clbent04

I didn’t mean to come across as more knowledgeable than God. I’m trying to understand why the best way for us to learn to love God and our neighbors involves us spending the majority of our time on survival

But why is it the best way for us to learn? Do you think the amount of time it takes us to survive is to help us appreciate even more how we use our discretionary time, and to make our discretionary that much more meaningful when used in serving the Lord?

Good examples with your friend in Russia, and Amulek supporting Alma. Maybe I do need to change my threshold of what I consider selfish like you did here. I said we should focus the majority of our time and resources on others, while you changed it to using the majority of our non-working hours to the work of the ministry. But couldn’t God have created this world where the majority of our time isn’t spent on survival, and sustaining and building our own households? Why does the format of this life naturally force us to spend most of our time on our own households rather than integrating with the rest of our spirit brothers and sisters here on Earth? Why is the format the way it is? Why do we only have so much discretionary time to interact and integrate with others outside our own households?

Is it perception that survival in this life requires us to spend the greater portion of our time and resources on our own households, and not on others? That’s not perception. It’s reality. Out of the 1,000 or however many people I personally know, maybe 2 at best are using the greater portion of their time and resources on others outside their own household. So how do I change the way I see the world when the problem I see with it is factual?

I don't know if being a homeless, traveling missionary should be a goal for all of us, but it's a righteous endeavor for anyone ready and willing. There is more than one life's journey back to the Kingdom of God, be it you spent your time as a parent raising your kids to the ways of God, you were a lifelong, full-time missionary, or you held strong to the end in a non-religious affiliated career but were a righteous steward with what you were given. For those ready and willing to be homeless, traveling missionaries, I believe their treasure in Heaven will be more secured for them than it is for others who have to deal with the temptations of putting too much focus on possessions and wealth. "And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God." (Matthew 19:24) As for the homeless, traveling missionary tangent I got started on, I first focused this thread on how this world is a dog-eat-dog world because we have the need to survive and subsequently use the greater portion of our time and resources on ourselves and our own little empires, not on someone else. This has me down as I would like to live in a world where we are more prone to sharing, a world where we loved our neighbors more, a world where we didn't focus the majority of our time to sustain and build our own little empires. It was what you said to me that got me thinking how loving myself might even be a necessary precursor to loving my neighbor. Then I asked why I don't love myself? And it's because of the very reason I despise the selfishness of this world. I contribute to that selfishness by focusing primarily on myself and my own little empire with the limited time and resources that I have. So then I took it to the next level asking myself what I would need to do to love myself. And the answer came that I would be a homeless, traveling missionary, someone who is completely removed from the material things of the world, and strictly focuses on others and furthering the work of the Lord. Granted, I've already made the disclaimer that I'm nowhere close to being personally ready and willing to accept such a call. I still have too many vices that would prove me ineffective as a missionary. But to love myself, I feel as if I need to remove myself from my current situation of having my energy and efforts primarily focused on the benefit of my own household.

I acknowledged @Grunt 's "misery" comment wasn't in direct response to something I posted, but I wanted clarification from Grunt himself if that's how he viewed me too since that comment agreed with other negative comments he's made to me in the past. Grunt has had a misconstrued perception of me every since I joined this website, and I don't understand why. He's questioned me several times what the intent is of my posting rather than just help answer a question I find interesting or important to me, and wrongly accused me of things like I'm just seeking attention and not really wanting to improve. Why does Grunt continually question my motive? Just give people the benefit of the doubt. Not that hard. Grunt by his own admission said he's not posting on my questions to help me personally. So why post at all one might ask? Especially when Grunt has postured himself as this helpful guy? Is it to help other people besides me who might have the same exact question? So why help them and give them the benefit of the doubt with their questioning but not me? Doesn't make sense. And who wants "help" anyway from someone you already know has a jaded view of you? Why does Grunt think I want to answer his questions after he's been negative and judgmental of me? Earlier in the thread, I informed Grunt that due his collective negative comments he's made to me in the past, I'd prefer if he didn't post on my questions anymore to avoid further contention between us. He chose to ignore this request, as is his right since this is a public forum, so I guess contention it is. Seems like there's enough topics on this website to where we could steer clear of each other, but I guess not. I don't really post anywhere but on my own threads so seems like it would be easy for us to avoid each other if he wanted. I normally wouldn't even bother with addressing negative comments from someone like Grunt, but I thought maybe I could appeal to the side of him that likes to "help" people, especially when I told him his "help" is not helpful to me, and I don't find any value with what he has to say. And not saying he hasn't helped others. I see he posts quite frequently. Great for the people to whom he gives the benefit of doubt, and who can tell he has a genuine interest in helping. My view of this website is it's meant to be a positive place to share topics surrounding the Mormon religion. I have chosen to disclose personal experience and questions I seek answers to, or even thoughts where I am seeking perspective from other members for the purpose of elevating my own thinking. This is my honest intent which I have repeated several times to Grunt. So with any public forum, you just got to take the bad with the good.

Job 15:6 "Thine own mouth condemneth thee, and not I..."

And around and around we go...

Not a goal for everyone. Just those ready and willing. It’s like serving a standard 2-year Church mission. You don’t have to serve, but you and often those you come in contact with will be blessed if you do. Living in poverty is not the main focus. The main focus is sharing the message of Christ. So living as a traveling, homeless missionary is ONE very effective way we can further God’s work. We can align ourselves to God by taking other avenues, so maybe the homeless, traveling missionary isn’t the path for everyone. But I think it could be the path for at least some of us, some of the noble ones among us

I don’t think it is a commandment. It’s a higher way of living to align ourselves closer to God for anyone ready and willing. I don’t think being a homeless, traveling missionary is reserved for those select men we read of in the New Testamnent. Anyone can accept the call who is ready and willing

How did we not exist prior to God? In the Book of Abraham, God didn’t organize us as non-existent beings, he organized us as “intelligences.” We were already classed as intelligences prior to His involvement. And what is the difference between natural laws and the laws of nature? Seem to be the same thing to me.

But that’s just it. Why do you think I want to answer your questions when I already know you have an unfounded bias against me?

So just to be clear, you post on my questions not to help me answer my own question, but to help someone else who may have the same question. Makes a lot of sense considering you’ve misjudged me by my questions, but yet if someone else has the same question you’re here to help

No harm done, just a misunderstanding that doesn’t need to be hashed out any further

Alrighty then. There you have it

If your intent of posting is to help others as you said, I’d prefer if you didn’t contribute anything further to my questions as most of your comments come across as negative and judgemental to me. If your real intent is to help others, I think you would respect that knowing that I don’t find any value with what you say to me. This is a public forum so you’re free to completely ignore this request and we can continue sparring as we have, but maybe you’ll focus your efforts elsewhere knowing someone else may be more appreciative of your insights

I’m asking @Grunt if this is how he thinks of me as well since it jibes with other negative comments he’s made to me before. A simple answer would clear any confusion I have about why he posts on my questions, but no answer

I’m asking you if that’s how you view me since you posted it on this thread along with other comments you made to me in the past.

I was responding to you when you gave me examples of how you live your life in relation to Luke 18:22, and I was trying to explain how I didn’t see it as the same thing. I then asked you what kind of invitation you would need to receive to live as a homeless, traveling missionary (or at least that was the intent of my question which I could have explained better) and you replied saying you thought you had made it clear to me already. But you were just reiterating how you live your life in relation to Luke 18:22, so instead of trying to refocus the conversation, I just left it at agree to disagree

Im not ignoring anything, I’m just addressing what remains questionable to me. I’m reading and thinking about everything you’re writing. Some things I agree with, others I don’t

I never said I didn’t. I’m just wondering why you continue to post on my questions if you first say your time is better spent elsewhere than with the misery-seeking likes of me. Make up your mind

Thankfully, most people on this website provide valuable answers to the questions I ask. That’s why I’ve continued asking questions I have. I don’t have to constantly explain myself as to what my intentions are with the questions I ask. Some feedback has even been so spot on, it’s changed my own way of thinking for the better. If you see me as someone who is seeking misery, I won’t be offended at all if you decide to grace someone else with your “help.”

I’m still having trouble reconciling this issue in my mind. Yes, selling off everything we own to do nothing but share the message of Christ is an extraordinary invitation of the Lord, and we may have differing opinions on whether or not this invitation is reserved for those who have apostle-like status. But I don’t equate this with your examples, because separating ourselves from the material things of this world should be a goal we should all have. It’s a righteous endeavour for everyone to seek that which is spiritual over that which is temporal. Killing someone as commanded by God is not a righteous endeavor for everyone. As far as being in conflict with selling everything we own and providing for our families, I would say just as the Lord provides for his servants in the field, He would provide for the families of the servants that are on His errands. Why would the Lord be limited to providing just for his servants in the field? 26 Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they? (Matthew 6:26) I think Luke 18:22 and Matthew 6:26 are meant for all of us. I’m not saying I’m anywhere close to having the level of faith requisite to accept such an invitation to sell my belongings and pick up the cross, but I think it’s a commitment we are to work towards. I would have nothing but respect and admiration for someone so dedicated to the Lord. Maybe it’s my own lack of spiritual development and commitment to the Lord that leaves me feeling inadequate and despaired. I have so far to go to get to that level it seems overwhelming. Even my greatest examples I look up to (most of whom are leaders in Church) haven’t sold their possessions, so where does that put me? Do we have as much faith today as people did back when Christ was living on the Earth? Where are the homeless, traveling missionaries today?

I think we interpret Luke 18:22 differently, as well as it’s applicability

Wow thanks. Great references. Quotes from askgramps I like: Endless variety is stamped upon the works of God’s hands. There are no two productions of nature, whether animal, vegetable or mineral, that are exactly alike, and all are crowned with a degree of polish and perfection that cannot be obtained by ignorant man in his most exquisite mechanical productions. Man’s machinery makes things alike; God’s machinery gives to things which appear alike a pleasing difference. — Journal of Discourses, Vol.9, Pg.369 – Pg.370, Brigham Young, August 31, 1862 Elder B. H. Roberts once expressed the process in these words: “The man who so walks in the light and wisdom and power of God, will at the last, by the very force of association, make the light and wisdom and power of God his own—weaving those bright rays into a chain divine, linking himself forever to God and God to him. This [is] the sum of Messiah’s mystic words, ‘Thou, Father, in me, and I in thee’—beyond this human greatness cannot achieve.” Plotinus taught that each star existed for the sake of the whole, to which it contributed its individuality. Each has its particular part to play; by being uniquely itself it can make a contribution of maximum value. — Hugh Nibley, Old Testament and Related Studies, Chapter 6