clbent04

What am I? It attacks others, but it doesn’t attack you. The flame of life

I think I already know the answer to this question, but if anyone has any context to add around some of my thoughts here I would be interested. I’m wondering about our individualism and unique identities that make us who we are, and how us trying to be at one with God and one another affects that individualism, and how we have and will exist as individuals. Does the goal of us wanting to become one with God have anything to do with us losing our individual identities? If we all are to become one with God, overcoming and replacing our own wills to His, would we somehow merge together in more than just purpose once we return to God? How did we exist as intelligences prior to God’s involvement of organizing us? Did becoming spirit children of God give us our individualism as we know and experience it in our mortal state? Could we have existed as one big mass of intelligence before God’s involvement where individualism was not as we currently understand it? Could God of separated us out as intelligences for the purpose of bringing us here on Earth to see if we would unite with each other once more under a common goal of obtaining Eternal Life? I know the Church supports the idea that our gender is an eternal characteristic to who we are, so there’s some insight at least to how we have and always will exist as individuals. One philosophical thought I read somewhere is we all are the same person, but act independently and differently from each other because of the unique circumstances we are given. If we were to have identical circumstances, we would behave the exact same way. Given that no two individuals in this world have the exact same circumstances, we see how vastly different the behavior of this one person can be. That is why we are to love our neighbors as ourselves, because we are one in the same only with different circumstances. I don’t personally believe this, but it’s an interesting thought. Kind of a random post, just curious if anyone has come across any teachings in the Church that shed more light on our unique identifies.

I think @zil cleared this one up for me. Just as God has always given us the ability to choose, He would have given us a choice to remain as intelligences or become His spirit children (that’s assuming of course we had some level of cognitive ability at the time to make choices). God clearly is the greater being among us, and it’s His righteous desire to increase our potential. He did not organize us to increase His glory, but for the righteous cause to make us greater than we could ever become ourselves. When the time comes when we receive further revelation as to how we existed prior to God’s involvement, I think it will only increase our sense of appreciation towards the Lord.

Good talk

I don’t think asking a question is negative

How does a third of the host of Heaven experience pain without bodies? How do they experience bitterness and anger?

Ok I’ll bite. Why can’t I see it?

Good outline. I could agree with that reasoning

I think we have all the color we need to fill up the blank canvas with emotional pain. I still don’t see how physical pain is necessary

There is emotional pain, and there is physical pain. All I’m saying is I don’t think physical pain is necessary to learn and have meaning. Emotional pain in itself helps us see everything you’re describing

What kind of invitation would you be waiting for? Would you have to hear the voice of the Lord say to you verbatim what he said to the man in Luke 18:22?

I interpret Luke 18:22 to be applicable to anyone ready to take their dedication to the Lord to the next level. If the higher order is the Law of Consecration, are we not all meant to have the goal of separating ourselves from our material possessions? Did Jesus’s disciples not straight away leave their professions when they were called? Are we each meant to receive a formal face-to-face invitation from the Lord to quit our own agendas and follow Him, or can we accept that calling after feeling compelled to do so reading the scriptures?

I think you identified part of my problem. It could be related to self-worth. Whenever I read this passage I feel as if it’s the Lord talking directly to me: Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me. (Luke 18:22) But here I am, too scarred to sell off everything I have and dedicate myself to God full time, to be part of the solution rather than part of the problem. I’m part of the problem I see with this world, the self-interested and selfish bunch that many of us are. We dedicate most of our time and effort to sustain and build our own households, rather than being out there in the world succoring our brother and sisters who are in greater need. For many years I reflected on if I would ever be strong enough to heed Jesus's call, to sell off my possessions and dedicate myself full time to His work. I’m nowhere close to that. I like having a job where I have the means to never have to worry about where I’ll find my next meal. I like being financially secure. But this conflicts with my belief system, and my view of myself, and ultimately jades my view of everyone in this world who could heed Jesus’s call but are timid and luke-warm like me

I just want to understand exactly what he did for us, and if we really are better off now than we were as intelligences.

I’m saying intelligences were organized, not spirit children. Spirit children were created. 22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones; (Abrahman 3:22)

Okay, I guess we don’t have a definite answer as to whether or not we had a choice to remain as intelligences. The keyword I used to make this assumption is “organized.” God organized us. It doesn’t say he convened with us if was it even possible to communicate with us back then. It’s just a thought I had loosely based on the fragmented information we have. I’m not saying we would of been nothing but happy remaining as intelligences, I’m just questioning if we would be happier overall than we are under God’s design.

Fair point

I’m trying to decide if it’s a test or a trap

We were given a choice to have bodies and come to Earth, or exist without bodies. We were not given the choice of becoming spirit children of God. Body or no body, everyone is a spirit child of God. What if we were happy buzzing around as intelligences? Where was the option to be left alone as intelligences?

God is the Father of our spirits, but he is not the Father of our being, nor does He seem to be the Father of our sentience. The fact we existed prior to God means we were somehow brought into existence without Him, that we functioned as intelligences prior to His involvement, but how we functioned is unknown. How much did we experience as intelligences? As for the Atonement, there is a relationship between nature and the spirit. As the laws of nature are rooted in truth, could there not be some overlap of spiritual and natural laws? Could the Atonement also satisfy a natural law that prevents imperfect beings from being in the presence of God?

I think you’re getting at the reasoning of us needing to experience sorrow to appreciate joy, correct? I don’t think physical pain is necessary to understand the spectrum of good and bad. Whose to say we didn’t have both good and bad experiences as intelligences?

To hold in high regard, to express gratitude

That’s just it though. Obtaining bodies is essential to our eternal progression under God’s order, under His design. Without being able to compare and contrast our previous state to where we are now, whose to say having bodies is really that much better? Maybe we were happy as intelligences doing whatever it is we were doing. Whose to say we didn’t interact with each other back then? Whose to say we didn’t have a sense of community/family/love? Whose to say we didn’t have purpose? Thanks for recommending Dr. Peterson’s Series. Is there a particular takeaway from the Series that stuck out to you?

Oh I see what you did there ?

Part of what I’m having trouble wrapping my head around is our relationship with God. God, our creator, or more accurately our organizer, plucked us out from somewhere unknown and we in turn are to worship Him eternally? The act of bringing us together is worthy of infinite praise? I guess it’s hard to know how praiseworthy God’s actions really were without knowing the kind of state we were in prior to His involvement. We were “intelligences” already in existence, but how we existed is unknown. Without knowing what it was like before God came into the picture leaves me wondering how much greater our current circumstances are in comparison.What of our relationship with Jesus Christ? The concept of the Atonement and necessity of a Redeemer. Why is it necessary? I understand the religious answer. But which cosmic laws require us to have a Redeemer? What’s driving the necessity of us having a Savior to begin with? The concept of having a Redeemer becomes more foreign when your not sure why it’s necessary to begin with