how Hitler could be preferred to anyone here - by like, say, around, a factor of a million.

True! But of course the people whose actions have that effect see it as an inevitable consequence of the maintenance of their morality - like they are the rock solid wall that the idiot keeps stubbing his toe on. But two armies form, dig in, and bullets begin to fly, both fully convinced the correctness of their cause justifies the use of extreme emotional force. From my experience, those bullets hit far more (partly to mostly) innocent bystanders than anyone else - the ones that don't suit up in their bulletproof vests of righteous indignation at the start of every day. i guess though that's a medic's point of view - and displays my lack of respect for those who do the jobs i'm incapable of doing.

So you mean they all start playing church basketball? That's an odd thing to do after discussing white shirts....

@changed - i think you would enjoy "The Great Divorce" by C.S. Lewis. it's a super interesting take on the next life, and progression in general. i'm not doing it justice, but i think it conveys the idea that there isn't much caging going on. Just people choosing to stay where they are because they are currently struggling with letting go of something - but being welcomed to somewhere better - what the book refers to as 'deep heaven' - when they are ready. i think it's my favorite of all Lewis' works.

i just hope that in all this you don't lose touch with your own goodness. i think effort that persists means an awful lot to God. The things we become as we slog through the mud of our lives must be worth a lot to God - because He and Jesus paid a huge price for them. i've never seen a wound heal by someone letting it soak it in the battery acid of self-hatred, anyways. Then this isn't exactly the same, but i am rather terrified of the dark (yeah, i know) - and it is strange, but when i pray that angels will come and make me less afraid - i've never felt like that one goes unanswered. it's always answered immediately - or such is how it feels. Bizarre, given all the seemingly more important prayers where answers are less forthcoming - but maybe it helps you. That, and a good piece of music.

Cute kid, sounds like. If a face like makes someone creepy, i may have to re-evaluate my aversion to horror movies .

He had a very hard life. i guess to an extent we all create/adopt beliefs to explain the various versions of hell that happen to us. His particular version was pretty bad. i hope he was pleasantly surprised - i tend to think he will be. i wonder sometimes what kind of tradeoffs God is willing to make - in terms of our flaws - for what we add to the world. Maybe Hawking never would have discovered what he did without ALS/atheistic beliefs. The movie 'Theory of Everything' is definitely interesting. Lots of things that one might disagree with, but i suppose that is true for all of us - and famous people just just have a harder time covering up their dirty laundry. You watch that kind of movie, or read a biography on Einstein or others like him, and realize they were people who struggled just like the rest of us. Einstein fathered an illegitimate child, tried to cover it up, and struggled (probably mostly not succeeding) to be active in her life until he died.

i'm thinking that using the client-contractor relationship as a platform to talk about Jesus might just serve as pretty good construction insurance. Smart, @MormonGator, Smart.

Well, i'd be interested in hearing about the ones you are willing to share. And for the record, i doubt your testimony 'sucked'. Most cars going up hills have to either slow down or throw out the excess weight. You are an exceptional person from all your posts i've seen,. Really painful experiences seem to create incredible people, who have intensely unique and deep relationships with God. Seems to me you've just come out better on the other side for it all.