brotherofJared

Nope. I don't like homosexuals generally. I believe they have an agenda and that it is evil and pernicious. It has nothing to do with compassion. I'll reserve further comment until I see where you're going with this. Normalization is, by definition, making everything the same. That's not what I'm doing. Accepting that there are differences is not bringing everything into the same state. That is not what I'm saying either. I never intended to polarize the US and THEM as being straight and gay. The US is those who judge that something is wrong with others, if for no other reason than that they are different from us. The US can be gays who say there is something wrong with straight heterosexuals. The problem isn't sexual orientation. This applies whenever we undertake to judge others. To judge righteously is to judge the action. To judge unrighteously is to judge the person's weaknesses. This latter judgment leads to prejudice and bigotry (might be the same thing) and to class people and claims false statements like same-gender attraction is a disease that can be cured. It prevents those who have such issues who are confused and uncertain to withdraw and fear the society they exist in. Sometimes the escape is to find people who will accept them as they are, and those people might have an agenda, or to simply escape life altogether. At that point, the problem is now on those who judge, even if they did so innocently, not knowing that their words pierced the lost and confused. I like my superhero shows. It bothers me that they insist, to be PC, that every show must have characters that portray open gay relationships. I believe that is unnecessary and I believe that doing so is pushing an agenda. I am vocal about my objection. What the shows portray is not that it's normal to have these feelings. They portray that it's normal to act on these feelings. If acting on feelings is the only justification one needs to act on them and it's okay, then Vort's list of "wrongs" would make for some very interesting shows. I'd be afraid to turn on the TV ever again. My point is, that it is us who need to stop saying that there is something wrong with others. It doesn't matter what's wrong with them. Our efforts would be much better focused on what's wrong with us because we can do something about that. I know the path to Christ doesn't change. It is the individuals choice to take that path regardless of what's wrong with them. I feel that being the example, that accepting others for what they are has a much better chance of success than does judging them for what they are. ---------------- I crossed posts. Scrolling up and down to add comments is a little awkward. Good example. Not all of us can see. And when that doesn't happen, something is wrong. Can you make that person see? No. So who has to change how they respond to that person? The blind? or the person who has what God intended? Then we should stop treating as if it was sinful or even as something that can be fixed.

So, what is the telestial kingdom? Salvation or damnation? Is it not relative? For those in outer darkness, would it not be salvation and for those in the Celestial world, would it not be damnation?

It appears that "hell" is not outer darkness which seems to be quite clear from the scriptures you quote since one can graduate from hell to a telestial glory, but not one can leave outer darkness.

But saying something is wrong with them is okay. Got it. Do you, by any chance, know what that sin is? What sin am I placing on us? If we said there was nothing wrong with them, then I wouldn't have started down this path. No. The fact is, there is nothing wrong with them. We aren't the judges of them and the person they are. I have no problem with judging what they do. But saying something is wrong with them is a judgment we are not equipped to make. I am not suggesting that we do nothing because nothing is wrong. I believe I was quite clear that I don't know what to do about it if there is anything we can do. I'm perfectly fine with this and I recognize it, but the only thing we can do anything about is us, not them. autistic children cannot function in society entirely alone, most often. What's wrong with them is not the same. The teenager is the responsibility of the parent. Often it is the parent that is the cause that the kid's messed up, but we can't do much about it. Parents often inflicted their children with the challenges they will meet later in life. This is not the same. Absolutely correct. Actions are wrong, People are not. "That is wrong" is fine when it's associated with action. That statement is quite different from "there is something wrong with that person". And I'll agree that something is wrong with the person, but we don't know how to fix them or to fix it, whatever is wrong. We barely know how to fix ourselves and generally, fail at it. Why then would we try to fix someone else?

I define self-righteousness as finding the mote in another person's eye. Righteousness is finding the mote in our own eye and being blind to everyone else's.

I am not aware that I am judging anyone. If anyone here feels that my argument is about them then they judge themselves. I'm only presenting a case and arguing one side. If no one here wants to hear the other side then they have not only judged themselves, they have defined themselves. Why are you making this about me? I took a statement and said it was not true. I didn't make about them. You have now made this personal. This is the limit. I do not expect an answer. Please don't make me defend myself, it would bring the war that started in heaven into this thread then it won't be about that war, it will be that war. Have I not made my position clear? What have I said to offend you or anyone on this board? Frankly, I am new here. I'm not certain what the politics are here. I realize I have waded in over my head but I cannot find a way to escape this topic. I am not wrong. Shall I just leave?

Well, if you are seeing I the same sense at a child with scoliosis, then I stand corrected. But personally I believe that for the child it is that way until an adult changes it with his bigotry. Would the blind man ever think whose fault it was that he was blind, his parents or something he did before being born, if no one asked that question? I think not. The fault for such conclusions lay squarely on the shoulders of the unrighteous judge and they pierce the hearts of the innocent, doing more damage than the affliction (speaking only of those that can be corrected). I am astounded at the resistance this topic is meeting here. It reminds me of my first trip the Utah. Before I arrived, I had vision of Zion, the pure in heart of one mind but that was quickly dispelled. Zion is not yet on the earth and when it comes, it will not be to Utah.

Fine, but eternal damnation is a relative term, it appears. Damnation is separation from God and everyone who obtains a telestial glory will be separated from both the Father and the Son. It is not necessary for them to be cast into outer darkness to fulfill this scripture.

This part is easy to understand. I am perfectly aware that Gods have always existed. There are, however; things that have existed before the Gods connected spirit and element. Indeed. that limitation will be removed after the resurrection and judgment ... or is it judgment and resurrection?

Good question. In really, they never began because they always were. If we find a point where Gods became flesh and then we can determine a point in eternity when something changed. One of them was first. That is the point that I would like to know how He did it. That, for me, is the place I want to pin the tail on the donkey. For now, I am blindfolded and, even if I was close, I wouldn't know how close until the blindfold is removed.

So, as I understand it, normal is determined by popular vote. It's not normal by virtue of involving only a small minority. Could there be anything more untrue? Mormons are a small minority, Does that make us not normal? I'm not sure how you came to the decision that same-sex attraction only affects a small minority. Are you including girls in the group of same-sex attraction that is small? Many people, don't think twice about two girls dancing with each other, even at church dances (I know someone here is going to defend that, and when they do, the ought to really think about what they're doing). If it's okay for girls to do it, wouldn't it also be okay for guys to do it? Just because many people think something is okay, doesn't make it okay and the other way around. there is a huge difference between life threatening illness and sexual attraction. It is not now nor was it ever an illness. Heart diseases can be reduced by lifestyle, likewise acting on attractions that are self-damning and illogical can be kept within the proper bounds if one follows a certain lifestyle. The problem is that treating the patient like they are the problem or that something is wrong with them, is not going to be conducive to living within in the bounds of that lifestyle. No one is going to make it to exaltation alone. Alienating a group because they have an "abnormal" weakness is a weapon which Satan employees very effectively here. It runs rampant in the church and it is mostly unchecked. I have a saying: It will be harder for the righteous to get into heaven that it would be put a camel through the eye of a needle. The most difficult thing for the righteous is to abstain from judging others. It is even worse for those who think they are righteous. If we are going to judge, we need to make sure it is right, because if it is wrong, then the greater sin will be on the person passing judgment. We just need to make sure we judge the deed and not the person.

Addiction is not the same as weakness. Weaknesses are given to us, additictions we go out of our way to acquire. Often times we stumble into our weaknesses entirely by accident.

Thanks for proving my point. Are there emojis on this site?

That's my point. those with same-gender attraction are normal. There is nothing wrong with them.

Right. And God made those poor people work that way. Now, is that creation good? Should we try to change it? Fix it? or should we try to get along with it just like we do with people who can't hear or see?

Principle also requires judgment. The only time when right and wrong is cut and dried is when there isn't a principle involved. Even, "thou shalt not kill" requires judgement. The only commandment that was cut and dried, off the top of my head, is "Of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou shall not eat." Then in a clarifying statement, "remember, I forbid it." In addition, there were other statements that indicated that they could eat it, but if they did, they would die. Principle takes a lot of explaining and wisdom.

Great weapons, I'm sure. Sounds like a righteous arsenal (yes, I'm being sarcastic). I see you gave plenty of explanation on how the weapons of Lucifer are used. How about a little explanation on how these defenses are used. Exactly what do they combat? How does the Atonement combat genderism? See, I have a problem when the righteous rise up with their Bible in hand to put down the wicked when they give no thought to themselves. Here is a weapon I think works very effectively: Keeping the Sabbath day Holy (actually, just going to church and partaking fo the sacrament). It doesn't really do much about society and their assault on the family, but it sure does a lot about me and how I deal with my own family. I don't understand what we think we're going to do to stop the onslaught. Prop 8 passed and then got shut down in the courts. The few overcame the many. It didn't matter what society wanted or was willing to accept as the norm. In the early days of the LDS church, racism was rampant. It was rampant throughout the United States. It was a lucrative business. People made money dealing in slaves and making money off of the sweat of other men's brows. Did we do anything about it then? No. It was not something men could fix. It wasn't something the church could fix. God had to fix it. Is genderism something man can fix? No. Sure, we do what we can, but it isn't in laying the blame on the person who has that weakness. It's not their fault. We resist where we can, but; try not to make victims of the weak or the afflicted. Don't pigeonhole a person who has same-gender attraction issues with those who push genderism.

I know it's not the issue of genderism. Genderism, as I stated before is pigeonholing groups of people. It is a pseudo-science with a design effort to reduce the stress in society that is created by people who think there is something wrong with the effeminate male or the masculine female. I restate my case. There is nothing wrong with them, physical or psychological (except as created by those who think there is something wrong with them). I started down this wrong when I read the statement "those poor hermaphrodites". For me, this alluded to those poor gays and those poor lesbians and those poor transgender people. There is nothing poor about them. Yes. The actions of those who press genderism on us may be causing problems. We should direct our attention to their actions, not at the people they pretend to be helping.

No to all of the above. You don't get to pick and choose your weaknesses and neither do others. They didn't pick them. Desire or attraction is a weakness which we all have to deal with. When we act on attractions that would result in sin, then and only then does an attraction become a problem.

Not sure where you got Lucifer's lust. Lucifer's motives were spelled out. He thought he had a better plan. It seems only right that if it was better, that he should get the honor. Satan's plan didn't have a redeemer because it didn't need one. No one would sin or be able to sin, so why have a redeemer? I'm pretty sure, Lucifer had no intention of dying for anyone.

Well. I think you answered your own question. "philosophies of men" is a pretty broad blanket and could cover everything from Greek mythology to paganism (oops, same thing). The church was corrupted from within not from outside influences... at least, not directly.

Oh please. Let's just stick with loving the sinner and not the sin and we'll be okay. There is nothing wrong with the person who has to deal with these attractions.

Something is out of the norm. But this is something that we have found an acceptable means to overcome where the person can function in society without much issue. It does not make the person any less of a person because of it. And neither does having same-sex attraction. I disagree. We don't assume that there is something wrong with the person because we accept and understand this. What we usually come to conclusion of is, this person can't hear, is deaf. We don't assume that this person is trying to push his agenda on us. Indeed. this is what happens when we know how to function in the same society with them. That is because we don't know how to function in the same society with them. I think you are talking about my paragraph, but I'm not sure. We aren't talking about spiritual worth, we are talking about Satan's ongoing war. One side says, there is something wrong with them. They need to be fixed (Ouch. No pun intended). I'm saying there is nothing wrong with them. We need to be fixed (again, no pun intended). I have no problem defending what defines a family, that is of great spiritual worth. I think, however; that we must find a way to function better in society as this is not going to go away. It never has and never will. We do great spiritual harm by defining it as being something that is wrong.

Correct.

Who is to say how things should work? You? me? Why are you right when you say same-sex attraction is wrong? and the other person wrong when they say, I should be able to act on my attractions? How people behave in society is, after all, a social decision. I accept that. What bothers me is when the few, decide that society no longer knows what's best for them as in when Prop 8 in California was overturned.