MBKnabe
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Posts posted by MBKnabe
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23 minutes ago, Vort said:
Do you see a problem with this, MBKnabe? It's a sort of inverse no-true-Scotsman claim. Consider the following claim:
"Every fair-minded person is a Ku Klux Klanner, whether you call yourself that or not."
Do you agree with this? If not, why should anyone else agree with your statement above?
But the KKK is a cohesive group with actual membership and initiations. Further, equality is the fundamental principle of feminism in the same way that racism is the fundamental principle of the KKK, so a more accurate statement would be "Every racist person is a Ku Klux Klanner..." even though, feminism is not an actual organization. Feminism is a political ideology; in the same way we call ourselves conservatives or liberals even if we don't agree with conservatives/liberals on every individual issue. There is no "official" conservatism. It's just a label used to clarify your viewpoint. The same is true of feminism.
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22 minutes ago, Carborendum said:
This is like saying that since Mormons don't agree on everything, you can't dismiss the Church's beliefs because of what is said in General Conference.
If what you're describing as feminism is what most who carry the label of feminist believe, then where is that voice in the public square? What organizations are out there that push for conservative values while promoting actual equality between men and women and encouraging REAL choice, not just toting the party line?
But feminism isn't as cohesive a group as the LDS church. They don't have a "General Conference" equivalent, they just have people and groups who say their opinions. But you're not "out" just because you don't agree with what prominent feminists believe. Feminism means different things to different people. But if you strive for equality, you're a feminist, whether you call yourself that or not.
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6 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:
Sure. Person one gets to ride the train to the Californee gold rush but person two has to walk. But they both end up in Californee so...what's person two complaining about? Equal.
That is a false comparison. The prophet doesn't get to the celestial kingdom faster than anyone else. He's just a man who has worked hard, been worthy, and been chosen to bring us God's word.
6 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:How so? Examples?
Here's an example:
Studies show that women get interrupted and ignored more than men (see for example this article from the journal of anthropological and Anthropological linguistics It's behind a pay wall, so if you need further evidence, feel free to peruse this summary of the article, and news articles such as this one from Forbes Magazine and this one from the New York Times as well as this article about female supreme court justices being interrupted.)
I have seen this in my life at church. My husband and I teach a gospel principles. No matter how studied I am on a subject, when I teach, I am interrupted and talked over. It's not deliberate or malicious, but it is sexist and systematic. When my husband teaches, he is recognized as the authority on that lesson, and is able to direct the conversation, finish his thoughts, and answer questions. That's just one example. I have a ton more examples of how I'm treated differently than male counterparts. Sexism exists. That's not the question.
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43 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:
Equality is socially and politically typically understood in two ways, equality of opportunity and equality of outcome (depending on which side of the left/right scale one falls upon). However, the church teaches equality of value. Men being given the priesthood and therefrom the rights to keys, which is the right to preside, distinctly and literally creates a difference in the opportunity and outcome potential for women as related to men.
In other words, the fact that a woman can never be president of the church IS inequality. Obviously.
The real debate should be whether inequality is always bad. It's not particularly helpful for we LDS to redefine the meaning of the word equality and then claim equality in the church.
Ultimately, we have the same equality of opportunity within the church, because the goal of this life is to become like our Heavenly Parents and we are all capable of that. Being the prophet isn't the point. Being the prophet doesn't make you more important than being a nursery leader in a small branch. We all have opportunities to serve.
Besides, you are leaving out equal treatment, which is what I'm focused on within the church. Often women are looked at as second class citizens. That's why I am feminist.
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8 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:
The truth is that the vast majority of mormon women who are happy in the church do not consider themselves feminists. The vast majority of mormon feminists I have dialogued with on the other hand are unhappy and do want the priesthood.
Some women don't consider themselves feminist because they misunderstand what feminism means, but they still espouse many feminist ideas - specifically striving for equality. Those who want the priesthood are just shouting louder than the majority of Mormon feminists. And besides, feminism is not one thing. People are individuals! They have different thoughts about what feminism means. But one thing it definitely doesn't do is try to diminish the important roles of men. Don't feel threatened by women reasserting our rights. We don't want to take anything away from you.
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Just now, The Folk Prophet said:
By definition, women DO need the priesthood to be "truly" equal.
So you're suggesting that equality is synonymous with sameness? Men are dollar bills and women are silver dollars. They're both equal in worth. They just have different constructions and different roles. Therefore, we don't need to be the same to be equal.
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50 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:
Mormon feminists see the patriarchal order as bad and sexist. This is one reason why they want the priesthood.
Very few women want the priesthood. I am a Mormon feminist. I understand that the priesthood is a sacred calling for men. We have other things. Ordain Women was a small but vocal group of people who were misguided in believing that they needed the priesthood in order to be truly equal. The VAST majority of Mormon women are happy with our place in the church. The vocal minority, doesn't define feminism for most Mormon women.
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18 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:
Modern day feminism is not about being treated with fairness. Feminism today is about breaking down the structure of the homes, gender, and the patriarchal order where the father is head of household and presides in the home. This removal of the father and his role in the home is a strongly argued point in why children are increasingly turning to violence, drugs, gender issues, etc. You want to speak of murder, how about the millions of aborted fetuses murdered every year that the new feminism not only supports but promotes?
No feminist wants to take fathers out of the home. What feminists refer to as "The Patriarchy" is a completely different concept from righteous "Patriarchal Order". I think mixing up those two terms is where our fundamental disagreement comes from. The Patriarchy is systematic dominion of women. Patriarchal order is the way Heavenly Father organizes homes, congregations and families. Those two ideas are not at odds, because in the patriarchal order you refer to "No apower or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the bpriesthood, only by cpersuasion, by dlong-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned;"
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12 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:
No. The gospel is.
No. When women are righteous and Christlike they will not willingly kill their children.
Yes, but despite what Prophets have said on the sacred nature of women, the equality between the sexes, and the importance of men and women as a unit, sexism within the church is rampant. The Gospel is perfect, but people are flawed. Focusing on issues of gender inequality within our culture and trying to create a more equal society can function within the church to help people become more Christlike. Christ loved, valued and respected the women in his life. Many Mormons don't. Mormon culture as a whole could do a lot better at that. That's why we need to integrate feminism into our culture. Because people are not listening to what the gospel actually teaches about how we treat our fellow human beings and that needs to change. Hence, I am a Mormon Feminist and I try to help others understand feminism.
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19 minutes ago, Vort said:
As a political and social movement in the United States of America, feminism as a whole is rotten down to its dark heart. It exists to destroy the family and to widen the gap in the Satanic "war between the sexes."
Feminists in the US don't agree on everything. I am super against abortion. But you can't dismiss the whole movement because of one issue where we disagree. I see issues in the way we treat women as a society at large and we HAVE to fix that. Feminism, for now, is the best way to address that. And I can simultaneously fight for the rights of all women, while defending the rights of the unborn. We need feminist, equality driven, woman centered points of view on the side of the Pro-Life movement. It adds credibility to the argument against abortion.
When women kill their own off-spring, something is seriously wrong with society. Pro-choice activists use abortion as a band-aid to temporarily fix the problem of an unwanted pregnancy. What we need is to fix the system. Society has to empower women to raise their children. We need men to step up and be good fathers, so that mothers don't have to do it alone. We need paid maternity leave so that women can help financially provide for their children, and have time to bond with them. These things will end abortion. When women are supported, empowered and capable, they will not willingly kill their children. Feminism can help provide that.
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49 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:
Yes, fathers need to be in the home too. What you are saying isnt feminism though.
Oh but it is. Suggesting husbands and wives must be equally yoked is feminism. Feminism is about equality. Differing roles between men and women do not contradict the tenants of feminism.
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On 6/22/2017 at 1:06 PM, Rob Osborn said:
Of all the things that threaten society feminism is by far perhaps the greatest threat to our society.
Really? Not militant groups throughout the world that murder Christians in cold blood, in the name of religion? Not wars that devastate homes and livelihoods, leaving thousands of stranded refugees with nothing but the clothes on their backs? Not drug addiction, rapists, murderers and criminals? With all of these atrocities going on, the greatest threat is from people who want to be treated with fairness?
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On 6/23/2017 at 3:25 PM, Rob Osborn said:
A mans place is out working, providing for his family as much as he is able to do.
And being a loving, present father. An example for his sons about who he should grow into. An example for his daughters about what to expect from the men in their lives. The place of a father is in the lives of his family. Money is always secondary. We need it to survive. We need love to thrive. We need good, strong men in the home as much as we need loving, compassionate mothers. That is my feminism.
- Sunday21, Maureen and Just_A_Guy
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3
Why Feminism is Bad
in LDS Gospel Discussion
Posted
I have to bow out of this conversation because I'm feeling attacked and defensive, as I'm sure many others are, and we can't have good, respectful discussions when people feel at war. Lets remember each other's worth as children of God, even if we disagree about political or philosophical questions. Feminism isn't a destructive force in society, like the original poster said. It's just a label for a political ideology that focuses on gender inequality, and how we can fix that. Please understand that many faithful Church Members are feminists, and don't lump us all in with extreme, militant feminists. Look for a MormonHub article about this from me in the future.