lostinwater

Let's say the person feels genuine regret for what they did. Is the hangup that "a few" stripes isn't sufficient? What if "a few" were instead "many"? Would there be a point where they'd suffered enough? Or does a person who is likened to a toddler in comparison to God who screws up - however you define that - for a period of time that in the eternal perspective i've heard likened to the blink of an eye - need to be thrown into the dungeons of hell, or some degree thereof, with the key being thrown away - there to remain amidst their regrets and desires to change? i mean, if you have a baby girl that whacks her sibling over the head with a block, you put her in a time-out. But you don't give up on her - especially if that girl has not given up on herself. Is God different in that regard? i don't know - it honestly doesn't make sense to me. i respect if it does to others - this isn't meant to be an argument. Or maybe i'm not understanding what everyone else is saying.

Yep! Completely agree. My mom was pregnant with her 4th child (not counting miscarriages) - 3 young kids to take care of. The bishop called her to i think the RS presidency. My dad - who is pretty staunchly traditionalist - stepped in and quashed that one - and i'm grateful he did. That's some excellent advice.

Thanks @Carborendum CS Lewis had a peculiar ability to write things that almost everyone - even those who typically see things differently - can read and agree with. i sort of interpreted the quote as meaning that people in hell (or some degree of hell) can still choose to come to heaven - assuming they can let go of the hell inside of them and will accept light and warmth and forgiveness. But i see your points also - which are, as usual, perfectly elucidated!

One of my favorite quotes is from CS Lewis' The Great Divorce. “There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, in the end, "Thy will be done." All that are in Hell, choose it. Without that self-choice there could be no Hell. No soul that seriously and constantly desires joy will ever miss it. Those who seek find. Those who knock it is opened.”

+1 i'm as guilty as anyone in quoting a study whose results i happen to like. But i'm honestly not sure correlation can be separated from causation most of the time. So many factors at play. It's always a good thing to find out who is paying for the study too. And please don't mistake, i've never had any alcohol - but i know a lot of people who can keep the word of wisdom and have problems way more serious than drinking a glass of wine on occasion.

DNA is an interesting one. i don't think we know a lot about it. From what little i've read, DNA is a small portion of an incredibly complex puzzle. The real action comes from gene expression - the extent to which a certain segment of DNA is uncoiled, transcribed into RNA, and translated into actual proteins. i tend to think that it's in this realm of gene expression/gene silencing/epigenetics that the control of spirit over the body takes place. But that is total speculation on the part of someone (me) who has never formally studied it. DNA most definitely plays a role - diseases like sickle cell anemia arise from i think like a single nucleotide being out of whack. But DNA in most areas allows for a lot of flexibility from external and in my opinion spiritual factors. As far as how someone recognizes a relative without prior knowledge, my thought is that perhaps that there is some sub-conscious recognition of subtle phenotypic commonalities that a (reasonably) similar genotype often results in. Though i must admit, i'm pretty sure i would not be able to pick my 2nd cousins out of a police lineup . But seriously - your kids (all of them) are one lucky bunch to have you as their father. i've always been closer to my mother, though i i'm uncommonly fond of my dad too. i guess i just gravitate towards the more gentle energy of my mother, and relate to my dad in an entirely different, more rare (but no less necessary for being rare) way. and i've never gotten genealogy either. My mothers *loves* it - and for the life of me, i can't understand what thrills her so much about it. i just figure it must be part of her mission in life.

Thanks @Vort Yeah - i don't want to get into the whole business of telling people how they should view things - i'd probably be wrong anyways, or just make things worse. My best guess is that you are dead on accurate - a person who really believes in the Mormon church would most likely see it exactly as you are talking about. i've seen my Mother weep for her children who, from her perspective, HAVE rejected God and Jesus by rejecting full participation in the Mormon church. we tell her she doesn't have to cry - that we haven't rejected God - but we know that doesn't help - because from the way she sees things, it is something to weep over. And truly, there exists not a heart more free of guile or undeserving of any sort of pain than hers. i guess that's what is so sad about it. i view her as a victim of an unbalanced view of the importance of religion as opposed to just personal goodness and relationship to God. But it's a victim-hood that we (or me at least) have laid upon her shoulders by not pretending to believe something i mostly don't. And i'll be the first one to admit, i occasionally doubt my own beliefs when i encounter things i can't explain. But we're sort of forced to create a view of the world as best we can - even when it doesn't work 100% of the time. i read books like CS Lewis' A Grief Observed or how Mother Teresa felt abandoned by God for much of her life - and if people of their caliber doubt what they lived out in real life, my guess is that everyone doubts what they profess to absolutely know and discretely digs about for something more on occasion. i wonder often just what is the right thing to do. i hope God somehow removes some of the sting of her tears, and that things work out in the end.

Thank-you Sir. No arguments. Awkwardness is definitely not shunning. It just feels that way sometimes. And that's just an observation - not an accusation. i respect that, but can't agree with it . And that's not an argument. My belief has learned how to exist regardless of what others call it. i've found God and Jesus outside the Mormon church in ways i never did when i was in it. Who knows why. i've asked Them. i tend to think maybe we all need slightly different experiences to really come to know God - or help others in specific ways that might not been possible otherwise. i also understand that when people try and convert me back - even through ways that seem a bit unsavory, it's with the best of intentions. And if anything, proof of a concern i should exhibit more gratitude for.

i agree with what's been said pretty much. It's very rare for a member to do anything overt. In fact, generally, members are over the top kind of warm and fuzzy towards new people, or the person who returns for the first few times after a long stint away. @anatess2 pointed this out accurately. The shunning (or perception, if you prefer) is far more subtle. It's the fear and discomfort and awkwardness you sense pouring off someone when they ask you to go visiting teaching and you say you'd rather not. When you ask a question about something you don't believe and it elicits some trivializing and borderline hostile explanation. And in fairness, it goes both ways. i think people sense in a thousand tiny ways when someone doesn't believe like they did. And they feel the awkwardness of that, too. Can't be easy for them, either. And all of a sudden, your kids aren't invited to the birthday party, potlucks go from affairs of personal warmth to incredibly painful awkwardness. Is anyone shunning? No. Awkwardness isn't shunning, but it feels like that most of the time. And the worst part comes in that unlike normal human interactions, just parting ways is way more difficult. Most of these people had the mormon church and it's importance woven into the very core of who they are. It's major surgery to separate them, with setbacks and senselessness and anger and confusion and hurt through the whole process. It's like trying to pretend something nearly as fundamental to who you are as your own parents never existed. Honestly, it's nobody's fault. i wish the church weren't made out to be so important. From where i sit, being kind is far more important (respect that others disagree). Separation of church from God and Jesus and self is something a lot of members lack (my opinion). And it really affects a lot of people. But, at the same time, i know that what i call a lack of balance probably helps others, in another context. It's just so very sad at times - to see so much misunderstanding and anger and fear and all the pain it causes. i recommended this on another thread a while back - but if you want to watch a good documentary - i really recommend the American Experience Film about the Amish - called "Shunned". Contrary to what the title might lead one to believe, it's not about demonizing religion for shunning those who leave it. It portrays in a beautiful way just how people's priorities and experiences can be almost diametrically opposed to one another, with them both being good. Or maybe finding out that someone whose priorities you *thought* were opposite of yours are actually the same as yours, and they are just looking for them in different ways/places. Many of the people in the documentary actually return to the Amish - and it leaves a person with a sense of respect for both sides. So poignant. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmcslHY9gvM

Ugh - i can't even get my jokes right! You'd have to understand property taxes in King County up here. They really *would* consider increasing your property taxes for having an elaborate shelter made from cardboard - if they thought a HOA had seen and approved of it first.... And if you doubt the efficacy of cardboard and pallets, you need to walk around the Space Needle and see some of the incredible structures those experiencing homelessness have going. And Vort wouldn't be living in a box - just renting one out for someone else to live in. Box living is something only the hicks like me who are south of Seattle have to do.

All @Vort needs to do is rent out a very modest size cardboard box. Anywhere east of Lake Washington will do. With Seattle's housing market, 2 months of him collecting rent should easily pay for half of MormonHub to visit Rome. Assuming, of course, that King County doesn't bankrupt him with property tax increases for the cardboard box improvement to his property and/or give him a heart attack first.

The Getty Center (not quite up to the artistic abilities you mentioned on a thread a while back - but still good) on your way to the boardwalk at Santa Monica and the beach there. Just try and plan for traffic.

In Rob's defense. i feel this one keenly. People tell me to ask. "Don't trust us (substitute apostle or prophet), ask!" Sounds great. Then, when i get a different answer than they did, they say "Nope - you didn't ask long enough." i ask again, and get the same answer i did the first time. They say, "You didn't ask right!". Again, same answer. Eventually, they stop asking you to ask, and switch to "You KNOW we're right, but just won't admit it to yourself!". No, i really didn't get the answer you said i would. It switches to "Repent!" Repent of what? i don't believe what you're saying is right. i ask God and Jesus in my prayers to them directly and still, feel i am ok. Just very confusing. Process continues as long as you allow it to. Rob studied something out and didn't come to the same conclusion as others. i don't agree with a lot that Rob says (this being an exception) - but i respect his diligence and the process he follows in trying to figure things out.

This is the kind of wisdom that looks at itself in the mirror and calls what it sees luck!

@Rob Osborn Thank-you. i very much agree with this.

Thank-you for posting this. i agree entirely. And we all come from *very* good spiritual Parents . i don't think God and Jesus give up on people - whether they are in mortality or not. i really think everyone who wants to be saved and in heaven with God and Jesus, will be. But you'll have to let go of the things that aren't allowed - and you have to want it - nobody is going to force you. This will be easier for some than others. And for those that won't or can't let it go, they may need to have it burned out of them to make them pure enough. And this isn't me recommending a eat/drink/be merry kind of view of life. Not at all.

Blast! There you go quoting one of my favorite movies so i almost can't disagree with you . Good points - my statement needed clarifying, and balancing. i guess i mean the pure kind of fragility. But yes, you are right - it needs boundaries. And i agree with what you are saying about homeschooling. My sister who homeschools her kids expresses the same sentiments. Sounds like your kids are lucky to have you as a Dad - because it seems you provide them the pluses of homeschooling while replacing anything it might be lacking. i know many kids/families who wouldn't have done real well with home schooling - but it was a much different situation. Good theories are the ones that work in real life. So yours sounds like a real good theory to me.

Thank-you Sir. i guess i don't see being a (what some might call overly) gentle and fragile person as at all a negative thing. i know some will differ, which is fine. Other than that, i agree that @JohnsonJones paragraph you quoted summed it all up perfectly.

Thanks @zil. Agree. Just a general observation to promote the idea that while taking points to extremes is fine in debate, a bit of balance tends to be handier (at least for me) when it comes to actually applying in real life. i am in no way against homeschooling - i have 6 nieces/nephews that are home-schooled - and another 5 that will likely be very soon. But i think the points that @JohnsonJones makes are entirely valid as well. Whether the good outweighs the bad is a decision i think every parent has to make. And honestly, i think most parents (and the God that helps them decide) know their kids well enough to make the correct decision far more often than not.

There does have to be a balance though, right? i mean, you keep people too isolated, and they become even snow-flakier than me - which is, well, pretty snow-flaky. And, i attended public schools, to boot!

i really appreciate your perspective here in all this. i have a sister who homeschools all of her kids, and i know she really thought over a lot of the points you make - and is actually constantly re-evaluating them. Her decision to homeschool i think was a function of the temperaments of her children - very much along the lines of what you talked about.

Completely agree @JohnsonJones My perspective is the same as yours. It was probably not the best example for me to even use that one. i meant more that the idea that governments force there to be a perfect 50/50 gender split in all professions. Honestly, i think very good and intelligent people like your daughter - her experiences - highlight a big swathe of the legitimate biases that the feminist movement is trying to address.

Thanks. Please define feminism, though. If your definition of "bad/extreme" feminism is legislating that 50% of all engineers be women and then recommending that any company that does not comply be fined, then i'm not in favor of that either. If your definition of "bad/extreme" feminism is women being given the right to vote or become politicians, or Saudi women being given the right to drive, or removal of the stigma of a woman working full time, then unfortunately, we'll have to agree to disagree.

Unfortunately, i think that's how they are viewed by a lot of people - more or less the point of that whole video. Many are addressing real problems, though. It's unfortunate - i think a lot of people hold the view that anyone who advocates for the correction of legitimate biases against women are inherently denigrating men in the attempt. Not true. And please, don't misunderstand. i'm not saying other biases or unfairness are not out there. Rights movements don't generally just spontaneously create themselves with a cause, though. i'll cite, as an olive-branch example, the men's rights movement.